Stuart Bower

[snow66!]

Morgue was booked for 1.00pm, Cook was asked earlier why the bodies wasn’t on their way to the Morgue.  So who organised the training exercise, when one department is wanting it rushed and another department is wanting a training exercise?  Doesn’t this now show you how bad Taff really was?

Bamber says they arrived two hours after the first TFG left,   that puts them arriving there around 10.45am if the early team left 8.45 as per Adam’s statement.
Woodcock is still in there dealing with Sheila’s weapon around 11.10, and Sheila is being bagged up around 11.30, and Woodcock is back at HQ by 12.15.
So when exactly are these mystery trainees meant to be moving bodies around like props? The timeline doesn’t allow it. Are you saying they arrived at the scene and started humping bodies about while Soco is doing their investigation?

I took it that the TFG training group arrived 2 hrs after the first teams, HB!
One group arrived about 6.45 so that would mean the  training group arrived about 8.45?

[Bubo bubo]

Bubo, I’m not “twisting your words” at all,  I’m quoting the way you keep reshaping this story.

First it was “training with bodies in situ” from an informant. Then it became maybe a mixed group.
Then maybe a van visit.  Now it’s TFG trainee view the SOC / informatives.

informatives,  (a look round) is a completely different claim to the ones people are suggesting!

Here are the main thrust posts I made in sequence. I have not posted all of them.

1
I have met a person who claims to have taken part. That is all I am prepared to say on this matter. I know you will want me to provide more detail but I have to respect the fact that it came with a request to keep our conversation confidential. I do not purposely post lies and keep my promises.

2
I think it was called informatives because it was not training exercise as such. It was a means of showing potential TFG operatives the sort of situations they would be dealing with when they qualified. The scenes they would see that would stay with them throughout their lives.

3
It was not a long inquisitive conversation. The informant told me it was on the day with the bodies in situ. I will not repeat his  description but it came across as authentic. It was more of a throw in in a more detailed natter we were having. I put it down to some form of bragging rites. You know when you tell somebody about yourself and they try to top it. The informant did not give a time.

4
We are not playing 'Would I lie to you'. I was at a conference and was talking to a guy and to make a bit of conversation I talked about JB's hearing at the European court that day (2009). I then said I had seen the family at the Jubilee celebrations in Tollesbury. I think that was in 1978.. I kind of kept up to date with the case after I moved away and had moved by the time of the incident. However the exchange did take place and I have repeated his words to the best of my memory. He did not call it informatives. I guess it was a good opportunity to appraise various trainees and so bent the rules a bit.

The other posts were suggestions in order to answer some of the questions that were posed by others based on my information and some from others.  Like what was the time? and references to others saying they were Soco trainees. I have not changed my basic information as you tried to imply by mixing up the two types together. I was trying to be helpful without breaking my promise.

[Hardy Boy]

I took it that the TFG training group arrived 2 hrs after the first teams, HB!
One group arrived about 6.45 so that would mean the  training group arrived about 8.45?

Right got what your saying now Snow, thanks.   Informative, just to look I’m taking it, like NGB said it’s understandable, but totally wrong.  Mikes always talked about it, but I’ve never seen anything to back it up, it’s the same old story Snow, once you cry Wolf the number of times it has the effect that one is not believed when it is true.

[Hardy Boy]

I took it that the TFG training group arrived 2 hrs after the first teams, HB!
One group arrived about 6.45 so that would mean the  training group arrived about 8.45?

This is the movement  and timeline of Woodcock,  Snow, he doesn’t  mention any addition TFG attending, and  bear in mind he’d helped Bag Sheila up before he left?  Thats why I question about the bodies used as Props.  I don’t know what he means at  9.30am though does it say re emptied  house?

[Hardy Boy]

This is the movement  and timeline of Woodcock,  Snow, he doesn’t  mention any addition TFG attending, and  bear in mind he’d helped Bag Sheila up before he left?  Thats why I question about the bodies used as Props.  I don’t know what he means at  9.30am though does it say re emptied  house?

Stan Jones backs Woodcock with his statement, Stan returned and the bodies were being removed at 11.45 am.  It’s all just a tight timeline for any TFG group to arrive and start moving bodies about and use as Props as Bamber is suggesting?

[snow66!]

