Author Topic: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body  (Read 12488 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2011, 03:35:PM »
I think its unfair that Essex police will not release the original scenes of crime report, so that we can see where all the blood was found......

Yes, if that is the case then I agree completely.
----

Essex police produced an edited typed version which does not provide "sufficeint information" about where all the blood and other exhibits were found or recovered from - I do know that Jeremy has requested access to the original handwritten documentation, but this has/is being witheld under pii rules...

Now...

why would the police be seeking to withhold such documentary evidence?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

H

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2011, 03:38:PM »
I think its unfair that Essex police will not release the original scenes of crime report, so that we can see where all the blood was found......

Yes, if that is the case then I agree completely.
----

Essex police produced an edited typed version which does not provide "sufficeint information" about where all the blood and other exhibits were found or recovered from - I do know that Jeremy has requested access to the original handwritten documentation, but this has/is being witheld under pii rules...

Now...

why would the police be seeking to withhold such documentary evidence?

No idea. I'm sure you would say because they are hiding something, I don't come to that conclusion, in fact I don't come to any conclusion, but I am fully behind having everything released, I'd like to see things as much as you would.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2011, 03:41:PM »
So, it would appear that you are trying to imply that those items, the towel, the cushion covers from the wooden chairs, and the pair of cotton trousers, which were all so conveniently positioned around the base of the coal bucket on the floor of the kitchen were all there before Ralph's head either fell into that coal bucket, or before it was placed there?

What a tremendous coincidence...

I think we had better have a closer look at those/these items, to try and work out whether or not, they should have been seized and made exhibits in the case?

No Mike that is not what I am implying, I am implying nothing.

You have decided that the police placed the items there and are stating it as fact, now don't get me wrong, I'm open to the possibility, but there is no evidence that that is the case (that I have seen or recall). To state it as fact on your whim doesn't wash with me, if you said they could have been placed there for that reason then I'd take it on board as such.
...........

Do you not agree that if the items in question were already placed there before the raid team got into the kitchen, that it would have looked or appeared as very suspicious to the investigating officers that those items were there around the base of the coal bucket, and why Sheila would have been bothered about the spread of blood further afield, around and upon the kitchen floor? Then later, when the case against Jeremy was being pursued, do you not agree that this feature would have been a major part of the prosecutions case against Jeremy during the trial?

Why would the prosecution omit this feature as part of their case against Jeremy at and during the trial?



"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2011, 03:44:PM »
If details of where all the crime scene bullet cases were/are recorded in the scenes of crime register, then that would be a good enough reason for Essex police not to want to disclose it to Jeremy, or to those representing his interests, particularly if the position of the bullet cases contained within it, differs to the position the court was told they had been found in?


Do you not agree?

What if there were four bullet cases absent from the main bedroom area, as recorded in the scenes of crime register - what would your view be then?

What if, DRH/1 (or some other as yet unidentified bullet case), DRH/2, DRH/3, and DRH/4 were not mentioned in the scenes of crime register at all, as being found or seized from the main bedroom at whf?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 03:47:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Newbury1

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2011, 03:53:PM »
Mike, this is one area I can agree with a lot of your points. The postion RB was photographed in is very peculiar.

RB was, IMO, moved and placed in that position after death. I see no reason for the murderer to do this. The murderer would simply leave RB sat in the chair he died in. If RB had fallen from the chair shortly after death, and before rig mort had set in, he would be slumped on the floor.

If however RB was knocked from that chair after rig mort had set in (and it clearly had) this, I believe had to done by someone other than the murderer and, as I have mentioned before, I am still surprised more of this wasn't raised at the trial.

If I had been a jury member and had seen this photo I would certainly have had a lot of questions about it!!

However if the police did stage RB body it does not make JB innocent, It simply adds to the incompetence of the police, which I suppose could have helped the defence undermine the prosecutions case  ???

Do you know how JB's current defence team is regarding this photo and have any queries relating to it been presented to the CCRC?



clifford

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2011, 04:04:PM »
Mike, this is one area I can agree with a lot of your points. The postion RB was photographed in is very peculiar.

RB was, IMO, moved and placed in that position after death. I see no reason for the murderer to do this. The murderer would simply leave RB sat in the chair he died in. If RB had fallen from the chair shortly after death, and before rig mort had set in, he would be slumped on the floor.

If however RB was knocked from that chair after rig mort had set in (and it clearly had) this, I believe had to done by someone other than the murderer and, as I have mentioned before, I am still surprised more of this wasn't raised at the trial.

If I had been a jury member and had seen this photo I would certainly have had a lot of questions about it!!

However if the police did stage RB body it does not make JB innocent, It simply adds to the incompetence of the police, which I suppose could have helped the defence undermine the prosecutions case  ???

