Luke's Address

[snow66!]

Applying some reality over the fallacy in place. Such as:

Two people, same colour, style of heavier outer coat, same hair styles, identified quite naturally as being the same person, short distance and time apart in those quiet suburbs. The 35mins is from the sighting by AB, to before the sighting by F&W, 40mins is more accurate. This is the time for the murder taken place.

Having to clean, using what he was surrounded by, the most natural source going, leaving no trace! The only thing he would have had to clean in reality, is his face, some hair and soles of his boots. Get out of that clothing. I am not saying he did this, I am placing a little more reality over the fallacy in place, which is - That he had to have been bright red, dripping in the stuff, running the full length of that road home, for a long hot shower and change.

As said, re-thinking a little more also. One of the cyclists says he was not wearing that bomber but a German army shirt! Long and baggy. That he also thought he was on the phone. -  It has come to light that some calls have been added that did not happen, no doubt some calls that took place have been omitted? I have always said that the likes of IB is based around safety nets of sourcing. Such as using what ones knows can be sourced, reliance upon that which one believed could not be sourced?

Anyway - Whatever those time scales are between sightings, nothing would be getting carried out at an even pace. We can easily shorten these. The route, if diagonal through the woodland, under cover, to the river and beyond is not longer than the length of road and up through the estate?

So we are still playing around with those 15mins and the larger time period after 6:20pm. Is 15mins enough for him to have initially removed obvious trace from his face etc, changed anything, to emerge back onto Newbattle road from the woodland, for that is where he was next seen? The sequence heading down to the entrance of his estate?

We can't play around with AW's timings, every point of contact was directly to the landline until the last call at 11:03pm then switching to mobile contact. Also witnessed leaving there. As stated, LM claimed he was on/at the path in the 10:59pm call. Communication central around Jodi's mother passing information between both parties. Last prior to meeting, just before the arrival of the police, 11:17pm - 11:20pm.

OK thanks Parky,I will try and work out your scenario from what you have said.

[snow66!]

OK,I have read many of your posts Parky,trying to get a better picture of your guilty Luke scenario.
Unfortunately you never really give a full coherent timeframe that I can see,in fact,if I may say so you are combining the two possible scenarios,and this does not work.
Let me try to explain.You are adamant that Luke was wearing the parka when F/W saw him at 5.45,yet you say Luke had been home and changed into a long green shirt by the time the push bike boys saw him at 5.55.This is not possible.Luke could not get home from the gate into Roans Dyke path and back out to the end of his street in ten minutes,no way.
But lets just look at your scenario up till that point.Andrina Bryson sees Luke at the Easthouses end of the path at 4.55,he kills Jodi and immediately phones her house but aborts the call because the moped  boys can be heard on the path.He goes to the end of the path [using Roans Dyke path or the woods??] ,
he then phones Alan Ovens around 5.38 before standing by the wooden gate wearing the parka around 5.45 as F/W drive past. Why he wants to be seen by F/W I am not sure.
So,we are at 5.45 and Parky claims Luke hasn't been home yet,is that right?
Next you have Luke duck back into the woods,cross the river,giving his hands and face a quick wash and circle through the woods to get onto Newbattle Abbey crescent,right? So you actually have Luke arriving home when he should be sitting changed into the army shirt at the end of the street.
One other thing,wouldn't Luke have gone down to the river and washed before he stood at the gate?That would waste more time of course.
But why would he actually waste precious time at all going near the gate? Why not just make for the river and keep going?
Seems to have been a big part of Lukes plan to stand by the gate and be seen.Why? On the off chance that someone actually noticed him? And if it was of the uttmost importance for him to be seen at this stage,why did he later deny it was him? And worse than that,if he intended to go home and burn the parka soon after,why the hell did he want to make damned sure he was seen in it? Silly boy!

Never mind,so where were we? Oh yes,this scenario does not work,not if F/W saw Luke wearing his parka,it cant.Not unless Luke walked up Newbattle road afterwards and sat on the wall still wearing the parka at 5.55 as the push bike boys went past.He couldn,t have gone back into the woods,got the path to the river,wash,go home and change and walk to the end of the street.

So,we will repeat the two possible scenarios.Or three if you scrap the F/W sighting I suppose If there is a more plausable one please let me know.

Scenario 1. Straight home after the murder,ten minutes in house to wash change and arrange alibi with Corrine/Shane,walk down to the gate by 5.45 to be seen by F/W.Trouble is Luke has left the parka at home by then,hasn't he?? Oh dear!

