Mindset of Jeremy Bamber, at time he was informed, that all his family was dead

[ngb1066]

What about Ralph Bambers service revolver?

[/color]

I have not heard this mentioned before.  Did he have one?  If so where was it kept?  What type of revolver was it?

--------------------

Ralph Bamber worked for British intelligence during the second world war, he was effectively a spy, working behind enemy lines in the middle east as part of a cell......

I accept that he may have retained his service revolver after the war, but is there any suggestion that he still had it at WHF at the time of his death?

---------------------------------------------

I don't have any evidence of this, only the fact that some of the bullet entry wounds found in some of the victims measured half inch in diameter, and that a service revolver could fire bullets that made half inch diameter bullet entry wounds...

A WW2 service revolver would probably have been either .38 or .45 calibre.  A .45 calibre bullet could certainly make a half inch entry wound, and a .38 might do so.  However the damage caused internally would be far more than that caused by a .22 LR rimfire bullet and if there was an exit wound it would also be of a significant size.  The other problem with this is that there was no .45 bullet found at the scene or in any of the bodies. 

I have taken note of your observations on the sizes of the entry wounds elsewhere on this forum and I accept that you may have a point.  Although I have extensive experience of firearms I am not qualified to give a firm view on this.  I believe that it is possible that all the entry wounds were caused by .22 LR rimfire bullets, although I share your surprise at an entry wound as large as half an inch in diameter. If it is part of Jeremy's case that another weapon may have been used this issue is one which should be properly explored by an expert.

[mike tesko]

What about Ralph Bambers service revolver?

[/color]

I have not heard this mentioned before.  Did he have one?  If so where was it kept?  What type of revolver was it?

--------------------

Ralph Bamber worked for British intelligence during the second world war, he was effectively a spy, working behind enemy lines in the middle east as part of a cell......

I accept that he may have retained his service revolver after the war, but is there any suggestion that he still had it at WHF at the time of his death?

---------------------------------------------

I don't have any evidence of this, only the fact that some of the bullet entry wounds found in some of the victims measured half inch in diameter, and that a service revolver could fire bullets that made half inch diameter bullet entry wounds...

A WW2 service revolver would probably have been either .38 or .45 calibre.  A .45 calibre bullet could certainly make a half inch entry wound, and a .38 might do so.  However the damage caused internally would be far more than that caused by a .22 LR rimfire bullet and if there was an exit wound it would also be of a significant size.  The other problem with this is that there was no .45 bullet found at the scene or in any of the bodies. 

I have taken note of your observations on the sizes of the entry wounds elsewhere on this forum and I accept that you may have a point.  Although I have extensive experience of firearms I am not qualified to give a firm view on this.  I believe that it is possible that all the entry wounds were caused by .22 LR rimfire bullets, although I share your surprise at an entry wound as large as half an inch in diameter. If it is part of Jeremy's case that another weapon may have been used this issue is one which should be properly explored by an expert.

------------------

Some weeks later, a distant relative of the Bambers found an 8mm cartridge case in an outbuilding at th scene...

[ngb1066]

What about Ralph Bambers service revolver?

[/color]

I have not heard this mentioned before.  Did he have one?  If so where was it kept?  What type of revolver was it?

--------------------

Ralph Bamber worked for British intelligence during the second world war, he was effectively a spy, working behind enemy lines in the middle east as part of a cell......

I accept that he may have retained his service revolver after the war, but is there any suggestion that he still had it at WHF at the time of his death?

---------------------------------------------

I don't have any evidence of this, only the fact that some of the bullet entry wounds found in some of the victims measured half inch in diameter, and that a service revolver could fire bullets that made half inch diameter bullet entry wounds...

A WW2 service revolver would probably have been either .38 or .45 calibre.  A .45 calibre bullet could certainly make a half inch entry wound, and a .38 might do so.  However the damage caused internally would be far more than that caused by a .22 LR rimfire bullet and if there was an exit wound it would also be of a significant size.  The other problem with this is that there was no .45 bullet found at the scene or in any of the bodies. 