Do you know how JB's current defence team is regarding this photo and have any queries relating to it been presented to the CCRC?
I think Craig said Ralph was perched on a stool.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2011, 04:11:PM »
Mike, this is one area I can agree with a lot of your points. The postion RB was photographed in is very peculiar.

RB was, IMO, moved and placed in that position after death. I see no reason for the murderer to do this. The murderer would simply leave RB sat in the chair he died in. If RB had fallen from the chair shortly after death, and before rig mort had set in, he would be slumped on the floor.

If however RB was knocked from that chair after rig mort had set in (and it clearly had) this, I believe had to done by someone other than the murderer and, as I have mentioned before, I am still surprised more of this wasn't raised at the trial.

If I had been a jury member and had seen this photo I would certainly have had a lot of questions about it!!

However if the police did stage RB body it does not make JB innocent, It simply adds to the incompetence of the police, which I suppose could have helped the defence undermine the prosecutions case  ???

Do you know how JB's current defence team is regarding this photo and have any queries relating to it been presented to the CCRC?
------------

First of all, I do not think there can be much doubt if any at all, that Ralph's body was toppled from the chair behind the door through which the police entered the kitchen, and that at the time this occurred rigor mortis had already set in...

Secondly...

this photograph was not disclosed to Jeremy or his legal team, by the time of his trial at Chelmsford CC in October 1986, nor as I understand it by the time of his last failed appeal in 2002...

Thirdly, I should really explain for the benefit of everyone, how I came to end up in possession of this particular photograph, since I am sure everyone is puzzled as to why it was not utilizes during the trial or the appeal? Well, I came into possession of it, quite by accident whilst visiting Andrew Hunter at his Oxfordshire home. I had been fortunate enough to be invited to meet Andrew at his home to discuss features involved in the case, and during one such visit I saw the photograph in question amongst Andrews file on the case, and I asked if I could have a copy? At first Andrew was somewhat reluctant to give me a copy, but after I agreed to him blanking out the ghastly image of Ralphs body, he provided me with the copy that is posted on the forum. I have never asked Andrew where he got a copy of that photograph from, but I can say that it was not part of the court album (50) and as far as I know it was not part of the master copy album (223)?

I am sure a great many of you are already aware that Andrew Hunter raised questions in Parliament about Jeremy's case, and I assume he took possession or was given possession of such a photograph, and possibly others, as part of his investigation into these/those matters?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 09:26:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Newbury1

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2011, 04:20:PM »
Mike, this is one area I can agree with a lot of your points. The postion RB was photographed in is very peculiar.

RB was, IMO, moved and placed in that position after death. I see no reason for the murderer to do this. The murderer would simply leave RB sat in the chair he died in. If RB had fallen from the chair shortly after death, and before rig mort had set in, he would be slumped on the floor.

If however RB was knocked from that chair after rig mort had set in (and it clearly had) this, I believe had to done by someone other than the murderer and, as I have mentioned before, I am still surprised more of this wasn't raised at the trial.

If I had been a jury member and had seen this photo I would certainly have had a lot of questions about it!!

However if the police did stage RB body it does not make JB innocent, It simply adds to the incompetence of the police, which I suppose could have helped the defence undermine the prosecutions case  ???

Do you know how JB's current defence team is regarding this photo and have any queries relating to it been presented to the CCRC?
------------

Fist of all, I do not think there can be much doubt if any at all, that Ralph's body was toppled from the chair behind the door through which the police entered the kitchen, and that at the time this occurred rigor mortis had already set in...

Secondly...

this photograph was not disclosed to Jeremy or his legal team, by the time of his trial at Chelmsford CC in October 1986, nor as I understand it by the time of his last failed appeal in 2002...

Thirdly, I should really explain for the benefit of everyone, how I came to end up in possession of this particular photograph, since I am sure everyone is puzzled as to why it was not utilizes during the trial or the appeal? Well, I came into possession of it, quite by accident whilst visiting Andrew Hunter at his Oxfordshire home. I had been fortunate enough to be invited to meet Andrew at his home to discuss features involved in the case, and during one such visit I saw the photograph in question amongst Andrews file on the case, and I asked if I could have a copy? At first Andrew was somewhat reluctant to give me a copy, but after I agreed to him blanking out the ghastly image of Ralph's body, he provided me with the copy that is posted on the forum. I have never asked Andrew where he got a copy of that photograph from, but I can say that it was not part of the court album (50) and as far as I know it was not part of the master copy album (223)?

I am sure a great many of you are already aware that Andrew Hunter raised questions in Parliament about Jeremy's case, and I assume he took possession or was given possession of such a photograph, and possibly others, as part of his investigation into these/those matters?

Thanks Mike,

Could you please answer two more questions on this subject -

1) What photo of RB was shown to the Jury?
2) has this photo (of RB perched on the overturned chair and his head placed in a coal scuttle), and the relevant accompanying queries, been presented by JB's defence team to the CCRC?


