Stuart Bower

[snow66!]

I do have some material which supports what Mike Tesko said on this.  Because this was a unique situation for Essex Police they arranged what were termed as "informatives", which were a SOC traing exercise. I believe it did happen, but exactly when I am not sure.

Thanks, ngb!

[Bubo bubo]

I thought it was a fantasy, 2 0 what a result 👍

We are not playing 'Would I lie to you'. I was at a conference and was talking to a guy and to make a bit of conversation I talked about JB's hearing at the European court that day (2009). I then said I had seen the family at the Jubilee celebrations in Tollesbury. I think that was in 1978.. I kind of kept up to date with the case after I moved away and had moved by the time of the incident. However the exchange did take place and I have repeated his words to the best of my memory. He did not call it informatives. I guess it was a good opportunity to appraise various trainees and so bent the rules a bit.

[Bubo bubo]

We are not playing 'Would I lie to you'. I was at a conference and was talking to a guy and to make a bit of conversation I talked about JB's hearing at the European court that day (2009). I then said I had seen the family at the Jubilee celebrations in Tollesbury. I think that was in 1978.. I kind of kept up to date with the case after I moved away and had moved by the time of the incident. However the exchange did take place and I have repeated his words to the best of my memory. He did not call it informatives. I guess it was a good opportunity to appraise various trainees and so bent the rules a bit.

Maybe it was a mixed group who were in a training class at HQ and they decided to van them out to the site for a quick look round and the trainees called it training but it was called informatives by the higher ups. I am 100% sure it happened particularly because the information is from two separate sources whatever it was called

[Bubo bubo]

We are not playing 'Would I lie to you'. I was at a conference and was talking to a guy and to make a bit of conversation I talked about JB's hearing at the European court that day (2009). I then said I had seen the family at the Jubilee celebrations in Tollesbury. I think that was in 1978.. I kind of kept up to date with the case after I moved away and had moved by the time of the incident. However the exchange did take place and I have repeated his words to the best of my memory. He did not call it informatives. I guess it was a good opportunity to appraise various trainees and so bent the rules a bit.

After completing Ashford, recruits returned to Essex for divisional continuation training at local stations and at Essex Police Headquarters, Chelmsford, but the formal training school was Ashford.

[Cambridgecutie]

Thanks for that NGB…I think the key part for me, was the build up of the word TFG, it puts it as though they were running around doing some sort of training exercise.
I don’t dispute some other officers may have been invited to look at a murder scene, that’s a learning curve, the murder suicide had already been called anyway.
But SOCO didn’t start their exam till about 10.00am and Woodcock was dealing with the weapon on Sheila at 11.10am, and Sheila was bagged and ready to go to the morgue not long after.

Where they fit a big training exercise in, I don’t see how they can, And even if other officers were shown round, it doesn’t mean bodies being interfered with.

I agree.  I can see how someone like DI Cook could provide some on the job training to say DC Hammerlsey about handling and processing exhibits but the idea of officers running around treating the soc as a training session doesn't ring true. 

The police have buildings where they set up mocks much the same way as they do in the military.

From our friend AI:

AI Overview
Yes, police forces and specialized tactical units (such as SWAT in the US) have specialized facilities to practice raids and high-risk entries.

Tactical Training Centers: These are specialized facilities designed to simulate various environments, such as residential homes, apartment buildings, or commercial spaces, allowing teams to practice breaching doors, navigating rooms, and securing targets.

"Shoot Houses": These are often specifically designed, modular structures where officers can practice using live ammunition to train in close-quarters combat and room clearing, designed to simulate real-life, high-stress scenarios.

Training Simulations: Officers often train for specialized scenarios, including hostage rescue, barricaded suspects, and drug raids, which may require different tactics and entry methods.

Multi-use Facilities: Some police departments use specialized, dedicated training centers, such as the City of London Police’s Marlowe House, for officer training, which can include tactical, scenario-based training.

Operational Preparation: Before a raid, police teams typically conduct briefings, and they may also use intelligence to create a simulation of the target, including mapping out rooms, locating entrances and exits, and identifying potential hazards, as part of their training.

[Cambridgecutie]

UK police use highly specialized, immersive, and often purpose-built sites in Gravesend (Kent) and Yorkshire for training, particularly for Special Operations Centre (SOC) scenarios, firearms, public order, and crime scene investigation.

1. Metropolitan Police Specialist Training Centre (MPSTC) - Gravesend, Kent
Opened in 2003, this £55m, 38.8-hectare complex is a major hub for training Metropolitan Police, City of London Police, and British Transport Police. It is designed to simulate urban environments for armed response and public order training.

