"Womans body" seen in Kitchen through Kitchen window (PS Adams)...

[mike tesko]

If these logs have been introduced as a grounds for appeal, can the CCRC not call on the firearms team to make statements? I'm not convinced that Sheila was downstairs but I do think the logs need explaining because there is room for doubt there. If I was on the CCRC I'd want to know what they meant.

The CCRC have looked into this and taken statements and to be honest is just going over old ground and was proved that the officer made the mistake saying he thought it was a woman and thats when it was written one dead male and female when in fact it was only one dead male.

How do you know they've looked into it? I haven't seen anything from the CCRC regarding that issue.

That was one of Bambers many fantastic new evidence received by the CCRC and was also looked into at the 2002 appeal.

It never ceases to amaze me of all this new fantastic evidence which ultimately amounts to zilch.

Where is this evidence that Jeremy didn't murder his family because I have yet to see anything which comes anywhere near.  The evidence provided to the trial albeit circumstantial does in fact provide an extremely valid basis for a conviction and has in fact withstood the test of time these last 26 odd years.

I wonder do those who advocate on behalf of Jeremy really know what they are doing now or are they so influenced by sentiment that they cannot see the wood for the trees anymore?

That's true and all this other new evidence is BS too about Taff Jones notebook etc and SC was still alive because they were all dead when the Police got there and that's why JB has never made a fuss about these new finds cause he knows it's false and he left them all dead as the Police found them. By his few supporters keep making up these stupid clams, they really do undermine his case.

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What a load of garbage - police records indicate that Sheila was supposedly found dead in the kitchen, and that she committed suicide by 7:45am, before the raid team even got upstairs at the farmhouse, so why do you suggest that a handful of Bambers supporters keep making up these stupid claims - you should be directing your accusations at the police who kept these records...

Its simple...

Why don't EP just release all the documentation which they are deliberately withholding, including all the photographs that they don't want Jeremy or his legal team to see, and then we will see who is telling the truth, the police ? or Jeremy and his supporters?

[sandy]

So why are they refusing to release these alleged documents even t the CCRC?  I thought the CCRC had the power to investigate any issues or is it that the CCRC have viewed the documents already and are of the opinion that they have no value?

[mike tesko]

So why are they refusing to release these alleged documents even t the CCRC?  I thought the CCRC had the power to investigate any issues or is it that the CCRC have viewed the documents already and are of the opinion that they have no value?

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My own personal view is that the issue of the blood in the silencer has not been addressed properly...

I think CCRC are of the opinion that a silencer was used during the shootings, at least at the time of the non fatal shot to the side of the neck (PV/20)...

[Roch]

So why are they refusing to release these alleged documents even t the CCRC?  I thought the CCRC had the power to investigate any issues or is it that the CCRC have viewed the documents already and are of the opinion that they have no value?

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My own personal view is that the issue of the blood in the silencer has not been addressed properly...

I think CCRC are of the opinion that a silencer was used during the shootings, at least at the time of the non fatal shot to the side of the neck (PV/20)...

Mike - I can't match your answer up with Sandy's question? 

Sandy - Do you not think Essex Police have been given so much time in this game of 'cat and mouse' they have had room to outmanoeuvre the CCRC? Several years ago, Fiona Mactaggart stated that the CCRC is "no-body's patsy".  Why would Essex Police allow the CCRC to view stuff that they don't want Bamber's defence team to view? (If they have in fact allowed the CCRC to view stuff?)  If the CCRC is no-body's patsy then why all the semantics about who owns the negatives?  Why should it matter who owns the negatives?  Why should it matter if the negatives are properly examined by Sutherst or others?  Why is that such an issue for Essex Police?

[smiffy]

I have wondered about how ridiculous it sounded when reading the firearms officer stating about opening the kitchen window ..in case they needed an escape route in an emergency...it does not make sense to me.
The door to outside was close by ..a far far better and quicker escape route.
So why open the windows??? How about because something else that  NEEDED to escape...something that may arouse suspicion to those not "in the know". How about the smell of a recently discharged firearm!!!   ...The "emergency escape route" claim purely being a cover in case anyone asked why the kitchen window got opened.

[smiffy]

Adams allegedly reports receiving a radio message (he was not up close with the firearms team) telling him that a female body had been seen in the kitchen.
He also claims that shortly after the team entered he heard that it was a man who had been wrongly identified.

LETS SEE...are these 2 claims likely to be true or complete rubbish.
Surely both messages would have been by radio (the first is spoken of and the second message is implied. So these messages should be on the radio log should they not? They are not in them.
So either Adams is telling outright lies on the matter to cover up a police screw up or there is another explanation.
One possiblity is that the firearms team were using radios set to another wavelength/frequency the others were not using ....does anyone know about such things ?
If that is a correct assumption.....it still fails to address why this mistake was nor relayed to others and how continued mistakes were passed by radio if the firearms team already knew the answers.