In that case,the Crown case must indeed be Scenario 2. Home at 6.30. That is, F/W see Luke at 5.45-50 and then he walks up Newbattle road and sits on the wall just as the push bike boys go past,right? He then sits on the wall for half an hour still wearing the parka before going home to burn it.By golly Luke really wanted as many people as possible to see that parka before he destroyed it,didn't he.A farewell look?

Or WAS he wearing a parka while sitting on the wall? Must have been or this scenario falls flat.doesn't it?

No,the best possible guilty scenario is to scrap the F/W sighting alltogether and have Luke go straight home by 5.30 or so to change etc.,At least this gives him around 15-20 minutes at home to sort things out before walking to the end of the street at 5.50-55 in time for the push bike boys to see him.
But I dont suppose you will be too happy with cutting out the Fleming/Walsh sighting Parky?

As for the time it took Luke to walk up the path with Mia later that night,are you saying this took about 20 minutes Parky?
That doesn't seem too long,walking in the dark while searching for someone.He was probably searching all the verges you were talking about.no?

Anyway,no guilty scenario works very well in reality does it?
This takes us back to QCs occams razor theory.To make Luke guilty we have to make up an extremely far fetched illogical scenario,where as, if we take it that Luke is innocent,things fit nicely,he simply had his supper and left the house at 5.40. No getting home in record breaking time,no washing in rivers,no burning heavy parka jackets after making damned sure several witnesses had seen it,and no running straight to the murder scene like a half wit.
No,a guilty Luke just does not fit Parky. I am with Bubo,find Stocky man and you find the culprit.
And I dont mean anyone from the Dalkeith area. A devil blew in that day and drifted away again unseen,leaving a community devastated ever since. This was the work of a madman with a history of similar crimes.A sick serial killer.No one in Dalkeith fits the description.Didn't the FBI report prove this?

[snow66!]

there at least 2 witness 2 jodi walking down the path an or the stocky a simple google search wil confirm this

What was he wearing nugnug?

[snow66!]

Ah,found some info.
White,stocky build,5 feet seven-5 feet 10.Short brown/ginger hair,dark sweatshirt,possibly with hood,and dark trousers.He may also be carrying a backpack on his shoulder.Late teens early 20s.

Following Jodi at five o'clock.

[Parky41]

Ah,found some info.
White,stocky build,5 feet seven-5 feet 10.Short brown/ginger hair,dark sweatshirt,possibly with hood,and dark trousers.He may also be carrying a backpack on his shoulder.Late teens early 20s.

Following Jodi at five o'clock.

Oh dear - It was around a first positive "possible" sighting of the girl. Click bait sensationalist headlines. An appeal for a male AND a girl to go forward. The two people in the article could not positively ID Jodi Jones, the time and date. Very much why the appeal was put out, looking for others to help confirm if was indeed her around that time. They couldn't, if they could have, they would have been used.

No doubt we will start entering into the realms of some mad conspiracy - And the obvious question is not asked, what did these two people say they thought the girl was wearing? The girl with the  pushchair who saw nothing, not around 5pm on the 30th of June she didn't.

[Parky41]

OK,I have read many of your posts Parky,trying to get a better picture of your guilty Luke scenario.
Unfortunately you never really give a full coherent timeframe that I can see,in fact,if I may say so you are combining the two possible scenarios,and this does not work.
Let me try to explain.You are adamant that Luke was wearing the parka when F/W saw him at 5.45,yet you say Luke had been home and changed into a long green shirt by the time the push bike boys saw him at 5.55.This is not possible.Luke could not get home from the gate into Roans Dyke path and back out to the end of his street in ten minutes,no way.
But lets just look at your scenario up till that point.Andrina Bryson sees Luke at the Easthouses end of the path at 4.55,he kills Jodi and immediately phones her house but aborts the call because the moped  boys can be heard on the path.He goes to the end of the path [using Roans Dyke path or the woods??] ,
he then phones Alan Ovens around 5.38 before standing by the wooden gate wearing the parka around 5.45 as F/W drive past. Why he wants to be seen by F/W I am not sure.
So,we are at 5.45 and Parky claims Luke hasn't been home yet,is that right?
Next you have Luke duck back into the woods,cross the river,giving his hands and face a quick wash and circle through the woods to get onto Newbattle Abbey crescent,right? So you actually have Luke arriving home when he should be sitting changed into the army shirt at the end of the street.
One other thing,wouldn't Luke have gone down to the river and washed before he stood at the gate?That would waste more time of course.
But why would he actually waste precious time at all going near the gate? Why not just make for the river and keep going?
Seems to have been a big part of Lukes plan to stand by the gate and be seen.Why? On the off chance that someone actually noticed him? And if it was of the uttmost importance for him to be seen at this stage,why did he later deny it was him? And worse than that,if he intended to go home and burn the parka soon after,why the hell did he want to make damned sure he was seen in it? Silly boy!