Key Training Buildings/Areas in Gravesend:
"Mock Town" / Urban Street Scene: Features realistic facades, including a parade of shops, a bank, a pub, a nightclub, and a residential flat complex.
Specialist Structures: Replicas of an Underground station with carriages, a train, a stadium, and a life-size plane fuselage.
Live Skills House: A three-level "skills house" designed for 360-degree, live-fire training (including façade entry).
Firing Ranges: Indoor and outdoor, using advanced technology to simulate shoot/no-shoot scenarios.
Support Facilities: 300-bed accommodation block, classrooms, and stables for police horses.

2. Carr Gate Complex & Regional Sites - Yorkshire

West Yorkshire Police use the state-of-the-art Carr Gate Complex near Wakefield (opened 2014) for regional and national training.
Key Training Buildings/Areas in Yorkshire:
Image of West Yorkshire Police Training and Development Centre
West Yorkshire Police Training and Development Centre
Police academy
OpenBishopgarth House, Carr Gate, Bradford Rd
A two-storey "Live Fire Skills House" designed as a community home, used for training in armed raids and hostage rescue.
Image of West Yorkshire Police Training and Development Centre
West Yorkshire Police Training and Development Centre
Police academy
OpenBishopgarth House, Carr Gate, Bradford Rd
A facility designed to simulate large crowd control, riot scenarios, and anti-social behaviour.
Image of West Yorkshire Police Training and Development Centre
West Yorkshire Police Training and Development Centre
Police academy
OpenBishopgarth House, Carr Gate, Bradford Rd
A dedicated facility that includes a "real-world" 3-bedroom police house, a simulated parade of shops (pub, corner shop, estate agents), and a garage for vehicle forensics.
Image of West Yorkshire Police Training and Development Centre
West Yorkshire Police Training and Development Centre
Police academy
OpenBishopgarth House, Carr Gate, Bradford Rd
Used for specialized, high-stress driver training.
Both sites are highly secured and, in the case of Gravesend, a "no-filming" zone used for high-stakes, realistic training.

[Hardy Boy]

I agree.  I can see how someone like DI Cook could provide some on the job training to say DC Hammerlsey about handling and processing exhibits but the idea of officers running around treating the soc as a training session doesn't ring true. 

The police have buildings where they set up mocks much the same way as they do in the military.

From our friend AI:

AI Overview
Yes, police forces and specialized tactical units (such as SWAT in the US) have specialized facilities to practice raids and high-risk entries.

Tactical Training Centers: These are specialized facilities designed to simulate various environments, such as residential homes, apartment buildings, or commercial spaces, allowing teams to practice breaching doors, navigating rooms, and securing targets.

"Shoot Houses": These are often specifically designed, modular structures where officers can practice using live ammunition to train in close-quarters combat and room clearing, designed to simulate real-life, high-stress scenarios.

Training Simulations: Officers often train for specialized scenarios, including hostage rescue, barricaded suspects, and drug raids, which may require different tactics and entry methods.

Multi-use Facilities: Some police departments use specialized, dedicated training centers, such as the City of London Police’s Marlowe House, for officer training, which can include tactical, scenario-based training.

Operational Preparation: Before a raid, police teams typically conduct briefings, and they may also use intelligence to create a simulation of the target, including mapping out rooms, locating entrances and exits, and identifying potential hazards, as part of their training.

Cook’s leaving with the bodies for the mortuary by 1.00pm. Woodcock (last TFG inside) is back at HQ by 12.15pm, and he’s helped bag Sheila up before he leaves.

SOCO didn’t even start till late morning, and Sheila’s already being bagged before Woodcock goes. So where exactly is the time for a firearms training exercise with bodies in situ?

When does this ghost firearms team actually arrive? Cook was being pressured to hurry up and get the bodies away for 1.00pm.
But Bubo’s informant says it was FIREARMS and he was there taking part himself?  Was he training SOCO or was he training Firearms?

[Hardy Boy]

We are not playing 'Would I lie to you'. I was at a conference and was talking to a guy and to make a bit of conversation I talked about JB's hearing at the European court that day (2009). I then said I had seen the family at the Jubilee celebrations in Tollesbury. I think that was in 1978.. I kind of kept up to date with the case after I moved away and had moved by the time of the incident. However the exchange did take place and I have repeated his words to the best of my memory. He did not call it informatives. I guess it was a good opportunity to appraise various trainees and so bent the rules a bit.

