Colour of burns

[Jonathan]

I did not say it was true I said it was my understanding. I said it was a possibility based on the evidence of the Malkinson case, and might need to meet certain criteria. This was based on the information in the records I was using. It may still be an option but most likely too expensive. Is at an option??

I often reframe my wording to counteract your use of exaggerating a posters words in order to weaken their arguments. Only this week you said I was blaming half the Essex constabulary when it was less than 12

are we talking about a judicial review (High Court) or an application to the Court of Appeal Criminal Division?

[Hardy Boy]

I did not say it was true I said it was my understanding. I said it was a possibility based on the evidence of the Malkinson case, and might need to meet certain criteria. This was based on the information in the records I was using. It may still be an option but most likely too expensive. Is at an option??

I often reframe my wording to counteract your use of exaggerating a posters words in order to weaken their arguments. Only this week you said I was blaming half the Essex constabulary when it was less than 12

Ha Ha, Bubo, you don’t get to rewrite your own words and blame me for “exaggerating”.
You wrote:
“there are legal routes to address the High court directly irrespective of the CCRC’s decisions.”
That isn’t me exaggerating ,  that’s your wording.

Then you used Malkinson as your support, but Malkinson is a CCRC referral case, so it doesn’t back your claim anyway.

So what you actually do mean… I often reframe my wording and I change my story when HB catches me out!.

[Bubo bubo]

are we talking about a judicial review (High Court) or an application to the Court of Appeal Criminal Division?

Certainly the High Court for judicial review not sure about The Court of Appeal Criminal Division not so sure whether there is a legal path that can be taken as I have outlined by my posts.

[Hardy Boy]

are we talking about a judicial review (High Court) or an application to the Court of Appeal Criminal Division?

Im leaving him with it, he wants a distraction off the Aga evidence anyway,  it’s nonsense and been exposed, so I’m focusing on this and not Bubo’s usual climb down.  It’s a tactic his supporters often use, bury the posts that hurt.  Don’t play his game Jonathan.

[Bubo bubo]

Im leaving him with it, he wants a distraction off the Aga evidence anyway,  it’s nonsense and been exposed, so I’m focusing on this and not Bubo’s usual climb down.  It’s a tactic his supporters often use, bury the posts that hurt.  Don’t play his game Jonathan.

What you posted.

“there are legal routes to address the High court directly irrespective of the CCRC’s decisions.”

What I actually posted.

My understanding is that there are legal routes to address the High court directly irrespective of the CCRC's decisions. Not an expert so can ngb shed light on this aspect.

Yet another one of your underhand tricks misrepresenting a posters position and taking things out of context and editing only the words that suit you.

[Bubo bubo]

What you posted.

“there are legal routes to address the High court directly irrespective of the CCRC’s decisions.”

What I actually posted.

My understanding is that there are legal routes to address the High court directly irrespective of the CCRC's decisions. Not an expert so can ngb shed light on this aspect.

Yet another one of your underhand tricks misrepresenting a posters position and taking things out of context and editing only the words that suit you.

I have also found this. It is the summary of a longer piece of information.

You can still go to the Court of Appeal even if the CCRC has refused you multiple times — but only if you can obtain permission to appeal directly from the Court of Appeal. You do not need the CCRC’s permission, but you do need valid grounds that the Court will accept.

[Jonathan]

To be fair to Mr Boyce at least the colour of the Aga was right.

[Hardy Boy]

To be fair to Mr Boyce at least the colour of the Aga was right.

Ha Ha…To be fair to Boyce… the colour was spot on 😂

Shame about the small issue of needing a 12-inch log.  If it needs a log, it doesn’t fit.  If you look at the video, even the log doesn’t reach the handles, then look closely at the drain tap, it sits more or less directly beneath the handles.  It acts as a block for the body.

Then there’s the very small issue of blood pooling that everyone likes to sidestep, if Bamber was seated upright in the chair, and police entry knocked him over, the blood pooling would be consistent around the base of the chair, if he died at the Aga, blood pooling doesn’t suddenly walk with him and reset itself.

[Hardy Boy]

Ha Ha…To be fair to Boyce… the colour was spot on 😂

Shame about the small issue of needing a 12-inch log.  If it needs a log, it doesn’t fit.  If you look at the video, even the log doesn’t reach the handles, then look closely at the drain tap, it sits more or less directly beneath the handles.  It acts as a block for the body.