Offline mike tesko

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2011, 04:36:PM »
Mike, this is one area I can agree with a lot of your points. The postion RB was photographed in is very peculiar.

RB was, IMO, moved and placed in that position after death. I see no reason for the murderer to do this. The murderer would simply leave RB sat in the chair he died in. If RB had fallen from the chair shortly after death, and before rig mort had set in, he would be slumped on the floor.

If however RB was knocked from that chair after rig mort had set in (and it clearly had) this, I believe had to done by someone other than the murderer and, as I have mentioned before, I am still surprised more of this wasn't raised at the trial.

If I had been a jury member and had seen this photo I would certainly have had a lot of questions about it!!

However if the police did stage RB body it does not make JB innocent, It simply adds to the incompetence of the police, which I suppose could have helped the defence undermine the prosecutions case  ???

Do you know how JB's current defence team is regarding this photo and have any queries relating to it been presented to the CCRC?
------------

Fist of all, I do not think there can be much doubt if any at all, that Ralph's body was toppled from the chair behind the door through which the police entered the kitchen, and that at the time this occurred rigor mortis had already set in...

Secondly...

this photograph was not disclosed to Jeremy or his legal team, by the time of his trial at Chelmsford CC in October 1986, nor as I understand it by the time of his last failed appeal in 2002...

Thirdly, I should really explain for the benefit of everyone, how I came to end up in possession of this particular photograph, since I am sure everyone is puzzled as to why it was not utilizes during the trial or the appeal? Well, I came into possession of it, quite by accident whilst visiting Andrew Hunter at his Oxfordshire home. I had been fortunate enough to be invited to meet Andrew at his home to discuss features involved in the case, and during one such visit I saw the photograph in question amongst Andrews file on the case, and I asked if I could have a copy? At first Andrew was somewhat reluctant to give me a copy, but after I agreed to him blanking out the ghastly image of Ralph's body, he provided me with the copy that is posted on the forum. I have never asked Andrew where he got a copy of that photograph from, but I can say that it was not part of the court album (50) and as far as I know it was not part of the master copy album (223)?

I am sure a great many of you are already aware that Andrew Hunter raised questions in Parliament about Jeremy's case, and I assume he took possession or was given possession of such a photograph, and possibly others, as part of his investigation into these/those matters?

Thanks Mike,

Could you please answer two more questions on this subject -

1) What photo of RB was shown to the Jury?
2) has this photo (of RB perched on the overturned chair and his head placed in a coal scuttle), and the relevant accompanying queries, been presented by JB's defence team to the CCRC?
-----------

As far as I am aware, no photographs of Ralph were shown to the jury, nor did any form part of the court album, but I stand to be corrected if I am wrong?

Police only officially took two photographs of Ralph's body in situ at the scene, if you choose to believe that...

Here are the relevant extracts from PC Birds photographic schedules:-
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 04:40:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2011, 04:42:PM »
If you study these schedules closely enough, you will see that the photographs which are referred to in the COLP file, numbered, 6,7 and 8, do not tally with photographs listed in PC Birds (SOC) schedule at 6, 7 and 8, because only one of PC Birds photographs is dated, 7th August 1985, the other two (6 and 8) appear to have been taken on 10th September 1985...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 04:45:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2011, 04:51:PM »
Similarly...

Look at this part of PC Birds schedule, where he numbers the photographs in the court album, in particular, court album numbers 6, 7 and 8?

These bear the corresponding numbers 24 (6), 26 (7) and 23 (8), which were all taken on 7th August 1985...

However...

Photograph 23 which was taken at the scene on 7th August 1985, was the one showing the rifle to be leaning up against the bedroom window, a photograph which PC Bird took from the vantage point of the middle landing on the main stairs looking back towards in the general direction of the bedroom door...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 06:26:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

chochokeira

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2011, 08:25:PM »
I think its unfair that Essex police will not release the original scenes of crime report, so that we can see where all the blood was found......

Yes, if that is the case then I agree completely.
----

Essex police produced an edited typed version which does not provide "sufficeint information" about where all the blood and other exhibits were found or recovered from - I do know that Jeremy has requested access to the original handwritten documentation, but this has/is being witheld under pii rules...

Now...

why would the police be seeking to withhold such documentary evidence?


Good question. Why would the police withhold key evidence like this under PII? It makes no sense at all - unless they were attempting to hide something.

Jackiepreece

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2011, 08:53:PM »
I don't think anything Smiffy has said is as distastful as selling your house to move into rented WHF

Offline bob

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2011, 08:59:PM »
I don't think anything Smiffy has said is as distastful as selling your house to move into rented WHF
Of course you don't.

andrea

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Re: PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2011, 09:00:PM »
how long after the murders did the eatons move into whitehouse farm?