Oops, you did it again....

[grahameb]

I am not in the best position to say so much after what I said the other night, Grahame - and I apologize, sincerely!
But I will anyway. To me it seems like most people in fact moderated their own behaviour prior to the forum being so firmly moderated. All those conflicts are new, if I am not mistaken. Could it be that it rubs people the wrong way to be so heavily monitored? It is worth a thought, in my humble opinion. We are grown up people and the feeling of being almost disempowered and afraid of speaking your mind can be frustrating. It is to me anyway.

Well just judge for yourself. You had an example of a thread that was not monitored or moderated and members were just tearing each other apart. Is that what you mean by people moderating themselves. And if people were monitoring themselves then please explain the flood of pm's I received for me to intervene in various ways?
Then when I do intervene, those who are obviously wiser than I complain that I am over monitoring the forum. Like I said. It probably will not be long before I leave for good you recalcitrant lot. I'm just about sick of the sight of you.

[Steve]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

[Roch]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

I agree with this, when an argument breaks out, it should go over to a purpose made thread, which only members can see.  I'm not sure if this is feasible with the forum software but it would protect the integrity of the main forum, in terms of attracting new posters and retaining longstanding members.  On Steve's point about moderation, I would add that it's impossible to please everyone.

[grahameb]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

I agree with this, when an argument breaks out, it should go over to a purpose made thread, which only members can see.  I'm not sure if this is feasible with the forum software but it would protect the integrity of the main forum, in terms of attracting new posters and retaining longstanding members.  On Steve's point about moderation, I would add that it's impossible to please everyone.

I as a global mod cannot do this. I've tried to create forums where guests cannot view. But it is not within my scope as moderator. I agree with you by the way Steve. I've actually said that. This forum has only recently become like this. We have not known this kind of disruption before. So in effect this situation is unique to this point in time. I know we get various members piping up with their own wisdom about how things must be done. Most of these trolls for want of a better word come directly from the facebook guilty page and to say that they are easily recognised is simply not true. On my own forum signforums.com which I jointly owned with a friend we had the capability to fence of certain forums from non members which had to be accessed by a password that was given by one of the moderators. But unfortunately this forum does not appear to have such a facility.

[chochokeira]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

I agree with this, when an argument breaks out, it should go over to a purpose made thread, which only members can see.  I'm not sure if this is feasible with the forum software but it would protect the integrity of the main forum, in terms of attracting new posters and retaining longstanding members.  On Steve's point about moderation, I would add that it's impossible to please everyone.

I agree too, Rocky, these rows put me off coming here and I'm sure they deter others. I've moved beyond annoyance at the rows to being simply bored by them now. Yet even the bored can drawn into these cat fights at times, as I was when I put my two penneth into the mayhem yesterday. Shut these rows away on a forum naughty step somewhere, then it would be so much easier for the mods. This might help alleviate both the troll issue and that Horsey Dave spoke of yesterday: factions who persuade friends to come here simply to cause havoc. I agree with your point about moderation too, every forum I know of has and needs it and it is impossible to please everyone, even part of the time.

[grahameb]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

I agree with this, when an argument breaks out, it should go over to a purpose made thread, which only members can see.  I'm not sure if this is feasible with the forum software but it would protect the integrity of the main forum, in terms of attracting new posters and retaining longstanding members.  On Steve's point about moderation, I would add that it's impossible to please everyone.

I agree too, Rocky, these rows put me off coming here and I'm sure they deter others. I've moved beyond annoyance at the rows to being simply bored by them now. Yet even the bored can drawn into these cat fights at times, as I was when I put my two penneth into the mayhem yesterday. Shut these rows away on a forum naughty step somewhere, then it would be so much easier for the mods. This might help alleviate both the troll issue and that Horsey Dave spoke of yesterday: factions who persuade friends to come here simply to cause havoc. I agree with your point about moderation too, every forum I know of has and needs it and it is impossible to please everyone, even part of the time.

Do you have any suggestions how we might do this Keira? If I shut a thread I get criticiseds. If I let it run I get criticised. No doubt if it were possible to create a "naughty" forum, that will be criticised as well, by those who are obviously wiser than I.

[Steve]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

I agree with this, when an argument breaks out, it should go over to a purpose made thread, which only members can see.  I'm not sure if this is feasible with the forum software but it would protect the integrity of the main forum, in terms of attracting new posters and retaining longstanding members.  On Steve's point about moderation, I would add that it's impossible to please everyone.

I agree too, Rocky, these rows put me off coming here and I'm sure they deter others. I've moved beyond annoyance at the rows to being simply bored by them now. Yet even the bored can drawn into these cat fights at times, as I was when I put my two penneth into the mayhem yesterday. Shut these rows away on a forum naughty step somewhere, then it would be so much easier for the mods. This might help alleviate both the troll issue and that Horsey Dave spoke of yesterday: factions who persuade friends to come here simply to cause havoc. I agree with your point about moderation too, every forum I know of has and needs it and it is impossible to please everyone, even part of the time.