Never mind,so where were we? Oh yes,this scenario does not work,not if F/W saw Luke wearing his parka,it cant.Not unless Luke walked up Newbattle road afterwards and sat on the wall still wearing the parka at 5.55 as the push bike boys went past.He couldn,t have gone back into the woods,got the path to the river,wash,go home and change and walk to the end of the street.

So,we will repeat the two possible scenarios.Or three if you scrap the F/W sighting I suppose If there is a more plausable one please let me know.

Scenario 1. Straight home after the murder,ten minutes in house to wash change and arrange alibi with Corrine/Shane,walk down to the gate by 5.45 to be seen by F/W.Trouble is Luke has left the parka at home by then,hasn't he?? Oh dear!

In that case,the Crown case must indeed be Scenario 2. Home at 6.30. That is, F/W see Luke at 4.45-50 and then he walks up Newbattle road and sits on the wall just as the push bike boys go past,right? He then sits on the wall for half an hour still wearing the parka before going home to burn it.By golly Luke really wanted as many people as possible to see that parka before he destroyed it,didn't he.A farewell look?

Or WAS he wearing a parka while sitting on the wall? Must have been or this scenario falls flat.doesn't it?

No,the best possible guilty scenario is to scrap the F/W sighting alltogether and have Luke go straight home by 5.30 or so to change etc.,At least this gives him around 15-20 minutes at home to sort things out before walking to the end of the street at 5.50-55 in time for the push bike boys to see him.
But I dont suppose you will be too happy with cutting out the Fleming/Walsh sighting Parky?

As for the time it took Luke to walk up the path with Mia later that night,are you saying this took about 20 minutes Parky?
That doesn't seem too long,walking in the dark while searching for someone.He was probably searching all the verges you were talking about.no?

Anyway,no guilty scenario works very well in reality does it?
This takes us back to QCs occams razor theory.To make Luke guilty we have to make up an extremely far fetched illogical scenario,where as if we take it that Luke is innocent,things fit nicely,he simply had his supper and left the house at 5.40. No getting home in record breaking time,no washing in rivers,no burning heavy parka jackets after making damned sure several witnesses had seen it,and no running straight to the murder scene like a half wit.
No,a guilty Luke just does not fit Parky. I am with Bubo,find Stocky man and you find the culprit.
And I dont mean anyone from the Dalkeith area. A devil blew in that day and drifted away again unseen,leaving a community devastated ever since. This was the work of a madman with a history of similar crimes.A sick serial killer.No one in Dalkeith fits the description.Didn't the FBI report prove this?

I agree, sick indeed. And alas, they all start somewhere, hidden in plain sight, don't they? And they do not just stop. - I'll leave you to it.

[snow66!]

I agree, sick indeed. And alas, they all start somewhere, hidden in plain sight, don't they? And they do not just stop. - I'll leave you to it.

But they are usually very cunning and sneaky Parky,they dont advertise that they are going to meet their victim do they? Just doesn't make sense when you sit back and think about it,just doesn't fit.

[Bubo bubo]

But they are usually very cunning and sneaky Parky,they dont advertise that they are going to meet their victim do they? Just doesn't make sense when you sit back and think about it,just doesn't fit.

Take no notice of him he does know what he is talking about. He only had a Parka after Jodie's death. The one teacher who saw him in a Parka did not realise it belonged to another student and none of his mates said he had one. The knife was purchased after the murder and a receipt was shown to police. SL makes all these points in her well researched podcasts. He just has it in for Luke for some reason. His timelines do not work as you have shown and the idea that he would commit the murder and then behave in full view in the way that he did is nonsense, as you rightly say.
He is just using bits of evidence much of it highly contestable and most of the family used different timings at trial from their original statements. These changes cannot be challenged at trial because of the rules under Scottish law.  He is  manipulating them to pin the murder on Luke. If anyone is fantasising it is him

[Parky41]

But they are usually very cunning and sneaky Parky,they dont advertise that they are going to meet their victim do they? Just doesn't make sense when you sit back and think about it,just doesn't fit.

Well, see there's the thing. The meeting at the earlier time was out the blue. The girl had been on a curfew, not out before 6pm on school nights. Now whilst there was an exchange of texts, they were not recovered. Now the content of those texts, the infancy of mobile phones, whilst there is no guarantee they could not be recovered, certainly any privacy between the young girl, contents, he could be assured would have been deleted by his girlfriend, out of the prying eyes of her mother?