I have taken note of your observations on the sizes of the entry wounds elsewhere on this forum and I accept that you may have a point.  Although I have extensive experience of firearms I am not qualified to give a firm view on this.  I believe that it is possible that all the entry wounds were caused by .22 LR rimfire bullets, although I share your surprise at an entry wound as large as half an inch in diameter. If it is part of Jeremy's case that another weapon may have been used this issue is one which should be properly explored by an expert.

------------------

Some weeks later, a distant relative of the Bambers found an 8mm cartridge case in an outbuilding at th scene...

That is interesting.  8mm is quite an unusual calibre.  Was this followed up at all?

[mike tesko]

What about Ralph Bambers service revolver?

[/color]

I have not heard this mentioned before.  Did he have one?  If so where was it kept?  What type of revolver was it?

--------------------

Ralph Bamber worked for British intelligence during the second world war, he was effectively a spy, working behind enemy lines in the middle east as part of a cell......

I accept that he may have retained his service revolver after the war, but is there any suggestion that he still had it at WHF at the time of his death?

---------------------------------------------

I don't have any evidence of this, only the fact that some of the bullet entry wounds found in some of the victims measured half inch in diameter, and that a service revolver could fire bullets that made half inch diameter bullet entry wounds...

A WW2 service revolver would probably have been either .38 or .45 calibre.  A .45 calibre bullet could certainly make a half inch entry wound, and a .38 might do so.  However the damage caused internally would be far more than that caused by a .22 LR rimfire bullet and if there was an exit wound it would also be of a significant size.  The other problem with this is that there was no .45 bullet found at the scene or in any of the bodies. 

I have taken note of your observations on the sizes of the entry wounds elsewhere on this forum and I accept that you may have a point.  Although I have extensive experience of firearms I am not qualified to give a firm view on this.  I believe that it is possible that all the entry wounds were caused by .22 LR rimfire bullets, although I share your surprise at an entry wound as large as half an inch in diameter. If it is part of Jeremy's case that another weapon may have been used this issue is one which should be properly explored by an expert.

------------------

Some weeks later, a distant relative of the Bambers found an 8mm cartridge case in an outbuilding at th scene...

That is interesting.  8mm is quite an unusual calibre.  Was this followed up at all?

----------------------------

I have a short statement somewhere on file about this, and when I come across it, I will post it here - at the moment I am looking for a few documents at Jeremy's request that he urgently needs, so you will have to bear with me...

[Caroline]

Mindset of Jeremy Bamber, at time he was informed, that all his family was dead

When news was broken to Jeremy, that everyone inside whf had been found dead, he accused the police of shooting them...

Although Jeremy made this complaint to a police officer, it was never officially, investigated...

What is interesting about this complaint, is that a huge question mark hangs over the death of Sheila Caffell in the main bedroom, (a suicide), upstairs at whf, (after 8:30am), after she had earlier been reported dead, (a suicide), downstairs, in the region of the kitchen (before 7:45am)...

Three senior police officers, DCI "George" Harris, DCI "Terry" Gibbons, and PI "Ivor" Montgomery, were all trapped for 15 minutes, inside the kitchen at whf, as a result of Sheila's body, being displaced from the region of the kitchen downstairs, to the bedroom upstairs...

The topic of conversation, between DCI Harris (at the scene using the kitchen phone) and ACC Peter Simpson (head of investigations at police headquarters) which took place between 8:15am and 8:30am, that morning, revolved around the disappearance of Sheila's body from the region of the kitchen, and its reappearance upstairs in the bedroom, aforementioned...

Jeremy's mindset

At no stage did Jeremy ever say that anyone had been shot, or that he heard a shot when Ralph called him from whf, or that anyone had by that stage been wounded or killed, he never said any such things, and no-one claims he said such things, when he spoke to the police, or to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford, that morning...

He had spoken to his father from the scene at 3:25am, and he knew that by that stage, Ralph Bamber was still very much alive, inside whf...

Later, when Jeremy tried to re-establish contact with his father, and he kept getting the engaged tone, Jeremy believed that this was because Ralph, was talking to someone else, and therefore, still alive...