Do you have any suggestions how we might do this Keira? If I shut a thread I get criticiseds. If I let it run I get criticised. No doubt if it were possible to create a "naughty" forum, that will be criticised as well, by those who are obviously wiser than I.

If an admin can't set a forum board up with those permissions, then how about just moving an offending thread to the off topic area, new members are less likely to look there anyway if they are looking for information about the case.

Also don't worry about being criticised, who cares, just ignore it, if people don't like what you do as a moderator then that's their problem, you don't need to respond to them, try not to be so emotionally involved with it all, although I know it's difficult, you need to be thick skinned and above it all.

(sorry I'm offering advice again    )

[chochokeira]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

I agree with this, when an argument breaks out, it should go over to a purpose made thread, which only members can see.  I'm not sure if this is feasible with the forum software but it would protect the integrity of the main forum, in terms of attracting new posters and retaining longstanding members.  On Steve's point about moderation, I would add that it's impossible to please everyone.

I agree too, Rocky, these rows put me off coming here and I'm sure they deter others. I've moved beyond annoyance at the rows to being simply bored by them now. Yet even the bored can drawn into these cat fights at times, as I was when I put my two penneth into the mayhem yesterday. Shut these rows away on a forum naughty step somewhere, then it would be so much easier for the mods. This might help alleviate both the troll issue and that Horsey Dave spoke of yesterday: factions who persuade friends to come here simply to cause havoc. I agree with your point about moderation too, every forum I know of has and needs it and it is impossible to please everyone, even part of the time.

Do you have any suggestions how we might do this Keira? If I shut a thread I get criticiseds. If I let it run I get criticised. No doubt if it were possible to create a "naughty" forum, that will be criticised as well, by those who are obviously wiser than I.

I used the expression 'naughty step' euphemistically. If rows cannot be moved to their own section where only members can see these, if they wish to, there's not much you can do excapt perhaps move these off topic as suggested. Regarding criticism, mods will always be criticised simply because it's impossible to please everyone.

[grahameb]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

I agree with this, when an argument breaks out, it should go over to a purpose made thread, which only members can see.  I'm not sure if this is feasible with the forum software but it would protect the integrity of the main forum, in terms of attracting new posters and retaining longstanding members.  On Steve's point about moderation, I would add that it's impossible to please everyone.

I agree too, Rocky, these rows put me off coming here and I'm sure they deter others. I've moved beyond annoyance at the rows to being simply bored by them now. Yet even the bored can drawn into these cat fights at times, as I was when I put my two penneth into the mayhem yesterday. Shut these rows away on a forum naughty step somewhere, then it would be so much easier for the mods. This might help alleviate both the troll issue and that Horsey Dave spoke of yesterday: factions who persuade friends to come here simply to cause havoc. I agree with your point about moderation too, every forum I know of has and needs it and it is impossible to please everyone, even part of the time.

Do you have any suggestions how we might do this Keira? If I shut a thread I get criticiseds. If I let it run I get criticised. No doubt if it were possible to create a "naughty" forum, that will be criticised as well, by those who are obviously wiser than I.

If an admin can't set a forum board up with those permissions, then how about just moving an offending thread to the off topic area, new members are less likely to look there anyway if they are looking for information about the case.

Also don't worry about being criticised, who cares, just ignore it, if people don't like what you do as a moderator then that's their problem, you don't need to respond to them, try not to be so emotionally involved with it all, although I know it's difficult, you need to be thick skinned and above it all.

(sorry I'm offering advice again    )

Yes I agree with you about moving the thread to off topic. Not sure what ngb would have done, but I think he's going to open the thread again. Not sure I will be here much longer anyway. It's taking up too much of my time. Not sure if JB is worth that much of my time anyway?

[ngb1066]

Trying not to get involved with all this, last time I offered advice it was not welcomed.

But if I could make one open suggestion.

Clearly all this personal conflict between people is not really very much to do with the case itself, I've seen on other boards that they have a forum board or two which guests cannot see, only members can. To avoid putting potential new members off by being able to see all this bickering, perhaps when such discussions arise, they could be moved to a members only board and simply left to run their course?

Just a thought, nothing more than that, but I don't think such threads are healthy for this forums appearance, the sole purpose of the forum is for Mike to explain to as many people as possible the details of the case from his point of view, people seeing these petty squabbles are going to yawn and then have a look on ebay instead. It also appears that heavy moderation is never going to please everybody.

I agree with this, when an argument breaks out, it should go over to a purpose made thread, which only members can see.  I'm not sure if this is feasible with the forum software but it would protect the integrity of the main forum, in terms of attracting new posters and retaining longstanding members.  On Steve's point about moderation, I would add that it's impossible to please everyone.