With opportunism comes planning, should that opportunity to carry whatever out, should arise. So, it was not any pre arranged meeting time perhaps from school, the usual time. It had been brought forward by over an hour. He could very well have used this change as an opportunity to carry this murder out. He himself would know the likelihood of being seen up to the point of the meeting. All that lovely woodland?

Time from 4:40pm to 5:54pm. She was said to have been leaving to meet him directly after the last text message. Instantly that changed, she was held back by her mother a good 5 mins. He called the speaking clock tying in with her running late. That sighting by AB, had him in the lane, egging the girl to go to him. Had the meeting been arranged for just inside that woodland, next to where their initials were carved? Did LM step out into the lane to see where she was? She had arrived and he was beckoning her to him, to get her out of sight perhaps?

To then walk all the way down into that area off the beaten track, and violently attack her! Now I am not saying this is what happened, what I am saying is, everything pointed to LM for multiple reasons. The police could not disregard those sightings. The fact she made contact with only one person, no means to contact anyone else, the only person who could have learnt of her punishment being lifted, then leaving home shortly afterwards to do just that, meet with him.

The stocky man, even if there had been a positive Identification of the girl at that time - C'mon, this possible sighting was almost directly up from her house, some distance from the lane itself. The girl had no phone, no security, nothing distracting her hearing! Banned from using the path alone, and one would certainly be aware of anyone behind them if entering into the area at all, alone. There was no forensic evidence, no signs of any altercation taken place bar within that bottom area of that woodland strip, off the beaten track.

But if we apply why there would be no signs of any struggle, abduction, force, we can apply she walked down into that area with someone she knew, someone she had frequented the woodland with?   

 

[Parky41]

Take no notice of him he does know what he is talking about. He only had a Parka after Jodie's death. The one teacher who saw him in a Parka did not realise it belonged to another student and none of his mates said he had one. The knife was purchased after the murder and a receipt was shown to police. SL makes all these points in her well researched podcasts. He just has it in for Luke for some reason. His timelines do not work as you have shown and the idea that he would commit the murder and then behave in full view in the way that he did is nonsense, as you rightly say.
He is just using bits of evidence much of it highly contestable and most of the family used different timings at trial from their original statements. These changes cannot be challenged at trial because of the rules under Scottish law.  He is  manipulating them to pin the murder on Luke. If anyone is fantasising it is him

"Pin the murder on Luke" - You are good, I won't even ask you to re-think that statement, I can see just how futile that would be. Entertaining but futile just the same.

[Bubo bubo]

Well, see there's the thing. The meeting at the earlier time was out the blue. The girl had been on a curfew, not out before 6pm on school nights. Now whilst there was an exchange of texts, they were not recovered. Now the content of those texts, the infancy of mobile phones, whilst there is no guarantee they could not be recovered, certainly any privacy between the young girl, contents, he could be assured would have been deleted by his girlfriend, out of the prying eyes of her mother?

With opportunism comes planning, should that opportunity to carry whatever out, should arise. So, it was not any pre arranged meeting time perhaps from school, the usual time. It had been brought forward by over an hour. He could very well have used this change as an opportunity to carry this murder out. He himself would know the likelihood of being seen up to the point of the meeting. All that lovely woodland?

Time from 4:40pm to 5:54pm. She was said to have been leaving to meet him directly after the last text message. Instantly that changed, she was held back by her mother a good 5 mins. He called the speaking clock tying in with her running late. That sighting by AB, had him in the lane, egging the girl to go to him. Had the meeting been arranged for just inside that woodland, next to where their initials were carved? Did LM step out into the lane to see where she was? She had arrived and he was beckoning her to him, to get her out of sight perhaps?

To then walk all the way down into that area off the beaten track, and violently attack her! Now I am not saying this is what happened, what I am saying is, everything pointed to LM for multiple reasons. The police could not disregard those sightings. The fact she made contact with only one person, no means to contact anyone else, the only person who could have learnt of her punishment being lifted, then leaving home shortly afterwards to do just that, meet with him.

The stocky man, even if there had been a positive Identification of the girl at that time - C'mon, this possible sighting was almost directly up from her house, some distance from the lane itself. The girl had no phone, no security, nothing distracting her hearing! Banned from using the path alone, and one would certainly be aware of anyone behind them if entering into the area at all, alone. There was no forensic evidence, no signs of any altercation taken place bar within that bottom area of that woodland strip, off the beaten track.

But if we apply why there would be no signs of any struggle, abduction, force, we can apply she walked down into that area with someone she knew, someone she had frequented the woodland with?   

