Jeremy had a furious row with Nevill on the evening prior to the murders....

[David]

It is becoming clear that things were not as they appeared on the evening prior to the murders.

Jeremy was apparently asked to give up his home at Goldhanger in order that Sheila and the twins be closer to Nevill and June.

Jeremy's story that Nevill and June had suggested that the twins be adopted is hogwash, just another lie by a murderer intent upon covering his tracks. We only have Jeremy's say so that such a conversation ever took place as the others are all conveniently DEAD.

The farm secretary gave evidence that Nevill was angry that evening when she called and this bears out the argument with Jeremy over his cottage. Jeremy certainly didn't want to give up his love nest but his parents were not amused at the way he had previously entertaining a married woman there.  They decided that Sheila needed the cottage and with her close to hand they could keep an eye on her and the twins.

This certainly did not go down too well with Jeremy, no wonder he told Mugford that he was pissed off and that tonight's the night!

[smiffy]

no

[Enigma]

Dave,
Where did the information come from that Ralph and June wanted Sheila in the cottage?
It sounds much more plausible than they wanted Sheila to farm out the twins when they lived with Colin anyway!
But I would like to know where that came from?
Ta

[chochokeira]

David, please go to the foyer and introduce yourself. You are not cleared to post until you are notified of this in the foyer.

[chochokeira]

It is becoming clear that things were not as they appeared on the evening prior to the murders.

Jeremy was apparently asked to give up his home at Goldhanger in order that Sheila and the twins be closer to Nevill and June.

Jeremy's story that Nevill and June had suggested that the twins be adopted is hogwash, just another lie by a murderer intent upon covering his tracks. We only have Jeremy's say so that such a conversation ever took place as the others are all conveniently DEAD.

The farm secretary gave evidence that Nevill was angry that evening when she called and this bears out the argument with Jeremy over his cottage. Jeremy certainly didn't want to give up his love nest but his parents were not amused at the way he had previously entertaining a married woman there.  They decided that Sheila needed the cottage and with her close to hand they could keep an eye on her and the twins.

This certainly did not go down too well with Jeremy, no wonder he told Mugford that he was pissed off and that tonight's the night!

If this was true this claim would have been made at the trial. It was not made at the trial because it is completely untrue.

You stated:

"We only have Jeremy's say so that such a conversation ever took place as the others are all conveniently DEAD." Then who do you allege corroborated your fictional story - the dog?

You have not even attempted to corroborate this complete load of nonsense because lies cannot be coroborated. Now please go to the foyer and introduce yourself and do not post again until you are cleared.

[chochokeira]

Dave,
Where did the information come from that Ralph and June wanted Sheila in the cottage?
It sounds much more plausible than they wanted Sheila to farm out the twins when they lived with Colin anyway!
But I would like to know where that came from?
Ta

Dave's imagination, that's the only place this came from.

[chochokeira]

David, please go to the foyer and introduce yourself. You are not cleared to post until you are notified of this in the foyer.

Who are you...the cyber police??   

Please go to the forum, Dave, and introduce yourself. Do not post again until you do so.

[Enigma]

Then who do you allege corroborated your fictional story - the dog?

Ha ha ha ha ..... a classic line

[Enigma]

Dave,
Where did the information come from that Ralph and June wanted Sheila in the cottage?
It sounds much more plausible than they wanted Sheila to farm out the twins when they lived with Colin anyway!
But I would like to know where that came from?
Ta

I first came across a reference to this in the statement by Dr Hugh Cameron Ferguson, June and Sheila's psychiatrist.

Dr Ferguson had treated June for many years before treating Sheila.  He was thus well placed to comprehend the thoughts of both women.  In his statement dated 18 September 1985 he specifically referred to the comment by Jeremy that the twins were to be adopted. He states,  "I would also add that in my view, June Bamber would not have entertained fostering out Sheila's children.  She was a devoted Grandmother."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1202.0/prev_next,next.html

I am unable to give you any more information at this time as it would be breaching a confidence.

Nice answer Dave. We need to prove we aren't just insulting morons or we are gonners on here .... that answer helps!

[Enigma]

Nice answer Dave. We need to prove we aren't just insulting morons or we are gonners on here .... that answer helps!

Oops .....  that can be read two ways!!!! I meant Dave and I being the morons not insulting of others and them being the morons!!!!
Phew

[starryian007]

Nice answer Dave. We need to prove we aren't just insulting morons or we are gonners on here .... that answer helps!

Oops .....  that can be read two ways!!!! I meant Dave and I being the morons not insulting of others and them being the morons!!!!
Phew

I totally agree with Dave. This argument has been written in statements (I am pretty sure it was either Sheila's doctor or Colin Caffell's) If anyone cares to check. The fact that Ralph and June were seriously concerned for Sheila welfare coupled with the fact that June was keen to have Sheila close by makes perfect sense. There was almost certainly an argument that ensued that night - as testified by Pamela Boutflour who phoned at 10:00PM and spoke to Ralph and stated that she thought she had "interrupted an argument" Ralph was uncharacteristically brusque and curt with Pamela over the phone. She also stated she spoke with Sheila who sounded very quiet and docile to the point of being unresponsive to basic questions posed by Pamela. Hardly the frame of mind to have a heated row with anyone.
Pamela put it down to her medication. One can deduce that it was either June or Jeremy that Ralph had the argument with. June although busy had time to speak with Pamela and sounded her normal self. Now in light of what has been discovered about the possibility of Sheila taking over Jeremy's cottage, I would seriously doubt that the heated discussion that probably took place was between June and Ralph. It was far more likely to have been between Ralph and Jeremy. This is further born out by Jeremy later stating to Julie Mugford on the phone that he was feeling "pissed off" and was in a rather fed-up state of mind. Considering we only have Jeremy's version of what took place at WHF as the rest of those who were present are dead, and Bamber has been proven to be a very cunning liar. I know which version of events I choose to believe. Well done Dave!

