Jeremy Bamber is defiant, and believes there's a " cover up "

[Steve_uk]

Members may care to examine these earlier posts. I  believe The second shot was not an accident but a deliberate act to cover up the accidental shooting of June.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10645.msg492394.html#msg492394

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10645.msg494127.html#msg494127

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10728.msg494521.html#msg494521

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11984.msg552825.html#msg552825

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,12558.msg581275.html#msg581275

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,12309.msg570035.html#msg570035

There is a discrepancy between the bullet weight as recorded by Taylor and the bullet weight given by MF

I see the so called first shot as a deliberate act rather than an operational accident. To me it is more cold and calculating than the accident. It gave EP a chance to weave a story around the death of June. If it was known that she was alive at an earlier time and ended up dead how did it happen?

Here are a few examples the police could have used.

1 She was alive at X O’clock. It looks like she heard a shot and saw SC dead on her bed with a neck wound. She at last felt safe and returned to her bedroom and lay on the bed after placing her rifle by the window. A stunned SC comes round and runs to the main bedroom. She shoots and kills June before laying down by the bed with the bible and kills herself.

2 She was alive at X O’clock. Sheila had left her for dead in the kitchen. She manages to struggle up stairs. She goes to her bedside table and picks up her bible before walking round the bed to the box room When Sheila does not appear she goes to her room where she has fallen asleep.

AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE ABOVE. She creeps up and shoots her in the neck. Thinking her dead she returns to the box room and waits. SC recovers goes to bedroom and shoots June as 1 above.

Or maybe this She was alive at X O’clock. Sheila had left her for dead in the kitchen. She manages to struggle up stairs. She goes to her bedside table and picks up her bible before walking round the bed to the box room. She hears someone say one dead female and she exits the box room to be shot by the TFG.

The extra shot affords the police a reason for the manner of Junes death even if they did not know if she was alive in the first instance. If she had a much later TOD than NB and the twins because they had been the first to die. Even without forensic methods, if there had been say 4 hours elapsed between the deaths the differences in RM of the victims would suggest June’s survival. In these circumstances people would wonder how she had survived for so much longer than the others but ended up dead in the final analysis.



Why would June struggle upstairs and not head for the telephone? She could at least call her sister if she didn't wish to involve police.

[Adam]

'It turns out the police had held firearms training exercises at the farm that morning – and they don’t dispute this.'

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The police didn't hang about with there training exercise. Doing it before the crime scene photos were taken.

[Adam]

“They had to admit that, partly because they asked Jeremy’s permission to do it'.

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Surprised he never mentioned it for decades.

[Jane]

It's only outlandish if it's incorrect. The Gazette has possibly misrepresented the claims. The argument is that police quite rightly went with Sheila, until there was a danger of what happened being exposed. The danger in question would have been a consequence of RB and the relatives going to the press. The problem is that the police made a decision not to come clean at the outset. That decision arguably governs their actions further down the line. It's not like they can go back in time and change their decision. So they were stuck with it.

Arguing a point doesn't make it correct, does it? Sheila being accidentally shot by police doesn't stop four other victims from being dead, nor does it preclude JB from having fired the first, mortal, not immediately fatal shot. Chances are high that they wouldn't have known she wasn't already deceased.

[Bubo bubo]

I see the so called first shot as a deliberate act rather than an operational accident. To me it is more cold and calculating than the accident. It gave EP a chance to weave a story around the death of June. If it was known that she was alive at an earlier time and ended up dead how did it happen?

Here are a few examples the police could have used.

1 She was alive at X O’clock. It looks like she heard a shot and saw SC dead on her bed with a neck wound. She at last felt safe and returned to her bedroom and lay on the bed after placing her rifle by the window. A stunned SC comes round and runs to the main bedroom. She shoots and kills June before laying down by the bed with the bible and kills herself.

2 She was alive at X O’clock. Sheila had left her for dead in the kitchen. She manages to struggle up stairs. She goes to her bedside table and picks up her bible before walking round the bed to the box room When Sheila does not appear she goes to her room where she has fallen asleep.

AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE ABOVE. She creeps up and shoots her in the neck. Thinking her dead she returns to the box room and waits. SC recovers goes to bedroom and shoots June as 1 above.

Or maybe this She was alive at X O’clock. Sheila had left her for dead in the kitchen. She manages to struggle up stairs. She goes to her bedside table and picks up her bible before walking round the bed to the box room. She hears someone say one dead female and she exits the box room to be shot by the TFG.

The extra shot affords the police a reason for the manner of Junes death even if they did not know if she was alive in the first instance. If she had a much later TOD than NB and the twins because they had been the first to die. Even without forensic methods, if there had been say 4 hours elapsed between the deaths the differences in RM of the victims would suggest June’s survival. In these circumstances people would wonder how she had survived for so much longer than the others but ended up dead in the final analysis.



Why would June struggle upstairs and not head for the telephone? She could at least call her sister if she didn't wish to involve police.

It is possible that the phone was removed and hidden by SC at this point. No one can know exactly how events unfolded between JB leaving and the police entry. Even the police would not know precisely how it played out using the original crime scene before the three adults were moved as part of a restaging of the crime scene. I just constructed a series of possibilities for arguments sake. I do not know what the police would have used to set out what happened for the original case of four murders and a suicide so gave some examples.

[Bubo bubo]

It is possible that the phone was removed and hidden by SC at this point. No one can know exactly how events unfolded between JB leaving and the police entry. Even the police would not know precisely how it played out using the original crime scene before the three adults were moved as part of a restaging of the crime scene. I just constructed a series of possibilities for arguments sake. I do not know what the police would have used to set out what happened for the original case of four murders and a suicide so gave some examples.

For those who doubt the possibility of the police accidently shooting June I would draw your attention to the criticisms of PV by Professer Knight as posted by David 1819

No, he simply checked for a pulse and confirmed they were dead. There was no attempt made to establish a time.


This is an extract from Bernard Knights 5/9/86 witness statement on the time of death issue.

“In general, I have little criticism of the way in which Dr. Vanezis
conducted his post mortems, especially bearing in mind that he
had five cases to deal with in a short space of time. Perhaps the
major criticism would be his lack of any attempt to estimate the
time of death. I fully realise that this is a very inaccurate exercise,
but temperatures of bodies at the scene should have been taken
for completeness sake in case some very unusual result was
obtained. I realise that he was not called to the scene (or did not
arrive) until much later than is the usual practice of most Home
Office pathologists, but this is due to the different conditions which
pertain in and around London. Also his description of the actual
external appearance of the bullet wounds are perhaps not as full as
one would like, in terms of description of exact size, extent and
appearance of powder marks, burns, abrasion colour etc., but
again he was undoubtedly working under pressure. In general the
examinations were quite adequate.”[/b][/i][/size]

[Bubo bubo]

It's only outlandish if it's incorrect. The Gazette has possibly misrepresented the claims. The argument is that police quite rightly went with Sheila, until there was a danger of what happened being exposed. The danger in question would have been a consequence of RB and the relatives going to the press. The problem is that the police made a decision not to come clean at the outset. That decision arguably governs their actions further down the line. It's not like they can go back in time and change their decision. So they were stuck with it.

Logically if it was an accident when removing the Anschutz there would have been no reason to swap the bullet PV20 and why would the family go to the press and more importantly how would they know. Afterall PV said he had seen two shot suicides though perhaps not with a rifle. Given the rifles profile it could be possible and not forgetting his comments about initially saying she would be stunned from the 'so called first shot'. In my view it was a deliberate action in the first instance to enable them to claim June and SC were fighting for control of a weapon and SC was subsequently able to kill June or some other explanation which fitted the narrative they wished to deploy.

[Jane]

It's only outlandish if it's incorrect. The Gazette has possibly misrepresented the claims. The argument is that police quite rightly went with Sheila, until there was a danger of what happened being exposed. The danger in question would have been a consequence of RB and the relatives going to the press. The problem is that the police made a decision not to come clean at the outset. That decision arguably governs their actions further down the line. It's not like they can go back in time and change their decision. So they were stuck with it.