The problem you have is that one of the three major planks that the police relied on was witness identification. Not only are timings of the so called sightings in doubt but so are the descriptions. The Bryson one gets the clothing worn by the female/girl totally wrong and scientific tests conducted on witness identification show that this form of evidence is notoriously unreliable. Just google it and you will see that there are many detailed web sites explaining this.

[snow66!]

The problem you have is that one of the three major planks that the police relied on was witness identification. Not only are timings of the so called sightings in doubt but so are the descriptions. The Bryson one gets the clothing worn by the female/girl totally wrong and scientific tests conducted on witness identification show that this form of evidence is notoriously unreliable. Just google it and you will see that there are many detailed web sites explaining this.

I think the prosecution made a big mistake using the Fleming/Walsh sighting by the gate at 5.45 Bubo.This is about the most awkward time to construct a guilty Luke scenario around.
Is he on his way home or has he already been home? Nrither option works very well as we have discussed.
And what about Carol Heatley,we haven't even included her in the scenarios yet.
Was it Barondale cottages that she saw Luke standing in a driveway,was that her?
Will check her story out and see if she makes any difference to the equation.

[snow66!]

OK,Carol Heatley did indeed see Luke beside Barondale cottages at 6.05.Now as you probably know this is heading back towards the entrance to Roans Dyke path,somewhere between the end of Newbattle Abbey crescent and the entrance as it were.
So,if we put all the times together on the Newbattle end of the path we have_
Fleming/Walsh 5.45-50
Push bike boys 5.55-6.00
Carol Heatley 6.05
Push bike boy on way back 6.20-30

Ok,now bear with me,firstly we will assume that Luke has been home after the murder before ALL of these sightings took place.Therefore what takes place was simply a charade,I mean Luke knew Jodi was already dead,so waiting for her at various places was just an act.An act which he must have thought important,or why bother? Show the world that he is waiting for someone I suppose.

Anyway,as we can see, Luke walks down to the end of the path first where he is seen  by F/W. at 5.45 ,then he turns around soon after,he doesn't stay there long,he then walks all the way back up to the end of his street where he is seen by the bike boys at 5.55-6.00 where he almost immediately turns AGAIN and walks back down to the driveway into Barondale cottages where Carol Heatley sees him at 6.05,he then turns again and returns to the end of his street where he is seen by the solo bike boy on his return at 6.20-30.What a carry on! Anyway he finally gives up his charade and phones David High at 6.32.

Sorry if this seems a bit confusing,but if you just look at the times of each witness you will see that it is indeed a correct statement,provided you accept that Luke has already been home after the murder.
BUT,remember Luke only had 25-30 minutes to get home from the murder scene and back to the gate at the end of Roans Dyke path to be seen by F/W.for this particular scenario.

Could he have achieved this?

Lets just suppose then,that Luke was on his way home after the murder when F/W saw him at 5.45 beside the gate.Now,we have already discussed why Luke would want to be seen.To show to the world that he is waiting for someone ie., Jodi.
NOW,if this is the case,why is there claims of Luke circling round through the trees to get onto Newbattle Abbey crescent? He's obviously desperate for F/W or whoever to see him at the end of the path,so why duck back into the woods and sneak home?
Either he wants to be seen or he doesn't? Which is it? To be seen or not to be seen,that is the question!

Now you could say he didn't want to be seen walking in the direction of his home along Newbattle road?
But he ended up doing this anyway if he went straight home after the murder,he left his mums house and wandered down to the gate at 5.45 before turning around and walking up to the end of the street at 5.55,as demonstrated above,right?

What I mean is,if Luke was on his way home when F/W saw him,why did he cry out to be seen by them and then sneak home through the woods?Besides,we know Luke didn't have time to go home and back to the end of his street in ten minutes to be seen by the bike boys.If Luke was on his way home when Fleming and Walsh saw him then he must have simply walked up Newbattle Road soon after and sat on the wall where the bike boys saw him.

Oh well,I suppose your all sick of reading about the various scenarios,but if the prosecution cant tell us how Luke carried out the murder,how then can we accept that he is guilty?

Has an official guilty scenario ever been published by the Crown?

[David1819]

I think the prosecution made a big mistake using the Fleming/Walsh sighting by the gate at 5.45 Bubo.

Clearly not considering the Jury agreed with the prosecutions case.

[snow66!]

Clearly not considering the Jury agreed with the prosecutions case.

Hi Dave,hope your well.
What do you think? Was Luke on his way home when F/W saw him,or had he already been home and made his way back?
Confusing,isn't it?