Jeremy had a furious row with Nevill on the evening prior to the murders....

[chochokeira]

Nice answer Dave. We need to prove we aren't just insulting morons or we are gonners on here .... that answer helps!

Oops .....  that can be read two ways!!!! I meant Dave and I being the morons not insulting of others and them being the morons!!!!
Phew

I totally agree with Dave. This argument has been written in statements (I am pretty sure it was either Sheila's doctor or Colin Caffell's) If anyone cares to check. The fact that Ralph and June were seriously concerned for Sheila welfare coupled with the fact that June was keen to have Sheila close by makes perfect sense. There was almost certainly an argument that ensued that night - as testified by Anne Eaton who phoned Ralph and stated that she thought she had "interrupted an argument" Ralph was uncharacteristically brusque and curt with Anne over the phone. She also stated she spoke with Sheila who sounded very quiet and docile to the point of being unresponsive to basic questions posed by Anne. Hardly the frame of mind to have a heated row with anyone.
Anne put it down to her medication. One can deduce that it was either June or Jeremy that Ralph had the argument with. Now in light of what has been discovered about the possibility of Sheila taking over Jeremy's cottage, I would seriously doubt that the heated discussion that probably took place was between June and Ralph. It was more likely to have been between Ralph and Jeremy. This is further born out by Jeremy later stating to Julie Mugford on the phone that he was feeling "pissed off" and was in a rather fed-up state of mind. Considering we only have Jeremy's version of what took place at WHF as the rest of those who were present are dead, and Bamber has been proven to be a very cunning liar. I know which version of events I choose to believe. Well done Dave!

I am very intrested in Dave's post also.  He cannot give us more info without breaking confidence.  So we are stuck for now, regarding exploration of this avenue.

In the meantime, if we are going to explore the theme of Jeremy being a 'proven cunning liar' maybe the following should be considered...

What exactly does Jeremy state to police regarding the alleged conversation between June, Nevill and Sheila about the twins?

In 1985, who knew that mothers could be triggered to commit murder, infanticide and suicide, if questions arose regarding temporary custody of or assitance for their children? 

What is Jeremy's reaction to to the police after being informed of the deaths inside whf?

Good point, Rocky +1

[smiffy]

Nice answer Dave. We need to prove we aren't just insulting morons or we are gonners on here .... that answer helps!

Oops .....  that can be read two ways!!!! I meant Dave and I being the morons not insulting of others and them being the morons!!!!
Phew

I totally agree with Dave. This argument has been written in statements (I am pretty sure it was either Sheila's doctor or Colin Caffell's) If anyone cares to check. The fact that Ralph and June were seriously concerned for Sheila welfare coupled with the fact that June was keen to have Sheila close by makes perfect sense. There was almost certainly an argument that ensued that night - as testified by Anne Eaton who phoned Ralph and stated that she thought she had "interrupted an argument" Ralph was uncharacteristically brusque and curt with Anne over the phone. She also stated she spoke with Sheila who sounded very quiet and docile to the point of being unresponsive to basic questions posed by Anne. Hardly the frame of mind to have a heated row with anyone.
Anne put it down to her medication. One can deduce that it was either June or Jeremy that Ralph had the argument with. Now in light of what has been discovered about the possibility of Sheila taking over Jeremy's cottage, I would seriously doubt that the heated discussion that probably took place was between June and Ralph. It was more likely to have been between Ralph and Jeremy. This is further born out by Jeremy later stating to Julie Mugford on the phone that he was feeling "pissed off" and was in a rather fed-up state of mind. Considering we only have Jeremy's version of what took place at WHF as the rest of those who were present are dead, and Bamber has been proven to be a very cunning liar. I know which version of events I choose to believe. Well done Dave!

I am very intrested in Dave's post also.  He cannot give us more info without breaking confidence.  So we are stuck for now, regarding exploration of this avenue.

In the meantime, if we are going to explore the theme of Jeremy being a 'proven cunning liar' maybe the following should be considered...

What exactly does Jeremy state to police regarding the alleged conversation between June, Nevill and Sheila about the twins?