'Course, it's entirely unnecessary for JB to believe there was a cover up, isn't it? I mean, he'd know there wasn't one, wouldn't he? All he has to do is claim there was such.

[ILB]

The earliest inclination ( wrong word discussion is better) of any police involvement in the death of Shelia Caffell came from the main man in the case himself. an off hand conversation between Jeremy Bamber and Gérard Wiggins the mechanic, circa 1985. This is before the first arrest in September 1985 and when the mantra was albeit under suspicion from relatives et al, murder suicide.

The only thing I was interested in this particular conversation is I cant see why Bamber would mention this even as a gulity party. 

[ILB]

Wiggins and Bamber weren't close. He was his mechanic. No other witness in the case realm makes any mention of Jeremy Bamber making any sort of conversation along this lines, whether it be Julie, Colin, friends or family. It almost seems JB wished to talk about it to a third party who had no particular relationship of a serious nature to him.

Even if JB is gulity, why would he be alleging police involvement as early as 85? Even before arrest?

[ILB]

“They had to admit that, partly because they asked Jeremy’s permission to do it'.

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Surprised he never mentioned it for decades.

He mentioned in 85 according to his car mechsnic Gérard wiggins.

Why he did so I have no idea from any stance.

Hasten to add me personally , I dont believe the police shot Shelia on a training excersise. It's ludicrous

[Bubo bubo]

The earliest inclination ( wrong word discussion is better) of any police involvement in the death of Shelia Caffell came from the main man in the case himself. an off hand conversation between Jeremy Bamber and Gérard Wiggins the mechanic, circa 1985. This is before the first arrest in September 1985 and when the mantra was albeit under suspicion from relatives et al, murder suicide.

The only thing I was interested in this particular conversation is I cant see why Bamber would mention this even as a gulity party.

As far as remember in the very early days after charge he was all over the place. He had seen a body at a window and knew at least one person was alive. He had also become frightened when the TFG stormed in. I have seen a post where he has said ' What are they doing they are killing my family' or some words to that effect. He was trying to understand what had happened since he knew he was innocent and could not understand  the contradictions in events.

This is an early set of posts.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1236.msg38627.html#msg38627

[Steve_uk]

Wiggins and Bamber weren't close. He was his mechanic. No other witness in the case realm makes any mention of Jeremy Bamber making any sort of conversation along this lines, whether it be Julie, Colin, friends or family. It almost seems JB wished to talk about it to a third party who had no particular relationship of a serious nature to him.

Even if JB is gulity, why would he be alleging police involvement as early as 85? Even before arrest?

..because it cast off suspicion when he sensed the net was tightening in other directions.

[Steve_uk]

The earliest inclination ( wrong word discussion is better) of any police involvement in the death of Shelia Caffell came from the main man in the case himself. an off hand conversation between Jeremy Bamber and Gérard Wiggins the mechanic, circa 1985. This is before the first arrest in September 1985 and when the mantra was albeit under suspicion from relatives et al, murder suicide.

The only thing I was interested in this particular conversation is I cant see why Bamber would mention this even as a gulity party.

..because many killers can't help blabbing about their involvement: Barry George allegedly, the latest is John Worboys, Colin Pitchfork, Fred West, Levi Bellfield, Sidney Cooke. I'm sure there are many others.

[Steve_uk]

It is possible that the phone was removed and hidden by SC at this point. No one can know exactly how events unfolded between JB leaving and the police entry. Even the police would not know precisely how it played out using the original crime scene before the three adults were moved as part of a restaging of the crime scene. I just constructed a series of possibilities for arguments sake. I do not know what the police would have used to set out what happened for the original case of four murders and a suicide so gave some examples.

I think the Defence should make up its mind whether Sheila was acting rationally as she saw it with a preconceived plan or was in a state of psychosis and not aware of what she was doing. The purported telephone call around 6:00am when she didn't speak is a case in point.

It seems to me the Defence wants it both ways.