Colour of burns

[Hardy Boy]

I disagree, the pattern matching is the main consideration, we have no idea of how Nevil was actually lying against the aga. He may have been snagged by his pajamas which were ripped.

 

Rob, that’s exactly the problem.  A bruise could match the edge of a table, or a door knob. And don’t forget,  even Boyce previously rifle barrel,  prodding idea. That’s another hot metal source that could cause a similar mark.

If we “have no idea” how Nevill was lying, then you can’t claim the Aga caused the burns based on a pattern alone.   

[snow66!]

I disagree, the pattern matching is the main consideration, we have no idea of how Nevil was actually lying against the aga. He may have been snagged by his pajamas which were ripped.

 

Totally agree, Rob!
I can honestly say that I am 99% sure the Aga burned Nevills back.

[Bubo bubo]

Totally agree, Rob!
I can honestly say that I am 99% sure the Aga burned Nevills back.

PB is a tool mark expert with 40years of experience. His job is all about linking marks on a body to all sorts of implements. Hammers, Spanners. Baseball Bats, Hot domestic irons and a variety of wooden and metal objects that are either used or are static item like the corner of a coffee table. It is all about patterns. To me the pattern is conclusive.

[snow66!]

PB is a tool mark expert with 40years of experience. His job is all about linking marks on a body to all sorts of implements. Hammers, Spanners. Baseball Bats, Hot domestic irons and a variety of wooden and metal objects that are either used or are static item like the corner of a coffee table. It is all about patterns. To me the pattern is conclusive.

Yes, I dont think conclusive is too strong a word, Bubo.

[snow66!]

Nope, I’m just warming up Snow, Funny how how all of a sudden all evidence has been discussed  only appears after some  awkward questions land.

It’s a discussion Forum,  As long as posters keep putting topics up, I’ll keep responding. If anyone wants something checked in the doc-maker’s write-up or video, I’ll read it and give my honest reply. No one’s forcing you to respond,  but the silence speaks volumes.

Cooking Up a Lie, is an admission to what they are doing!

Look at this photo, and see who’s cooking up a lie,  Look at the height of the log they’re using to get the pig to “fit” the Aga.

They’ve had to raise the pig up off the floor just to make contact,  and remember, the area isn’t the shoulder… it’s at the back of the neck where the handle meets.

That Log, is a prop they are using, and it’s an admission what you can’t see, that the contact doesn’t happen at FLOOR level.  They’re bypassing, head on the floor, the drain stop tap, and the fact the head drops lower, the log is holding it straight for them!  They’re not reconstructing any natural fall at all, they’re bypassing it!

All we need is the height to the centre of the handle, HB!
Jane will hopefully find her measuring tape soon!
At a guess, I would say 14 inches/350mm.

[Cambridgecutie]

My understanding is that there are legal routes to address the High court directly irrespective of the CCRC's decisions. Not an expert so can ngb shed light on this aspect.

Even if all this bizarre stuff you and slow66! advocate stood up to scrutiny, which it absolutely doesn't, it would not go anywhere with any court because it does not in any way undermine the case against JB.

You seem to think...'ha if we can show that EP interfered with the soc in the kitchen its game over because this would call into question EP's integrity'.  Not so.  It would do nothing to explain the case against JB:

- silencer: blood, paint and scratches
- SC: lack of debris on her nightdress and person
- JM's testimony
- how NB made the call to JB having sustained gunshot wounds in the bedroom

You do not need to be legally qualified to understand the above. 

[snow66!]

Even if all this bizarre stuff you and slow66! advocate stood up to scrutiny, which it absolutely doesn't, it would not go anywhere with any court because it does not in any way undermine the case against JB.

You seem to think...'ha if we can show that EP interfered with the soc in the kitchen its game over because this would call into question EP's integrity'.  Not so.  It would do nothing to explain the case against JB:

- silencer: blood, paint and scratches
- SC: lack of debris on her nightdress and person
- JM's testimony
- how NB made the call to JB having sustained gunshot wounds in the bedroom

You do not need to be legally qualified to understand the above.

All you need is one conclusive piece of evidence proving JBs innocence for everything else to crumble away, Cutie, be it Mugford, the silencer or anything else!
For instance the CT think the Milbank phone call is JBs alibi, and obviously if it is accepted will sweep aside all other evidence against him!

[Hardy Boy]

PB is a tool mark expert with 40years of experience. His job is all about linking marks on a body to all sorts of implements. Hammers, Spanners. Baseball Bats, Hot domestic irons and a variety of wooden and metal objects that are either used or are static item like the corner of a coffee table. It is all about patterns. To me the pattern is conclusive.