Upon arrival at the scene (3:52am) Jeremy was present along with two police officers inside the grounds of whf, when they all observed a silhouetted figure walking around in the  bedroom, and in particular, they had seen a person walk across the open window from right to left, which caused Jeremy and the police to race from the grounds of whf, go back to the patrol car (CA07) which was parked up along Pages Lane, from where a request was made for the firearms team to be brought to the scene, because the situation might turn into a siege...

Jeremy was present at the scene, when armed police officers attempted to engage the occupants of whf in conversation...

Jeremy was aware, whilst at the scene, that up to about 7:30am, something, or somebody inside the farmhouse, was keeping the police, from going up and knocking on the door, or as the case may be, from going into the farmhouse, any sooner than they did (7:30am)...

Jeremy had witnessed two ambulances and their crews arrive at the scene, at around 7 O'clock, one which was sent directly to the farmhouse, and the other held up in Pages Lane...

All these circumstances led Jeremy to believe, and assume, that members of his family, were all still alive inside whf, until the armed police officers forced their way into whf, at about 7:30am...

One hour later, (by 8:30am), all his family was pronounced or reported to be dead...

It was these factors, which led Jeremy to accuse the police of shooting dead his family when they went into the farmhouse carrying guns, when news was first broken to him that he had no family left...

Jeremy had every reason to believe that everyone inside whf was still alive, by the time armed police set off to enter whf...

Is it any wonder that Jeremy accused the armed police of shooting dead everyone?

But, why wasn't this complaint, ever investigated?

Four Murders and a suicide

Police response, to Jeremy's complaint, was to treat the five deaths, as "four murders and a suicide", (SC/688/85),with little or no room for any consideration that armed police had played any direct or indirect role in any of the deaths, in particular, the death in the bedroom, of Sheila Caffell...

By the time case changed, into five murders

By the time the nature of the case changed, (SC/786/85), and all five deaths were being treated as suspicious, (including the death of Sheila Caffell), Essex police still refused to investigate the very serious complaint which Jeremy had made, on the morning of the incident, about armed police officers, having shot members of his family and killed them...

Rather than Essex police conduct an investigation into themselves, as to whether any armed officer played some role in any of the five deaths inside whf, after they entered, instead, they chose to investigate the possibility that Jeremy hired a hit-man, Mathew MacDonald, and that he had paid him two thousand pounds to kill all the members of his family...

When that failed, they turned their attention to Jeremy...

Complaint, still not investigated

It will soon be twenty six years, since, Jeremy made the complaint at the scene, that armed police who went into whf, shot and killed members of his family...

There has never been an investigation into these complaints, and if Essex police, and the CPS, have anything at all to do with it, there will never be such an investigation, since, the true circustances surrounding how Sheila Caffell died in the bedroom at whf, after 8:15am, will be withheld under Pii rules, until long after Jeremy's death...

The state, and all its agencies, have conspired to keep an innocent man (Jeremy Bamber) in custody for the rest of his life, convicted of murders he did not commit, and could not have committed, whilst they retain possession and control of evidence (obtained under SC/688/85), which would establish his innocence...

Yes, he did, he mentioned to AE that the reason he didn't head off to the farm after being requested to do so, was because he was afraid he was being lured there so Sheila could shoot him too. His accusation that the police shot the family was simply another case of him 'hamming it up'

Jeremy said Nevill called him at 03:10 not 03:25.

He knew they were all dead because he shot them

The claims weren't investigated because the police knew they were rubbish and that Jeremy shot the family.

[Caroline]

In Jeremy's original witness statement (Taken on the morning after the murders) - he CLEARLY his father called at 03:10. The memory would be still fresh in his mind at this point so attempts to change the time of the call just make the whole phone call a laughing stock.

Also interesting is the fact that he makes sure he tells police what he watched on TV - this is more bolstering of the alibi - it's information which wasn't required but he made sure he slotted it in.

He also makes no mention of calling Witham.

[scipio_usmc]

[/color]

I have not heard this mentioned before.  Did he have one?  If so where was it kept?  What type of revolver was it?
--------------------

Ralph Bamber worked for British intelligence during the second world war, he was effectively a spy, working behind enemy lines in the middle east as part of a cell......

