Author Topic: The V In The Wall  (Read 3413 times)

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Offline Bubo bubo

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The V In The Wall
« on: February 08, 2022, 05:08:PM »
There is a problem/fault with the original thread which is being investigated.

I have created this thread as a stop gap. They can be merged later.

It seems to me that we need more local knowledge and case data to explore this aspect fully. T

he path to the North would also lead to Newbattle but appears longer. Based on the PI’s discussion in the Channel 5 video it seems you can exit the woods from behind the wall but this leads to open fields and pasture. Why start on that path then go across the fields towards the ’v’? is it shorter?

Unless she was attacked within those woods it would require moving her body a considerable distance to get to where she was found. The pathologist said the body could have been moved but nothing about distance. I think he also said that the mutilation may have been after death.

I also feel that if she had stumbled into a drug swap situation she would not be mutilated as found especially the tying up of her arms behind her back, removal of clothing, etc. I can see her being stabbed to ‘shut her up’ but the attack is much too brutal for such a situation IMO.

As far as going through/over the ‘v’ it cannot be that difficult, all the search party went through I believe. Again local knowledge required.

Then there is the blood issue. I think I am right in saying that blood was found on the wall by the ‘v’. It would be useful to know its precise location. We also need to know what form it took. Was it drops, splashes, runs or smears. Case information we do not have is needed. Was it on both sides or just the path side? The fact that it rained does not help but there may be some clues in what we do know

If it is smears there is a strong case for it being transferred. This could have been done by the search party and the dog. Equally smears could be caused by someone moving her body through the ‘v’ to hide it.

If you watch the second channel five programme at 33.41 min you will see it looks easy. As if you can walk through.

https://youtu.be/Cr_gm9YnOP0?t=2021


PERHAPS ROAD RUNNER CAN ANSWER SOME OF THESE POINTS.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 05:13:PM by Bubo bubo »

Offline Davie2

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2022, 05:47:PM »
Here we go.

Local knowledge, right up my street, what you wanna know?

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2022, 06:46:PM »
Here we go.

Local knowledge, right up my street, what you wanna know?

How about these three for a start.

Can you tell us about an alternative route that would lead to JJ being at or near the 'V'?

Do you know how easy it was to traverse the 'v' in 2003. Was it similar to its current state as shown in the video referenced?

Do you know where the blood that was found on the 'v' was located and what form did it take?

Offline Davie2

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2022, 07:44:PM »
How about these three for a start.

Can you tell us about an alternative route that would lead to JJ being at or near the 'V'?

Do you know how easy it was to traverse the 'v' in 2003. Was it similar to its current state as shown in the video referenced?

Do you know where the blood that was found on the 'v' was located and what form did it take?

Yes several routes can get you to the V without going on the Roan path. A break in the wall/clear opening at the crossroads with lady path leading though to Talbot Park(the pasture), aprox 50 yards up from the entrance to the path from the Easthouses end. This is the likely route Luke and Jodi took, then towards the V.

You could also continue north along lady path as it meanders about Talbot Park, towards the abbey/Lord Ancrum wood. Then cross Talbot Park towards the V. Highly unlikely route.

You can also gain access from the Newbattle side, without going on roan path. A dirt road that leads into Talbot Park and to a ruin building, just farther up is the V. I suspect this is the way Luke took to get back to Newbattle road after he murdered Jodi, before he was seen beside the fence at the opposite side of the road.

Very little change from the V today as it was then, If any, i would say it is more worn down these days, but there are pictures on google shown the V in the few years after the crime. 6 foot + wall, I find it hard to believe dragging a limp body, even one as small as Jodi over that gap in the wall, to be an easy task, without ripping clothes, leaving scratches on the body, scuff marks on shoes, trail marks. It would be a even harder task trying to get a struggling/screaming/scratching teenage girl over the wall. But there is absolutely no signs of any struggle at the V, nor the roan side or the Talbot side.

I need a factual source for the blood on the wall at the V. 

Offline Zoso

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2022, 07:47:PM »
What caused the V in the wall?

My guess would be tree damage from a storm. The tree or one of its branches started things IMO. Later kids climbing over or walkers hopping over for a pee (or a wank) etc. Slowly over time it became more pronounced as erosion from these and the weather took its toll.

It seems convenient that this small gap, compared with the length and height of the wall, was near to where Jodie was found.  The gap isn't going to show on even the most detailed map.  I think I'm beginning to see why the police and others believe the perp to be familiar with the area.  Its not impossible but highly unlikely some random person unfamiliar with the area was hanging around the V and pounced on Jodie.  The police said there was no evidence she was forced off the path to the other side of the wall but given the way they handled the soc what would they expect to find?  Afaik no footprints were taken and if they didn't cover Jodie's body, highly unlikely they covered the V and foilage to check for fibres which might have shed if a scuffle ensued around the V. 

It was established at trial that John Ferris was a drug dealer and that his moped was seen in the vicinity around the time Jodie was murdered.  His behaviour post murder was very suspicious: he didn't come forward for 5 days until the police appeal; cut his own hair; changed his plans for the evening of 30th June.  It was put to him at trial that his personality had changed.  He has since moved to Ayrshire and no longer welcomed by Jodie's family. 

Assuming he only had previous for dealing cannabis it seems unlikely he would murder his cousin in such a violent way?  But did he use this V in the wall as a location for dealing or even hiding cannabis and/or other drugs?  If so did he complete a deal just prior to Jodie's death in the location, either buying or selling, but was reluctant to supply police with the identify of the buyers/sellers for fear of reprisal? 