Oh right,  the expert who keeps changing his mind… that’s conclusive for you is it?  Or do you mean Conclusive until his next theory in season three.

The best bit is Boyce the expert tool matcher, himself doesn’t even call it conclusive — he says there’s a possibility that………… so conclusive is only for them that wants it to be.

[Hardy Boy]

All we need is the height to the centre of the handle, HB!
Jane will hopefully find her measuring tape soon!
At a guess, I would say 14 inches/350mm.

Snow, you don’t need Jane’s measuring tape to see the problem.
The video shows they needed a 12-inch log just to raise the “neck” into the handle itself. That proves the contact doesn’t happen at floor level where his neck would be.

Now look at the photo: how does Nevill collapse into that and magically avoid the drain tap and handle on the way down? The drain tap is exactly where the head/neck has to pass, that alone would act as a stop and more than likely push the body away from the Aga.
And if he’s pinned there for four hours, you’d expect clear pressure marks from those contact points, that both the defence and Vanezis clearly missed.

Then answer me, how does the blood pooling from such a fall, go with him to the coal scuttle as seen?

[Hardy Boy]

All you need is one conclusive piece of evidence proving JBs innocence for everything else to crumble away, Cutie, be it Mugford, the silencer or anything else!
For instance the CT think the Milbank phone call is JBs alibi, and obviously if it is accepted will sweep aside all other evidence against him!

Correct….. and he’s been trying for 40 years now… and every failed appeal makes the next one harder for him!

[Hardy Boy]

Yes, I dont think conclusive is too strong a word, Bubo.

Ha Ha nodding dog in the back window… Boyce has shifted from the rifle to the Aga so the expert knows full well it’s not conclusive.

[Jonathan]

All you need is one conclusive piece of evidence proving JBs innocence for everything else to crumble away, Cutie, be it Mugford, the silencer or anything else!
For instance the CT think the Milbank phone call is JBs alibi, and obviously if it is accepted will sweep aside all other evidence against him!

Do we know if the CCRC have been given everything by Heidi Blake? i.e. the full phone call, all the emails they exchanged

[Hardy Boy]

If the body is positioned on its side in a way that the head is not supported, for example, if the head is near the edge of a surface, over a gap, or propped at an angle without support, gravity will cause the head to fall or droop downward until it reaches a point of support or stability.

Forensic investigators use the pattern of livor mortis to help determine the body's position at the time of death and whether it has been moved, as the pooled blood becomes "fixed" (permanent) after a number of hours

[Hardy Boy]

Even if all this bizarre stuff you and slow66! advocate stood up to scrutiny, which it absolutely doesn't, it would not go anywhere with any court because it does not in any way undermine the case against JB.

You seem to think...'ha if we can show that EP interfered with the soc in the kitchen its game over because this would call into question EP's integrity'.  Not so.  It would do nothing to explain the case against JB:

- silencer: blood, paint and scratches
- SC: lack of debris on her nightdress and person
- JM's testimony
- how NB made the call to JB having sustained gunshot wounds in the bedroom

You do not need to be legally qualified to understand the above.

Do you think Curly, Larry and Snow would understand it  though Cutie

[Cambridgecutie]

All you need is one conclusive piece of evidence proving JBs innocence for everything else to crumble away, Cutie, be it Mugford, the silencer or anything else!
For instance the CT think the Milbank phone call is JBs alibi, and obviously if it is accepted will sweep aside all other evidence against him!

No one needs to prove their innocence either at trial or at any subequent CoA hearing.  Often this is simply not possible because there is not any evidence available to prove definitive innocence (or guilt). 

At trial the burden of proof is with the prosecution to prove the defendant is guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  That's a pretty low bar.  In JB's case it was done 10/2 majority.

At any subsequent CoA hearing the burden is with the defence to show 'fresh evidence' which fundamentally alters a key aspect of the case against JB at trial to the extent that 3 appeal court judges will think ' oh just wow, had jurors heard this at trial I bet they would not have returned the verdicts they did!'  And the only key aspect that will have this effect is undermining the blood/silencer. 

There was no 999 call.  Just the GPO linking the open line at WHF to EP.  Those that understand the case know this as it can be evidenced from the  physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.  NB made the call to JB, NB hears gunshots upstairs (SC opening fire on June prone in bed) NB drops the handset where it was found and runs upstairs where he sustained his facial shots.  This can be proven from all the physical evidence captured at soc.  There was one phone call from WHF: NB to JB.  Claims that NB called EP and someone inside dialled 999 are wrong supported by all the physcial evidence.