Then there’s the very small issue of blood pooling that everyone likes to sidestep, if Bamber was seated upright in the chair, and police entry knocked him over, the blood pooling would be consistent around the base of the chair, if he died at the Aga, blood pooling doesn’t suddenly walk with him and reset itself.

That’s why, to try and recreate the scene, he twists the body onto its side with the face angled upwards. He’s manoeuvring into a position that helps him get around the drain-tap block.  but it also allows him to prop himself up on his arms and lift his head and neck into contact.

Now imagine Nevill collapsing in that exact position,  and then lying there for hours. The blood pooling would have to match it. For the neck to get anywhere near that handle, his head would effectively have to be parked right on the tap to avoid the stop,   which is absurd in a real fall.

[Rob_]

EXACTLY

Here is the Malkinson case sequence.

How the Case Moved Through the Courts
1. Original Trial
- Court: Manchester Crown Court (Crown Square)
- Year: 2004
- Outcome: Convicted by a 10–2 majority.
2. First Appeal
- Year: 2006
- Court: Court of Appeal (Criminal Division)
- Outcome: Appeal dismissed.
3. CCRC Applications
- 2009: First application to the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) — refused.
- 2018: Second application (with APPEAL charity) — also refused.
4. Final Appeal (the one that quashed the conviction)
- Court: Court of Appeal, Criminal Division (Royal Courts of Justice, London)
- Hearing: 26 July 2023
- Outcome: Conviction quashed.

A later report looked at how the CCRC failed him.

Even then it was not work done by the CCRC:

Neither statement made clear the vital scientific breakthrough achieved by Malkinson’s team at Appeal. Henley said: ‘It required Appeal to obtain the new DNA evidence that ultimately resulted in the further work that led to the referral by the CCRC. It would not have happened otherwise.’

[Jonathan]

That’s why, to try and recreate the scene, he twists the body onto its side with the face angled upwards. He’s manoeuvring into a position that helps him get around the drain-tap block.  but it also allows him to prop himself up on his arms and lift his head and neck into contact.

Now imagine Nevill collapsing in that exact position,  and then lying there for hours. The blood pooling would have to match it. For the neck to get anywhere near that handle, his head would effectively have to be parked right on the tap to avoid the stop,   which is absurd in a real fall.

I don't understand why, bearing in mind the gravity of the issues, Mr Boyce didn't create some sort of platform to simulate his Aga being flush to the floor like WHF.

Instead he gets a volunteer to wriggle around and films it hoping noone notices.

[Rob_]

I don't understand why, bearing in mind the gravity of the issues, Mr Boyce didn't create some sort of platform to simulate his Aga being flush to the floor like WHF.

Instead he gets a volunteer to wriggle around and films it hoping noone notices.

Because it would make no difference to the pattern he obtains, I assume was his reasoning?

   

[Hardy Boy]

I don't understand why, bearing in mind the gravity of the issues, Mr Boyce didn't create some sort of platform to simulate his Aga being flush to the floor like WHF.

Instead he gets a volunteer to wriggle around and films it hoping noone notices.

I agree, but, by not using a proper platform, it gives them wriggle room later to say “oh we had to use props”  when the truth is the props are only needed because the fit doesn’t happen naturally,  it’s the same “wriggle room” trick as the “handles were too hot” excuse.  Do the stooge scene and the measuring when the handles are cold then Mr Boyce the Expert!

[Hardy Boy]

Because it would make no difference to the pattern he obtains, I assume was his reasoning?

   

A platform doesn’t just affect the “pattern”… it affects whether contact is even possible without cheating.  Without proving the contact is possible in the first place, the “pattern” is meaningless.  How does the blood pooling disappear with him 4 hours later

[Rob_]

A platform doesn’t just affect the “pattern”… it affects whether contact is even possible without cheating.  Without proving the contact is possible in the first place, the “pattern” is meaningless.  How does the blood pooling disappear with him?

I disagree, the pattern matching is the main consideration, we have no idea of how Nevil was actually lying against the aga. He may have been snagged by his pajamas which were ripped.