I agree too, Rocky, these rows put me off coming here and I'm sure they deter others. I've moved beyond annoyance at the rows to being simply bored by them now. Yet even the bored can drawn into these cat fights at times, as I was when I put my two penneth into the mayhem yesterday. Shut these rows away on a forum naughty step somewhere, then it would be so much easier for the mods. This might help alleviate both the troll issue and that Horsey Dave spoke of yesterday: factions who persuade friends to come here simply to cause havoc. I agree with your point about moderation too, every forum I know of has and needs it and it is impossible to please everyone, even part of the time.

Do you have any suggestions how we might do this Keira? If I shut a thread I get criticiseds. If I let it run I get criticised. No doubt if it were possible to create a "naughty" forum, that will be criticised as well, by those who are obviously wiser than I.

If an admin can't set a forum board up with those permissions, then how about just moving an offending thread to the off topic area, new members are less likely to look there anyway if they are looking for information about the case.

Also don't worry about being criticised, who cares, just ignore it, if people don't like what you do as a moderator then that's their problem, you don't need to respond to them, try not to be so emotionally involved with it all, although I know it's difficult, you need to be thick skinned and above it all.

(sorry I'm offering advice again    )

Yes I agree with you about moving the thread to off topic. Not sure what ngb would have done, but I think he's going to open the thread again. Not sure I will be here much longer anyway. It's taking up too much of my time. Not sure if JB is worth that much of my time anyway?

As far as I am concerned I give Grahame my full support in the difficult decisions he had to take last night.  I believe that locking down the thread was a sensible way of trying to close down the bickering which was disrupting the forum.  I have suggested that we now unlock the thread as I personally think that when a thread is locked it attracts attention.  We want this to be forgotten.  If Grahame agrees to the thread being unlocked (and I will not act without his appropval) I will monitor the position and we can lock it down again or even delete it if problems continue.

I hope Grahame does continue as I believe that he has done a good job.  It is a pity that the actions of very few can cause so much disruption.  I still believe that this forum is very useful in explaining the issues in the case.  I hope it can now get back on track.

[Steve]

This isn't criticism of you Grahame, just a general observation and pre-empting what others may think.

If a thread has been locked by a moderator, I'm not sure it's wise or even fair that a moderator then unlocks it so he can post a personal opinion not associated with his moderator role, and then lock it again so that others are unable to respond, I don't think you would win too many over by doing that.

Again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, just an observation, so feel free to ignore me.
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It doesn't matter anyway, it looks like that threads been unlocked.

[ngb1066]

This isn't criticism of you Grahame, just a general observation and pre-empting what others may think.

If a thread has been locked by a moderator, I'm not sure it's wise or even fair that a moderator then unlocks it so he can post a personal opinion not associated with his moderator role, and then lock it again so that others are unable to respond, I don't think you would win too many over by doing that.

Again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, just an observation, so feel free to ignore me.

With Grahame's agreement the locked thread has now been unlocked.  I believe Grahame had no choice other than to lock it last night in order to close down the aggressive exchanges.  I hope the arguments will not erupt again, as it must seriously deter people from participating in the forum.  I urge forum members to raise concerns about the conduct of others in PMs rather than by responding on the forum.  The mods will deal with complaints and in most cases it is far better that this is done privately.
 

[grahameb]

This isn't criticism of you Grahame, just a general observation and pre-empting what others may think.

If a thread has been locked by a moderator, I'm not sure it's wise or even fair that a moderator then unlocks it so he can post a personal opinion not associated with his moderator role, and then lock it again so that others are unable to respond, I don't think you would win too many over by doing that.

Again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, just an observation, so feel free to ignore me.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

It doesn't matter anyway, it looks like that threads been unlocked.

Steve, I didn't unlock it just to post an opinion. Any mod can post on any thread even if it is locked. I may have forgotten that I locked it or had pre-empted ngb's unlocking it. But it certainly wasn't to gain advantage over others.

[Steve]

This isn't criticism of you Grahame, just a general observation and pre-empting what others may think.

If a thread has been locked by a moderator, I'm not sure it's wise or even fair that a moderator then unlocks it so he can post a personal opinion not associated with his moderator role, and then lock it again so that others are unable to respond, I don't think you would win too many over by doing that.

Again, I'm not trying to cause trouble, just an observation, so feel free to ignore me.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

It doesn't matter anyway, it looks like that threads been unlocked.

Steve, I didn't unlock it just to post an opinion. Any mod can post on any thread even if it is locked. I may have forgotten that I locked it or had pre-empted ngb's unlocking it. But it certainly wasn't to gain advantage over others.

Okay fair enough, perhaps I just have an overly active imagination.