I accept that he may have retained his service revolver after the war, but is there any suggestion that he still had it at WHF at the time of his death?
---------------------------------------------

I don't have any evidence of this, only the fact that some of the bullet entry wounds found in some of the victims measured half inch in diameter, and that a service revolver could fire bullets that made half inch diameter bullet entry wounds...

A WW2 service revolver would probably have been either .38 or .45 calibre.  A .45 calibre bullet could certainly make a half inch entry wound, and a .38 might do so.  However the damage caused internally would be far more than that caused by a .22 LR rimfire bullet and if there was an exit wound it would also be of a significant size.  The other problem with this is that there was no .45 bullet found at the scene or in any of the bodies. 

I have taken note of your observations on the sizes of the entry wounds elsewhere on this forum and I accept that you may have a point.  Although I have extensive experience of firearms I am not qualified to give a firm view on this.  I believe that it is possible that all the entry wounds were caused by .22 LR rimfire bullets, although I share your surprise at an entry wound as large as half an inch in diameter. If it is part of Jeremy's case that another weapon may have been used this issue is one which should be properly explored by an expert.

The angle of entry as well as the different nature of various body parts results in the size of entrance wounds varying though the same bullets are used for each wound.  There is nothing unusual about that.

38 and 45 rounds have much less velocity than 22LR rounds fired by a rifle so are less likely to exit.  They are much larger in terms of weight there would be no way to confuse them for 22LR.  The 38 S&W bullets used by the UK were 170 grain jacketed bullets so in addition to a much larger bullet jackets would have been found.  They did use some of their old non-jacketed supply but those were 200 grain.  The .455 weighed 265 grains and of course were jacketed. The smallest older non-jacketed rounds were still in excess of 200 grains. None of the bullets found were anywhere near the size of these and of course the damage would have been far more severe.  Vanezis could never make a mistake of such magnitude.

In the meantime government issued weapons were not given to vets when they completed their service they were retained by the government.  Those weapons taken by WWII vets were taken from the enemy. Those are the ones the Allied governments didn't normally bother to make sure to take away.  They were not issued so were not among the property that had to be accounted for.  In Iraq and Afghanistan the US military would allow enemy weapons to be used but units had to list them among their equipment to have control and would not allow individuals to take the weapons back to the states and controlled what was mailed back.  During WWII there was no control and war "trophy's" could be mailed back.  Knives, swords, guns etc were mailed to their families. So in one sense we live in a different world than they did but they didn't get to keep the weapons they were issued by the government.

 

[scipio_usmc]

[/color]

I have not heard this mentioned before.  Did he have one?  If so where was it kept?  What type of revolver was it?
--------------------

Ralph Bamber worked for British intelligence during the second world war, he was effectively a spy, working behind enemy lines in the middle east as part of a cell......

I accept that he may have retained his service revolver after the war, but is there any suggestion that he still had it at WHF at the time of his death?
---------------------------------------------

I don't have any evidence of this, only the fact that some of the bullet entry wounds found in some of the victims measured half inch in diameter, and that a service revolver could fire bullets that made half inch diameter bullet entry wounds...

A WW2 service revolver would probably have been either .38 or .45 calibre.  A .45 calibre bullet could certainly make a half inch entry wound, and a .38 might do so.  However the damage caused internally would be far more than that caused by a .22 LR rimfire bullet and if there was an exit wound it would also be of a significant size.  The other problem with this is that there was no .45 bullet found at the scene or in any of the bodies. 

I have taken note of your observations on the sizes of the entry wounds elsewhere on this forum and I accept that you may have a point.  Although I have extensive experience of firearms I am not qualified to give a firm view on this.  I believe that it is possible that all the entry wounds were caused by .22 LR rimfire bullets, although I share your surprise at an entry wound as large as half an inch in diameter. If it is part of Jeremy's case that another weapon may have been used this issue is one which should be properly explored by an expert.
------------------

Some weeks later, a distant relative of the Bambers found an 8mm cartridge case in an outbuilding at th scene...

What relevance is anything found in an outbuilding to the murders?  In an event what is your source for this claim and 8mm Mauser or 8mm pistol (AKA 9mm short)?