[Roch]

Nice answer Dave. We need to prove we aren't just insulting morons or we are gonners on here .... that answer helps!

Oops .....  that can be read two ways!!!! I meant Dave and I being the morons not insulting of others and them being the morons!!!!
Phew

I totally agree with Dave. This argument has been written in statements (I am pretty sure it was either Sheila's doctor or Colin Caffell's) If anyone cares to check. The fact that Ralph and June were seriously concerned for Sheila welfare coupled with the fact that June was keen to have Sheila close by makes perfect sense. There was almost certainly an argument that ensued that night - as testified by Anne Eaton who phoned Ralph and stated that she thought she had "interrupted an argument" Ralph was uncharacteristically brusque and curt with Anne over the phone. She also stated she spoke with Sheila who sounded very quiet and docile to the point of being unresponsive to basic questions posed by Anne. Hardly the frame of mind to have a heated row with anyone.
Anne put it down to her medication. One can deduce that it was either June or Jeremy that Ralph had the argument with. Now in light of what has been discovered about the possibility of Sheila taking over Jeremy's cottage, I would seriously doubt that the heated discussion that probably took place was between June and Ralph. It was more likely to have been between Ralph and Jeremy. This is further born out by Jeremy later stating to Julie Mugford on the phone that he was feeling "pissed off" and was in a rather fed-up state of mind. Considering we only have Jeremy's version of what took place at WHF as the rest of those who were present are dead, and Bamber has been proven to be a very cunning liar. I know which version of events I choose to believe. Well done Dave!

I am very intrested in Dave's post also.  He cannot give us more info without breaking confidence.  So we are stuck for now, regarding exploration of this avenue.

In the meantime, if we are going to explore the theme of Jeremy being a 'proven cunning liar' maybe the following should be considered...

What exactly does Jeremy state to police regarding the alleged conversation between June, Nevill and Sheila about the twins?

In 1985, who knew that mothers could be triggered to commit murder, infanticide and suicide, if questions arose regarding temporary custody of or assitance for their children? 

What is Jeremy's reaction to to the police after being informed of the deaths inside whf?

[VORTEX]

It is becoming clear that things were not as they appeared on the evening prior to the murders.

Jeremy was apparently asked to give up his home at Goldhanger in order that Sheila and the twins be closer to Nevill and June.

Jeremy's story that Nevill and June had suggested that the twins be adopted is hogwash, just another lie by a murderer intent upon covering his tracks. We only have Jeremy's say so that such a conversation ever took place as the others are all conveniently DEAD.

The farm secretary gave evidence that Nevill was angry that evening when she called and this bears out the argument with Jeremy over his cottage. Jeremy certainly didn't want to give up his love nest but his parents

were not amused at the way he had previously entertaining a married woman there.  They decided that Sheila needed the cottage and with her close to hand they could keep an eye on her and the twins.

This certainly did not go down too well with Jeremy, no wonder he told Mugford that he was pissed off and that tonight's the night!

Dave - you are so far off the mark it is laughable. You have basically outlined what would be Jeremy's perfect scenario! Sheila has his cottage in Goldhanger and he swops it for her flat in London - that would be a dream scenario for a young man who enjoyed the buzz of London. IF and it is a big IF this were true he would of been delighted and he wouldn't of been able to move his stuff quick enough. Dave....you've made this up as I've never heard anything of the sort and I've heard most things related to the case over the years. Is it me or is there a slight feeling of desperation? Seems that way when things start being made up. Essex Police and or the family are being alarmed by something at the moment.

[starryian007]

Who said anything about Jeremy taking over Sheila's flat? It may well be the case that the flat be sold to pay Sheila's debts (Which by this time were considerable)
You need proof of this scenario. It comes from Bamber's own lips!!!
I believe that Bamber would be furious that his cottage would be given to Sheila. In his original police statement Bamber says "Family discussions had taken place regarding what could be done to help Sheila. We spoke about her taking over my house, thus getting her into Essex"
This seemed fresh in his mind, so fresh that he waxed eloquently about it, but could not remember what he said in a telephone conversation to Julie Mugford only hours later.
I believe strongly that this may have been the final straw for Bamber. He knew that if his crime were to be successful, it had to be while all the family were gathered together in one place......'tonight or never'
He knew and felt the time was right to carry out his despicable plan. He was also a lazy 'ne'er do well' and he knew harvest was right around the corner. Harvest = hard work, sweat, long hours and having to endure being with his hated family. This together with the argument he had with Ralph over the cottage that night ultimately and tragically sealed their fate.

[grahameb]

Who said anything about Jeremy taking over Sheila's flat? It may well be the case that the flat be sold to pay Sheila's debts (Which by this time were considerable)
You need proof of this scenario. It comes from Bamber's own lips!!!
I believe that Bamber would be furious that his cottage would be given to Sheila. In his original police statement Bamber says "Family discussions had taken place regarding what could be done to help Sheila. We spoke about her taking over my house, thus getting her into Essex"
This seemed fresh in his mind, so fresh that he waxed eloquently about it, but could not remember what he said in a telephone conversation to Julie Mugford only hours later.
I believe strongly that this may have been the final straw for Bamber. He knew that if his crime were to be successful, it had to be while all the family were gathered together in one place......'tonight or never'
He knew and felt the time was right to carry out his despicable plan. He was also a lazy 'ne'er do well' and he knew harvest was right around the corner. Harvest = hard work, sweat, long hours and having to endure being with his hated family. This together with the argument he had with Ralph over the cottage that night ultimately and tragically sealed their fate.

Well as they say on the facebook page, "You couldn't make it up".