In 1985, who knew that mothers could be triggered to commit murder, infanticide and suicide, if questions arose regarding temporary custody of or assitance for their children? 

What is Jeremy's reaction to to the police after being informed of the deaths inside whf?

Good point, Rocky +1

note in this post that the original post by starryian is quoted and not the edited version...

originally in his desire to rant starryian got things very wrong and named Anne as the person making the phone call and not Pamela.

it is noted that starryian later must have been told of or  realised his huge error and edited the original post containing his gaffes.

[Alias]

Colin's mum does talk about the issue of the twins being fostered in her statement.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,970.msg29582.html#msg29582

and Pamela said June was concerned about Sheila, when they spoke on the phone 6 Aug. Pamela didn't speak to Nevill during that call.

Yes I was looking fior that one. I couldn't remember if it was Colin Caffell who mentioned it or his mum. But that saves me from having to find it. Thanks saraan. This proves that Jeremy didn't make the story up.

Are you reading the same statement I have just read??? What it actually refers to is the fact that June was fearful that the twins would be taken away by social services because of Sheila's illness. There is absolutely NO reference to June agreeing - in fact quite the opposite. There is NO way June would entertain the idea of fostering the children. This being the case, I very much doubt she would have proposed it to Sheila. Bamber is a shamefaced liar!!

The twins HAD been fostered earlier, as I said above. So your assumption about the Bambers not contemplating that option at all is not correct.

That is simply not true Abs. I do not know where you are getting your information. This 'fostering' that you are alluding to is simply babysitting or lengthened stays with trusted people while June was busy. This is a far cry from the word 'adoption' please do not confuse the two.

No one mentioned adoption. And the first time the twins were fostered had nothing to do with June - it was in London. I am not sure how much time the twins spent with the family that took care of them, but I know it was part time. I think it was during one of Sheila´s "down" periods and Colin needed help with them.

[grahameb]

Fostering a child out to other people is a very traumatic thing to happen to a mother. To her they are to be away from her for perhaps a long time? This could very well have disturbed Sheila very much. But the fact that Colin Caffell's mother mentioned this proves that Jeremy was not making it up as was suggested by certain members of this forum. Who were gleefully patting each other on the back because they thought they had proved Jeremy to be a lier. Now they are arguing that fostering is a far cry from adoption just to save face it seems to me. But the facts are that it has been PROVED that Jeremy was telling the truth after all.

[smiffy]

Fostering a child out to other people is a very traumatic thing to happen to a mother. To her they are to be away from her for perhaps a long time? This could very well have disturbed Sheila very much. But the fact that Colin Caffell's mother mentioned this proves that Jeremy was not making it up as was suggested by certain members of this forum. Who were gleefully patting each other on the back because they thought they had proved Jeremy to be a lier. Now they are arguing that fostering is a far cry from adoption just to save face it seems to me. But the facts are that it has been PROVED that Jeremy was telling the truth after all.

+1 from me

[andrea]

some members of the forum are saying that june wouldnt have seen the twins fostered or adopted.

the reason for fostering was sheilas illness, but...dont forget june had also been hospitalised with the same thing, religious delusions, psychosis. So.....what makes people think june would have been ideal to take care of the twins / if sheila was struggling because of illness, then so would june who also suffered with mental health problems.

[Roch]

Who said anything about Jeremy taking over Sheila's flat? It may well be the case that the flat be sold to pay Sheila's debts (Which by this time were considerable)
You need proof of this scenario. It comes from Bamber's own lips!!!
I believe that Bamber would be furious that his cottage would be given to Sheila. In his original police statement Bamber says "Family discussions had taken place regarding what could be done to help Sheila. We spoke about her taking over my house, thus getting her into Essex"
This seemed fresh in his mind, so fresh that he waxed eloquently about it, but could not remember what he said in a telephone conversation to Julie Mugford only hours later.
I believe strongly that this may have been the final straw for Bamber. He knew that if his crime were to be successful, it had to be while all the family were gathered together in one place......'tonight or never'
He knew and felt the time was right to carry out his despicable plan. He was also a lazy 'ne'er do well' and he knew harvest was right around the corner. Harvest = hard work, sweat, long hours and having to endure being with his hated family. This together with the argument he had with Ralph over the cottage that night ultimately and tragically sealed their fate.