[Jan]

In Jeremy's original witness statement (Taken on the morning after the murders) - he CLEARLY his father called at 03:10. The memory would be still fresh in his mind at this point so attempts to change the time of the call just make the whole phone call a laughing stock.

Also interesting is the fact that he makes sure he tells police what he watched on TV - this is more bolstering of the alibi - it's information which wasn't required but he made sure he slotted it in.

He also makes no mention of calling Witham.

So when does he first say he called Witham ?

[scipio_usmc]

So when does he first say he called Witham ?

He told West and the officers he spoke to at the scene about calling Witham first. By the time he wrote up his statement he stopped making the claim but it is still obvious he must have done so because why make it up and how would he have known Witham had no one to answer the phone? 

He had to have called Witham prior to police getting back from their patrol because after they got back they were there to answer the phone and did so. They got back around 3:20 and surely were back to where they could hear the phone by 3:25 so it had to be prior to this.  In all likelihood he called West prior to 3:26 so that lines up that he would have called Witham prior to 3:24 and thus at a time prior to police being there to answer.

 

[Caroline]

So when does he first say he called Witham ?

He doesn't.

[scipio_usmc]

He doesn't.

He seems to have dropped the claim because it is a double edged sword.  On one hand wasting time looking up 2 different numbers and making 2 calls helps account for some of the time gap between when Nevill allegedly called and he finally got through to West.  But on the other hand after getting no response a Witham that puts him on notice that many stations likely have no phone operator so late at night at night so at that point he should have dialed 999.  To persist looking up numbers makes no sense and undercuts his claim that he didn't realize it would be faster to dial 999.  So that seems to be why he viewed it as more harmful than helpful so decided to ignore it and thus didn't admit such at trial either.

I think that was a bad move because West testified to his call to Witham first so he set up a conflict by not admitting it at trial.

[Jan]

So witham comes from the police then?

[Adam]

He says he didn't dial 999 because he didn't think it would make difference how quickly the police arrived.

What would have made a difference was not spending up to 26 minutes looking for two numbers. When he could have just dialled 999.

[Jan]

found this post from 2012:




Quote

 



Quote from: Steve_uk on August 18, 2012, 03:20:PM

I've checked this and there is some ambiguity so I will concede that Jeremy may have made the call to Julie after his telephone call to the Police,although this is by no means certain. What I do stand by is that Jeremy pressed onto the Police how urgent this matter was,yet by his own admission wasted-and there is no other word for it-several minutes of time between the alleged telephone call from his father and the time he got round to calling the Police by flicking through the Chelmsford Yellow Pages for the Chelmsford Police Station number instead of immediately telephoning 999.

Whilst we're on the subject there is another inconsistency regarding Jeremy and telephones. He stated on oath in court that he had not tried to telephone Witham Police Station before dialling the Chelmsford number,whereas this is contradicted by two Police Officers who said he had told them he had. Sergeant Bews also testified that when he encountered Jeremy at the farm Jeremy repeated the remark about Ralph(Nevill) sounding "terrified" on the telephone,yet again this is denied by Jeremy,wishing to play down his initial sense of urgency when he realized that not telephoning 999 initially might be used against him. Again in Jeremy's talk with Colin at Goldhanger Colin was left with the impression that Nevill might have been already wounded,and that there was an urgency about the situation.

I suggest to you that the whole of Jeremy's statement was bluster,and in fact,a pack of lies.



I don't understand your point, if you don't believe he received a call from Neville, why are you talking about him 'wasting time'? Presumably (in your opinion), all at the house had been killed so what time was being wasted? It could ONLY be considered as wasting time if he DID receive a call from his father i.e. his father calls sounding 'terrified' and he looks up the station number – which would mean he wasn’t guilty! Now, which is it? If he made up the call from his father, why would he make himself look as though he were time wasting? This part of the guilty argument (for me) makes absolutely no sense whatsoever



so it begs the question - if JB is guilty why would he lie to the police about phoning Witham and then deny it?


If he is innocent and telling the truth - then why would EP want everyone to think there was a call to Witham from someone?