Author Topic: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator  (Read 6866 times)

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Offline killingeve

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2023, 09:02:PM »
Are you saying Lincoln carried out experiments on Sheila's blood to confirm it matched her known blood groups? Where did they get a sample of Sheila's blood, to confirm it was Sheila's blood.

The alleged hair is utterly irrelevant. They probably had to get rid of it because it was Bobby's or something like that (if it ever existed in the first place).

I'm not aware that paint can cause scratches on metal.

I thought you might have been familiar with this important aspect of the case.

Blood samples were taken from the victims during pm's and passed to EP who in turn forwarded to FSS for analysis. 

I think its fairly obvious the silencer (metal) scratched the Aga surround (painted wood) causing paint particles to attach to the silencer. 

Offline Roch

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2023, 09:45:PM »
Blood samples were taken from the victims during pm's and passed to EP who in turn forwarded to FSS for analysis. 

I think its fairly obvious the silencer (metal) scratched the Aga surround (painted wood) causing paint particles to attach to the silencer.

Thanks for confirming re the blood samples.

I don't believe you're being serious re the scratches, so won't comment further on that.

Offline Roch

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2023, 02:32:AM »
And how would RB know his blood groups matched those contained within the flake?

Nobody can answer how he would know, or whether he did or didn't know. That would be for a jury to ponder and a defence barister to ponder, if it was relevant to bother do so. Fact of the matter is it was a match and he was a key prosecution witness and patriarch of the inheritors, whom the jury were already suspicious of.  We both know what would have happened if they had been told the truth. Bamber was already set to walk free anyway.

Lying to the jury on scientific evidence doesn't make the conviction sound.  It's shithouse behaviour from the prosecution barister, that blemishes the scientist's trustworthiness.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 02:38:AM by Roch »

Offline Zoso

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2023, 02:45:AM »
Thanks for confirming re the blood samples.

I don't believe you're being serious re the scratches, so won't comment further on that.

What was my answer? Chopped liver?  :(

Offline Roch

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2023, 02:49:AM »
What was my answer? Chopped liver?  :(

Ha ha yes thanks to you also 😏

Offline killingeve

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2023, 09:28:AM »
Nobody can answer how he would know, or whether he did or didn't know. That would be for a jury to ponder and a defence barister to ponder, if it was relevant to bother do so. Fact of the matter is it was a match and he was a key prosecution witness and patriarch of the inheritors, whom the jury were already suspicious of.  We both know what would have happened if they had been told the truth. Bamber was already set to walk free anyway.

Lying to the jury on scientific evidence doesn't make the conviction sound.  It's shithouse behaviour from the prosecution barister, that blemishes the scientist's trustworthiness.

Realistically how many of us can identify our enzyme and protein groups?  How would Robert Boutflour know his groups matched Sheila's?

You do understand that Rivlin had before him, pre-trial, all the test results: flake, 5 victims, Bamber and relatives.  The prosecution did not withhold the information.  The judge even made a point of saying to Rivlin, the biologist was going to provide testimony about a number of blood stained exhibits is there anything the court needs to know about the way they were transported or words to this effect.  Rivlin replied no.

How could Rivlin accuse Robert Boutflour of accidentally or deliberately contaminating the silencer when his main line of defence was to argue the flake represented an intimate mix of Nevill and June's blood which together potentially could have generated the same test result as Sheila's?

No idea why you are sounding off about the prosecution barrister and scientist?  Are you now saying the scientist deliberately misled the jury much the same way you have accused Vanezis of doing?

You are beginning to sound like a crank/conspiracy theorist.  Why are all these people going to perjure themselves running the risk of a custodial sentence, ruined reputation and career, loss of livelihood etc just to put a half-witted Essex farmer behind bars?

I'm not sure you understand Rivlin's main line of defence and the blood evidence.  Rivlin told the court Sheila used the silencer to kill her parents and sons before removing it, returning it to the gun cupboard and then going upstairs to shoot herself.  Rivlin argued the flake was generated by back spatter from Nevill and June wherby their blood overlapped and when the scientist cut the flake into 5 for each test he inadvertently took parts of blood from Nevill and parts from June which generated effectively a false reading representing Sheila's results.  Rivlin obviously thought there was more chance of a jury believing this than Robert Boutflour dobbing his blood in.  That said he did put it to David Boutflour that either he or his father may have cut themselves around the silencer. 

If the prosecution has strong evidence the jury are going to find guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Offline Jane

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2023, 10:31:AM »
Nobody can answer how he would know, or whether he did or didn't know. That would be for a jury to ponder and a defence barister to ponder, if it was relevant to bother do so. Fact of the matter is it was a match and he was a key prosecution witness and patriarch of the inheritors, whom the jury were already suspicious of.  We both know what would have happened if they had been told the truth. Bamber was already set to walk free anyway.