One issue that creeps in is that Adams claims this mistaken identification of a female for a male was made shortly after entry.....this contradicts the other radio log messages that were recorded as they only tie up with 2 bodies being found on entry  plus later on a further 3 bodies being found.

[smiffy]

Looking at Adams statement a bit more...
questions arise about "the kitchen door"

he describes the kitchen door under the belief in error as being an external door...which is wrong.
he describes the kitchen door as being forced....well if he thought the kitchen door was an external door then this refers to just the outside door and not a real door leading to the kitchen.

gosh ...this bloke seems incompetent...
why is he screwing up his evidence...was something playing on his mind...a need to cover up ...so that he misses giving out proper details and ends up misleading the reader of the statement.

does he really know what he is on about ?

does this introduce a false idea that force was needed to enter the kitchen when in fact it was not?...the force described would have been upon an external door and not the kitchen door!

[smiffy]

Checking through what Shaw reports there is mention so special radios being despatched to the scene sometime well prior to the firearms team entering WHF.
These would most likely be for the use of the firearms team only and would be what I would expect.
This does support it being possible Adams did receive a radio message of a womans body being seen through the kitchen window as claimed and why it does not appear on the general radio logs if the firearms team were using the special radios.

[mike tesko]

Why was commander-ship of the firearms operation at the scene, led by PS Adams between 5am and 8:15am, and thereafter, led by PI Montgomery, from 8:15am, onward, if all the bodies inside whf were found in the places they ended up being photographed in by PC Bird (SOC) by 10 am?

My understanding is that there was some animosity between Adams, and Montgomery, over this feature?

[smiffy]

ah so shortly after the firearms team enter the kitchen they inform (must be by radio) that the aforementioned female body was in fact a man

well what would shortly mean...  2 or 3 minutes...maybe even 5 minutes...but not 20+ minutes which seems to be the case to explain other radio messages.

while the firearms team may have used a set of special radio's to inform Adams the same person had to have been using other radios to inform other police of the two bodies --a murder and suicide and a further 3 bodies.

it does not wash that they would be sending contrary messages to outsiders.
it appears Adams claim is a lie...that may be why there are no radio logs for the special radios and/or pii on that issue to cover it up.

[smiffy]

why would Cook be told or think from observing that chairs and tables etc had been moved by police "RUSHING" round the house looking for Sheila.
surely a cautious firearms team would be acting slowly and with care?? unless something spooked them or they knew Sheila was alive and that they may need to act quickly to prevent further loss of life!

[smiffy]

Looking at Adams statement a bit more...
questions arise about "the kitchen door"

he describes the kitchen door under the belief in error as being an external door...which is wrong.
he describes the kitchen door as being forced....well if he thought the kitchen door was an external door then this refers to just the outside door and not a real door leading to the kitchen.

gosh ...this bloke seems incompetent...
why is he screwing up his evidence...was something playing on his mind...a need to cover up ...so that he misses giving out proper details and ends up misleading the reader of the statement.

does he really know what he is on about ?

does this introduce a false idea that force was needed to enter the kitchen when in fact it was not?...the force described would have been upon an external door and not the kitchen door!

Looking more closely at what Adams says .
If the Back Kitchen/Laundry/Lobby window was looked through and a sink observed etc  then an assumption of it being a kitchen window can be made. As the external door leads into this room then the external door can be viewed as being the kitchen door.
Collins assumes and reports he is looking into the kitchen. Adams has also made the connection in his statement by stating the entry was gained by forcing the kitchen door..ie the external one.
Therefore the female body being viewed in this room would be Sheila .

This seems to sort out the issues that didnt make sense in part of Adams statement.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Adams said in his statement that he was told that a woman's body could be seen in the kitchen through the window, but he then said that when the police got into the house he was informed that the body was in fact that of a man.

Is it not possible that the confusion arose about how many bodies were in the kitchen because of this? If there were messages being passed that there was a woman, and then another message that there was a man, it could be interpreted as there being two bodies - a man and a woman when in fact there just one - that of Neville Bamber.

This has always been my assertion too. It is the most logical explanation.
Reading the logs alone does make a strong case for two bodies, but once this context is applied, the confusion is more understandable. They'd identified a woman from the outside, then found a man, so it could very easily sound like there were two bodies.

[lookout]

If Nevill was seated behind the door how could he be seen through the window ?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

If Nevill was seated behind the door how could he be seen through the window ?

Because two policemen looked through the window and saw the body, albeit in strained circumstances.
There is a 3D rendering of the house that demonstrates the angle at which a body could be seen.