What, so he topped three adults and two children (the only family he had) to get out of gathering in the harvest?

Please don't try to trivialise important points. You know as well as I do that is only a small part of what I said. To do so shows a gross lack of argumentative ability. Now, I am sure you are intelligent enough to respond to the remaining 98% of the other points I made.

Well put.  Can you substantiate your lazy 'ne'er do well claim?  I suspect anybody would remember a conversation over dinner involving the potential loss of their current living arrangements.  They might not remember with the same clarity, the exact details of a phone call in the dead of night.  The family certainly were all in the same place.  I have not read the Colin Caffell book but I think i read recently that he mentions about Jeremy enquiring if the twins would be at whf?

[andrea]

do we mean on the night of the party at colins? jeremy was supposed to have enquired about the twins?

[Roch]

andi / sarann,

I have not read the book so I can't confirm.  But if that is what he is referring to in the book (party) then yes. But I thought I read that on here that JB had been to see him, to enquire? 

[andrea]

jb and muggy had both been invited to the party by colin, it took place the night before colin drove sheila and the twins to whf. but i dont recall it mentioning jeremy asking about the twins, hartley asked me about this a while ago, i had a look at the book but saw no mention of it, unless i missed it, possible i suppose.

[chochokeira]

Who said anything about Jeremy taking over Sheila's flat? It may well be the case that the flat be sold to pay Sheila's debts (Which by this time were considerable)

Sheila's flat wasn't the only option, starryian, (good name!) Nevill had loads of money. Admittedly much of this was invested and he was temporarily over committed because he had financed (for £100,000, I've read in well researched Wilkes' book) the renovation of a huge, 5 storey house in London that he'd inherited from his mother. But that house was on the cusp of being sold, thereby providing Nevill with a handsome sum.

You need proof of this scenario. It comes from Bamber's own lips!!!
I believe that Bamber would be furious that his cottage would be given to Sheila. In his original police statement Bamber says "Family discussions had taken place regarding what could be done to help Sheila. We spoke about her taking over my house, thus getting her into Essex"

This seemed fresh in his mind, so fresh that he waxed eloquently about it, but could not remember what he said in a telephone conversation to Julie Mugford only hours later. I believe strongly that this may have been the final straw for Bamber. He knew that if his crime were to be successful, it had to be while all the family were gathered together in one place......'tonight or never

Good points. +1 But Vortex has a point too. The arguments of the anti-JB's are riddled with contradictions.

On the one hand, anti-JBs claim that Jeremy was lazy, hated farming, disliked Goldhanger and wanted to live in London

On the other Hand, anti-JBs argue that Jeremy wanted to remain in his cottage in Goldhanger, so remaining in farming. But anti-JBs can't have it all ways. Either he liked his cottage and farming or he didn't. Either he wanted to move to London, or he didn't. Which is it?

He knew and felt the time was right to carry out his despicable plan. He was also a lazy 'ne'er do well' and he knew harvest was right around the corner. Harvest = hard work, sweat, long hours and having to endure being with his hated family. This together with the argument he had with Ralph over the cottage that night ultimately and tragically sealed their fate.

Lazy beggars don't work 14 hour days as Jeremy was doing - on the harvest. Remember him going to check if the Combine Harvester was still running?

If Jeremy was lazy, why did Nevill want him to take over WHF? Why did the surveyor of the WHF trustees say that Jeremy was shaping up well to being a farmer and why did he recommend Jeremy to take over WHF?
Lastly, why did Nevill structure his Will to allow Jeremy to take over WHF if JB was the lazy n'er do well?