This is the movement  and timeline of Woodcock,  Snow, he doesn’t  mention any addition TFG attending, and  bear in mind he’d helped Bag Sheila up before he left?  Thats why I question about the bodies used as Props.  I don’t know what he means at  9.30am though does it say re emptied  house?

It certainly looks like 'emptied', HB!

[Bubo bubo]

Right got what your saying now Snow, thanks.   Informative, just to look I’m taking it, like NGB said it’s understandable, but totally wrong.  Mikes always talked about it, but I’ve never seen anything to back it up, it’s the same old story Snow, once you cry Wolf the number of times it has the effect that one is not believed when it is true.

I can understand your problem. I think. You thought I was holding a similar position to MT. It looks to me he has inflated a TFG team quick walk around with observations and taking say 20 to 30 minutes at some point earlier in the process. into a SOCO team moving stuff about for training purposes.

I can assure you I do not behave in such a way. I make my own mind up and present arguments for discussion. Time will tell whether I am right or wrong. I would not manipulate a piece of the the actual evidence to suit a particular theory I wished to promote.

[Bubo bubo]

It certainly looks like 'emptied', HB!

This may be due to a misread of his logbook due to his handwriting. If you put it into context with other following notes it could be re-entered house to show the SOCO the layout.

[snow66!]

This may be due to a misread of his logbook due to his handwriting. If you put it into context with other following notes it could be re-entered house to show the SOCO the layout.

Yes, I did think re-entered made more sense myself, Bubo!

[Cambridgecutie]

There will be a police training manual for 1985 somewhere.  Maybe a police museum.

[Bubo bubo]

There will be a police training manual for 1985 somewhere.  Maybe a police museum.

There are some aspects of police work that can't be taught by a manual. This is also true in many other occupations. The WHF murders was seen as an opportunity to bring the manual into reality. I believe it was wrong. Whether this has legal implications for those involved I do not know.

[Cambridgecutie]

There are some aspects of police work that can't be taught by a manual. This is also true in many other occupations. The WHF murders was seen as an opportunity to bring the manual into reality. I believe it was wrong. Whether this has legal implications for those involved I do not know.

Absolutely not true.  You make it up as you go along.  The manual will be the definitive guide for both the employee and employer.  It is required in the event of any disciplinary action, termination, legal disuputes, tribunals etc, etc.  Especially important for those trained to use firearms.   

[Hardy Boy]

Absolutely not true.  You make it up as you go along.  The manual will be the definitive guide for both the employee and employer.  It is required in the event of any disciplinary action, termination, legal disuputes, tribunals etc, etc.  Especially important for those trained to use firearms.   

True Cutie, Manuals exist for a reason,  accountability at the end of the day. 

I found a letter/Statement that Mike was referring to Firearms Training taken Place,  Montgomery says it may not have related to that particular incident. He isn’t confirming WHF training but he does say I can’t recall it, and it might not even have been about Tolleshunt D’Arcy.?   

Take this into consideration.. If Montgomery was a serving Inspector at the time, writing officially to a Chief Inspector, he’s trying to cover his own backside,  for me it’s career suicide to invent something like that and hang it on his colleagues, or rely on his Colleagues to keep Schtum?   It wouldn’t just be one or two blokes. You’d be relying on, but TFG trainees, instructors, HQ/Ashford training staff, plus whoever authorised it, plus whoever logged entry.  We’ve already seen Bubo’s bloke break ranks personally to him, and telling folks at a conference he didn’t know 😂

[Hardy Boy]

There will be a police training manual for 1985 somewhere.  Maybe a police museum.

What and why Bubo is trying to use the TFG training exercise for his advantage, he’s trying to turn it into why the Police moved Neville from the Aga, His theory or one of many, they moved Neville because the Police shot Sheila, or they moved Neville to stage a guess what’s Happened game for the Trainees?  His informant now helps him with his theory!

[Rob_]

Stan Jones backs Woodcock with his statement, Stan returned and the bodies were being removed at 11.45 am.  It’s all just a tight timeline for any TFG group to arrive and start moving bodies about and use as Props as Bamber is suggesting?

Cook says he left White House Farm for the mortuary at 1.15 and the bodies were removed at 1.00

I don't trust what Woodcock says for example Cook says he got Inspector Montgomery the firearms officer to be escorted to the body of Sheila to make the rifle safe. Woodcock says it was him?

Cook says only the four of his team were in the house and no one was allowed inside while they did their investigation.