Lying to the jury on scientific evidence doesn't make the conviction sound.  It's shithouse behaviour from the prosecution barister, that blemishes the scientist's trustworthiness.


I'm guessing that, unless he'd sent a sample of his blood away for analysis, or, for whatever reason, it had been done previously, he categorically would NOT have known what his blood comprised. Under those circumstances, I'd call it lying to put into the jury's collective mind that he might. I might go as far as to call it "shithouse behaviour".

Offline Adam

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2023, 10:37:AM »
PV says Rigor Mortais was 'well established' in -

Sheila.
Nevill.
June.
Daniel.
Nicholas.

This negates the theories that people were still alive when people arrived at WHF. Or moved by police.

They were always very optimistic theories.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 10:42:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Roch

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2023, 11:12:AM »
PV says Rigor Mortais was 'well established' in -

Sheila.
Nevill.
June.
Daniel.
Nicholas.

This negates the theories that people were still alive when people arrived at WHF. Or moved by police.

They were always very optimistic theories.

We know Sheila was moved because the TFG were up in arms at the briefing when shown images. Bible, head, rifle all moved.  In the end they got gaslighted by Taff, or another senior detective.  Unfortunately among the defence nobody knew about this until many many years later.  It was hidden from the 1986 jury.  Just like RB's blood grouping. Just like JB having initially blamed the TFG for the shootings, just like Sheila having said all people are bad and should be killed. Just like the non-gunshot wounds etc etc etc.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 11:12:AM by Roch »

Offline Roch

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2023, 11:41:AM »

I'm guessing that, unless he'd sent a sample of his blood away for analysis, or, for whatever reason, it had been done previously, he categorically would NOT have known what his blood comprised. Under those circumstances, I'd call it lying to put into the jury's collective mind that he might. I might go as far as to call it "shithouse behaviour".

Why bother with any of this?  Simple fact is, it was withheld from the jury that it was an exact match for RB.  This is the same RB whom the jury ended up asking a question about inheritance.  Fact is the judge would not have been able to misdirect the jury about the blood in the SM. Since we already know JB would have walked without that summing up, withholding the blood results for RB is what effectively convicted JB.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2023, 11:46:AM »
Why bother with any of this?  Simple fact is, it was withheld from the jury that it was an exact match for RB.  This is the same RB whom the jury ended up asking a question about inheritance.  Fact is the judge would not have been able to misdirect the jury about the blood in the SM. Since we already know JB would have walked without that summing up, withholding the blood results for RB is what effectively convicted JB.

I think you're missing the point in a big way.  It appears you're either unable or unwilling to understand the blood evidence and the defence strategy. 

Offline Roch

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2023, 11:50:AM »
I think you're missing the point in a big way.  It appears you're either unable or unwilling to understand the blood evidence and the defence strategy.

I haven't had time to reply to your sermon above.  You'll get your turn soon enough. 😏

Offline Jane

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2023, 11:50:AM »
Why bother with any of this?  Simple fact is, it was withheld from the jury that it was an exact match for RB.  This is the same RB whom the jury ended up asking a question about inheritance.  Fact is the judge would not have been able to misdirect the jury about the blood in the SM. Since we already know JB would have walked without that summing up, withholding the blood results for RB is what effectively convicted JB.


Sorry Roch, but you really are pulling out all the stops -manipulating?- to make this guy guilty. You only objective is to see JB "walk". You don't seem to give a toss about his guilt. You've convinced yourself JB would, but for the summing up, be free. You have no way of knowing such to be true. Thankfully, the Booby isn't here to accuse you of being a mindreader -although, because you're on the same side, he'd probably overlook it.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2023, 12:30:PM »
I haven't had time to reply to your sermon above.  You'll get your turn soon enough. 😏

Bring it on  8) 

If only you paid the same attention to expert testimony, the prosecution case, legal proceedings etc compared with your devotion to Bill and David's theories you would be getting closer to the truth  ;)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 12:32:PM by Cambridgecutie »

Offline Zoso

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Re: Discussion: Robert Boutflours Blood Groupings in Sound Moderator
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2023, 01:04:PM »
Bring it on  8) 

If only you paid the same attention to expert testimony, the prosecution case, legal proceedings etc compared with your devotion to Bill and David's theories you would be getting closer to the truth  ;)


Well, to be fair, it took you long enough - still not sure you actually believe he's guilty or just playing at devil's advocate?