My pun was intended for Cutie, I was out cycling all day and purposely didn’t want to know the early kick off Score for Utd, me and Cutie both like UTD, I watched some of the highlights as soon as I got back and couldn’t believe the score, but best of all the way UTD played against arch rivals. FANTASY (imaging Impossible) I honestly thought they had no chance.

[Hardy Boy]

Maybe it was a mixed group who were in a training class at HQ and they decided to van them out to the site for a quick look round and the trainees called it training but it was called informatives by the higher ups. I am 100% sure it happened particularly because the information is from two separate sources whatever it was called

Firearms training with bodies in situ to maybe it was just a quick look round and they called it training That’s not 100% sure  that’s moving the goalposts like you usually do!  So Bubo’s now gone from Maybe a mixed group, firearms training with bodies in situ to maybe a van visit.  That’s not 100% sure Bubo that’s a maybe, and in my book that’s a contradiction!

[Hardy Boy]

We are not playing 'Would I lie to you'. I was at a conference and was talking to a guy and to make a bit of conversation I talked about JB's hearing at the European court that day (2009). I then said I had seen the family at the Jubilee celebrations in Tollesbury. I think that was in 1978.. I kind of kept up to date with the case after I moved away and had moved by the time of the incident. However the exchange did take place and I have repeated his words to the best of my memory. He did not call it informatives. I guess it was a good opportunity to appraise various trainees and so bent the rules a bit.

So it was a Guy at a Conference who Bent the rules a bit for you?

[Bubo bubo]

So it was a Guy at a Conference who Bent the rules a bit for you?

He did not bend the rules for me that was EP who organised it.

[Bubo bubo]

Firearms training with bodies in situ to maybe it was just a quick look round and they called it training That’s not 100% sure  that’s moving the goalposts like you usually do!  So Bubo’s now gone from Maybe a mixed group, firearms training with bodies in situ to maybe a van visit.  That’s not 100% sure Bubo that’s a maybe, and in my book that’s a contradiction!

Once again you twist my words. He was a TFG trainee and the purpose of the visit according to him was to view the SOC not to do firearms training. This is what he said and I posted. It is possible that the trainees envisaged careers in different disciplines within the force. A bit like medical doctors. He never mentioned the other participants or their jobs. The police have plenty of vans for transporting employees and if they envisaged a largish group they would use a van rather than a few cars.

This was what I posted.

I think it was called informatives because it was not training exercise as such. It was a means of showing potential TFG operatives the sort of situations they would be dealing with when they qualified. The scenes they would see that would stay with them throughout their lives.

[snow66!]

Firearms training with bodies in situ to maybe it was just a quick look round and they called it training That’s not 100% sure  that’s moving the goalposts like you usually do!  So Bubo’s now gone from Maybe a mixed group, firearms training with bodies in situ to maybe a van visit.  That’s not 100% sure Bubo that’s a maybe, and in my book that’s a contradiction!

JB explains everything in that article that Steve posted in reply 61, HB!
He certainly claims it was a TFG squad who arrived about two hours after the initial teams of TFG.

[Hardy Boy]

Once again you twist my words. He was a TFG trainee and the purpose of the visit according to him was to view the SOC not to do firearms training. This is what he said and I posted. It is possible that the trainees envisaged careers in different disciplines within the force. A bit like medical doctors. He never mentioned the other participants or their jobs. The police have plenty of vans for transporting employees and if they envisaged a largish group they would use a van rather than a few cars.

This was what I posted.

Bubo, I’m not “twisting your words” at all,  I’m quoting the way you keep reshaping this story.

First it was “training with bodies in situ” from an informant. Then it became maybe a mixed group.
Then maybe a van visit.  Now it’s TFG trainee view the SOC / informatives.

informatives,  (a look round) is a completely different claim to the ones people are suggesting!

[Hardy Boy]

JB explains everything in that article that Steve posted in reply 61, HB!
He certainly claims it was a TFG squad who arrived about two hours after the initial teams of TFG.

Morgue was booked for 1.00pm, Cook was asked earlier why the bodies wasn’t on their way to the Morgue.  So who organised the training exercise, when one department is wanting it rushed and another department is wanting a training exercise?  Doesn’t this now show you how bad Taff really was?

Bamber says they arrived two hours after the first TFG left,   that puts them arriving there around 10.45am if the early team left 8.45 as per Adam’s statement.
Woodcock is still in there dealing with Sheila’s weapon around 11.10, and Sheila is being bagged up around 11.30, and Woodcock is back at HQ by 12.15.
So when exactly are these mystery trainees meant to be moving bodies around like props? The timeline doesn’t allow it. Are you saying they arrived at the scene and started humping bodies about while Soco is doing their investigation?