Sheila did not die, until after 8.10am, in bedroom...

[Hartley]

No I will not be posting photos at the present time.

[grahameb]

No I will not be posting photos at the present time.

?

[andrea]

would anne and peter allow you to take photos hartley ? if they knew it was the forum especially?

[Hartley]

Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.

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No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...

It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...

The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...

Furthermore...

If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...

To settle this matter once and for all...

Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?

Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...

Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...

I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but theres no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.

It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.

I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.

I don't think so Hartley I think we've read police documents saying that on entry they found one dead female and one dead male?

I think you need to look at that closer Grahame.

[grahameb]

Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.

------------------

No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...

It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...

The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...

Furthermore...

If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...

To settle this matter once and for all...

Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?

Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...

Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...

I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but theres no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.

It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.

I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.

I don't think so Hartley I think we've read police documents saying that on entry they found one dead female and one dead male?

I think you need to look at that closer Grahame.

I thought that is what the firearms team said and it was written down. Could anyone turn up that document? I'm sure that's what I read?

[jon]

No I will not be posting photos at the present time.

Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?

[Hartley]

No I will not be posting photos at the present time.

Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?

No you can see between a third and a half of the door, it leaves a very small corner, not enough space in my opinion for a six foot four man and a chair, but in any event that is not where he was found.

[Roch]

Nowhere in those logs does it state the female as being the initial body.  It states male first.  Female second.  The period in question is almost 40 minutes from the commencement of the raid to the farmhouse being declared secure.  Nobody during that period, nor after it, corrected the error in the logs recorded.  The logs in question don't come to light until Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for 18 years.  And it takes a court case to bring to light these logs.

Now are we to believe that these logs, invisible for 18 years, were guarded to the extent that those in possession were prepared to go to court to prevent disclosure, solely because Collins made a mistake?

Jeremy Bamber cannot be allowed to 'get off' due to a mistake made by Collins?  Isn't that a bit far fetched?

[jon]

No I will not be posting photos at the present time.

Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?

No you can see between a third and a half of the door, it leaves a very small corner, not enough space in my opinion for a six foot four man and a chair, but in any event that is not where he was found.

Did you once think you could see it all though ? How do you know where body was found ?

[andrea]

according to police photos he was found on an upturned chair infront of the aga to one side.

[Hartley]

No I will not be posting photos at the present time.

Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?

No you can see between a third and a half of the door, it leaves a very small corner, not enough space in my opinion for a six foot four man and a chair, but in any event that is not where he was found.

Did you once think you could see it all though ? How do you know where body was found ?

I may have thought that at one time, not sure.

We know where he was found from the police officers who entered the house, in lieu of anything stronger why would we decide he was found elsewhere?

[tonyb]

So what time did the doc. gain access to WHF ? i assume he wouldn't of gone in with the firearms team . he would of had to wait for the "all clear"?... bound to be an hour or so... so the earliest he would of been able to confirm Sheila's death would of been the moment after he'd checked vital signs were missing and no possible chance of resuscitation,or about 8:45 ish.  I see it a bit like the JFK assassination. you see his head blown apart by the bullet(s),you know he is a lost cause but they take him to hospital and attempt to resuscitate a lost cause. when they give up, time of death is then called. there's no mystery in sheila's time of death just a spin on the method of reporting FACT. Unless the doc heard her last breath you can't possibly say she didn't die till then.If he did hear her last breath then they would of attempted resuscitation. now don't get me wrong,I am on the side of "2 bodies in kitchen" but this time of death is a non starter and not the first time its been brought up

[Hartley]

Nowhere in those logs does it state the female as being the initial body.  It states male first.  Female second.  The period in question is almost 40 minutes from the commencement of the raid to the farmhouse being declared secure.  Nobody during that period, nor after it, corrected the error in the logs recorded.  The logs in question don't come to light until Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for 18 years.  And it takes a court case to bring to light these logs.

Now are we to believe that these logs, invisible for 18 years, were guarded to the extent that those in possession were prepared to go to court to prevent disclosure, solely because Collins made a mistake?

Jeremy Bamber cannot be allowed to 'get off' due to a mistake made by Collins?  Isn't that a bit far fetched?

Rochy I explained my take on that before, and whilst you didn't agree you said at the time you saw my point.

[andrea]

someone must have thought she hadnt been dead long, the marks on her neck look like finger prints as id someone as felt for a pulse, why would they check for a pulse ? they must have known/suspected she was recently dead ( as in minutes) or they wouldnt bother feeling for a pulse.

did that make sense? 

[Roch]

Nowhere in those logs does it state the female as being the initial body.  It states male first.  Female second.  The period in question is almost 40 minutes from the commencement of the raid to the farmhouse being declared secure.  Nobody during that period, nor after it, corrected the error in the logs recorded.  The logs in question don't come to light until Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for 18 years.  And it takes a court case to bring to light these logs.

Now are we to believe that these logs, invisible for 18 years, were guarded to the extent that those in possession were prepared to go to court to prevent disclosure, solely because Collins made a mistake?

Jeremy Bamber cannot be allowed to 'get off' due to a mistake made by Collins?  Isn't that a bit far fetched?

Rochy I explained my take on that before, and whilst you didn't agree you said at the time you saw my point.

Yes i know your stance.  I know you don't feel comfortable with the idea that Sheila somehow travelled downstairs to upstairs.  I agree the blood pattern evidence is 'interesting'      We could do with some more experts from different fields on here.  I remember discussing that with Joolz not too long ago.