Your claims, that Jeremy was lazy, disliked farming and your implicit suggestion that Nevill could not afford to buy Jeremy a flat, are all contradicted by the facts, starryian. Interesting post though, and well written. Thank you for that

[chochokeira]

Who said anything about Jeremy taking over Sheila's flat? It may well be the case that the flat be sold to pay Sheila's debts (Which by this time were considerable)
You need proof of this scenario. It comes from Bamber's own lips!!!
I believe that Bamber would be furious that his cottage would be given to Sheila. In his original police statement Bamber says "Family discussions had taken place regarding what could be done to help Sheila. We spoke about her taking over my house, thus getting her into Essex"
This seemed fresh in his mind, so fresh that he waxed eloquently about it, but could not remember what he said in a telephone conversation to Julie Mugford only hours later.
I believe strongly that this may have been the final straw for Bamber. He knew that if his crime were to be successful, it had to be while all the family were gathered together in one place......'tonight or never'
He knew and felt the time was right to carry out his despicable plan. He was also a lazy 'ne'er do well' and he knew harvest was right around the corner. Harvest = hard work, sweat, long hours and having to endure being with his hated family. This together with the argument he had with Ralph over the cottage that night ultimately and tragically sealed their fate.

It's great too to read a well written post here by an anti-JB that is respectful, that doesn't fall back on personal abuse in order to conceal the poster's lack of arguments and which has the confidence to join us in genuine debate.

Welcome to the forum, starryian.

[andrea]

where is the pic of the blue leggings hanging over the bannister, anyone know?

[clifford]

It is becoming clear that things were not as they appeared on the evening prior to the murders.

Jeremy was apparently asked to give up his home at Goldhanger in order that Sheila and the twins be closer to Nevill and June.

Jeremy's story that Nevill and June had suggested that the twins be adopted is hogwash, just another lie by a murderer intent upon covering his tracks. We only have Jeremy's say so that such a conversation ever took place as the others are all conveniently DEAD.

The farm secretary gave evidence that Nevill was angry that evening when she called and this bears out the argument with Jeremy over his cottage. Jeremy certainly didn't want to give up his love nest but his parents were not amused at the way he had previously entertaining a married woman there.  They decided that Sheila needed the cottage and with her close to hand they could keep an eye on her and the twins.

This certainly did not go down too well with Jeremy, no wonder he told Mugford that he was pissed off and that tonight's the night!

Dave If Pb questions you then you really are in trouble.
Why do you people come on here with such rubbish that even the anti's question you.
Listen I know what you are saying is garbage, because June asked me to take care of the twins on Mondays Wednesdays, and Fridays. Sheila agreed because I was such a nice person.
I used to look after her stash for her.
Now is that tosh or not.

[chochokeira]

Who said anything about Jeremy taking over Sheila's flat? It may well be the case that the flat be sold to pay Sheila's debts (Which by this time were considerable)
You need proof of this scenario. It comes from Bamber's own lips!!!
I believe that Bamber would be furious that his cottage would be given to Sheila. In his original police statement Bamber says "Family discussions had taken place regarding what could be done to help Sheila. We spoke about her taking over my house, thus getting her into Essex"
This seemed fresh in his mind, so fresh that he waxed eloquently about it, but could not remember what he said in a telephone conversation to Julie Mugford only hours later.
I believe strongly that this may have been the final straw for Bamber. He knew that if his crime were to be successful, it had to be while all the family were gathered together in one place......'tonight or never'
He knew and felt the time was right to carry out his despicable plan. He was also a lazy 'ne'er do well' and he knew harvest was right around the corner. Harvest = hard work, sweat, long hours and having to endure being with his hated family. This together with the argument he had with Ralph over the cottage that night ultimately and tragically sealed their fate.

What, so he topped three adults and two children (the only family he had) to get out of gathering in the harvest?

Please don't try to trivialise important points. You know as well as I do that is only a small part of what I said. To do so shows a gross lack of argumentative ability. Now, I am sure you are intelligent enough to respond to the remaining 98% of the other points I made.

Well put.  Can you substantiate your lazy 'ne'er do well claim?  I suspect anybody would remember a conversation over dinner involving the potential loss of their current living arrangements.  They might not remember with the same clarity, the exact details of a phone call in the dead of night.  The family certainly were all in the same place.  I have not read the Colin Caffell book but I think i read recently that he mentions about Jeremy enquiring if the twins would be at whf?

Good points Rocky. +1 Jeremy works a gruelling 14 hour day, then has just a few hours' sleep before he's woken up by the sound of the 'phone. I would be very likely to forget the exact contents of a 'phone call under such circumstances.