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/DID+YOU+MURDER+JODI%3F+QC%27s+challenge+to+her+cousin+at+High+Court.-a0125208334

I share this view somewhat. The break with the family could have been down to the fact that he was supplying JJ with cannabis directly or through Luke. They may have felt that this contributed in some way to her murder by mixing with 'Bad' people..
I think he panicked and as you surmise he was worried about repercussions from the big fish in the dealing family tree, who would be concerned that their network could be discovered or disrupted.

The 'V' could have been a drop site such as those  used by cold war spies.

If this is the 'V' in the wall its difficult to see how Jodie ended up the other side if not of her own free will?  I had it in my mind that it allowed easy access but that doesn't appear to be the case.  Was she definitely on the footpath?  Could she have taken a different route and been on her way to Newbattle, or wherever, on the other side?
You are forgetting that the perp may have known the area well. They could have visited friends and family who lived in the general area or even Edinburgh itself. It could have been a holiday spot visited on a regular basis over a number of years/months. They could have lived in the area for a period before moving on.

It may have been earmarked as a potential site. 'Don't shit on your own doorstep' comes to mind.

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2022, 08:10:PM »
Yes several routes can get you to the V without going on the Roan path. A break in the wall/clear opening at the crossroads with lady path leading though to Talbot Park(the pasture), aprox 50 yards up from the entrance to the path from the Easthouses end. This is the likely route Luke and Jodi took, then towards the V.

You could also continue north along lady path as it meanders about Talbot Park, towards the abbey/Lord Ancrum wood. Then cross Talbot Park towards the V. Highly unlikely route.

You can also gain access from the Newbattle side, without going on roan path. A dirt road that leads into Talbot Park and to a ruin building, just farther up is the V. I suspect this is the way Luke took to get back to Newbattle road after he murdered Jodi, before he was seen beside the fence at the opposite side of the road.

Very little change from the V today as it was then, If any, i would say it is more worn down these days, but there are pictures on google shown the V in the few years after the crime. 6 foot + wall, I find it hard to believe dragging a limp body, even one as small as Jodi over that gap in the wall, to be an easy task, without ripping clothes, leaving scratches on the body, scuff marks on shoes, trail marks. It would be a even harder task trying to get a struggling/screaming/scratching teenage girl over the wall. But there is absolutely no signs of any struggle at the V, nor the roan side or the Talbot side.

I need a factual source for the blood on the wall at the V.

Thanks for that. I have some follow ups but this one is important. Given your selection for LM's route post murder, when did he change his clothes. Given the pathologists view it would be almost impossible to do the crime and not suffer blood contamination on person or clothing?

Offline Davie2

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2022, 10:23:PM »
Thanks for that. I have some follow ups but this one is important. Given your selection for LM's route post murder, when did he change his clothes. Given the pathologists view it would be almost impossible to do the crime and not suffer blood contamination on person or clothing?

Gone off-topic again. He had a 5/10-minute window, before he was back out to sit on the wall at the end of his street. My take, is after he was seen by Walsh at 5:40, although this time has been given as late as 5:50 depending on what agenda we are going on. He jumped over that fence, up a small embankment into the woods, in that wood there is a small burn, say even a trickle "Ochre Burn" this may have been a wash-up point, or he may have gone to the main river South Esk to wash-up, he most certainly would have waded across the Esk (it's not deep or wide) 350/380 yards from fence to exit out into his estate, a farther 200 yards to his front door. The back route that has been denied it even exists. Although, even the stupidest of people can use google maps, OC maps, and see this route right? Maybe i give these stupid people too much credit. Anyho, this 550/580 yards 7/8 minutes to do it, a young fit lad? As we keep getting told. This 5/10-minute window, is more than enough time to get some fresh clothes on, he may have even set them out in his room his garage, living room? to save time before, he left to meet Jodi. Then he is straight out the door to sit on the wall, 150 yards away from his front door to be spotted, to pretend nothing happened.

I'll go off topic too, here is a few questions.

What was Luke doing between 6:15/7:30 before he met the boys in the Abbey? He was not sitting on the wall all that time, he never went to the busy Abbey, which is also an entrance to a small industrial estate. Where did he go?

How long does it take to prep an oven, then cook/burn a frozen steak pie? As well as do the potatoes? Also, how long does fresh broccoli keep? 3/4 days? in the fridge? I'm not really a cook, maybe this is where you can help? And those darn prawns, were they frozen or fresh? Did Luke prepare them too? My goodness, i have so many questions that need answered.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2022, 11:50:AM »
Above in the post by Zoso are the posts from the original thread which for some reason is no longer visible. 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 11:52:AM by ngb1066 »

Offline Bubo bubo

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2022, 12:35:PM »
Above in the post by Zoso are the posts from the original thread which for some reason is no longer visible.
Many thanks to the moderator and Zoso for sorting the technical problem.

Offline Germane

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Re: The 'v' in the wall PART2
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2022, 01:17:PM »
Ah, the infamous V that has come to symbolise this horrible and tragic case (SL even has it on the front cover of her book, IB). Furthermore, to establish LM was lying and was the killer they even had a full scale reconstruction of the wall and the V built in one of the rooms at Edinburgh High Court (do a google image search and see it for yourselves). LM claimed that he walked some 40 ft past this V in the wall with his dog Mia and the dog reacted here and began jumping up at the wall and air sniffing. However, the search trio refuted L’s claims and said L never walked past the V at all, but went directly to it, handed the dog leash to AW, went through the V n the wall l, immediately turned left, and within about 10 seconds found a body, in the pitch black! LM met up with this search party at 2310 and fnds the body about 20 mns later! Doesn’t tha make you suspicious?!!?!! To me, it is an indication of Luke’s ‘guilty knowledge’ (he tried to deny any knowledge of the the existence of the V before that night, and yet he had inscribed/carved he & jodi’s initials on a tree near to the locus). And, yes, I’m aware that they all agreed with LM initially about him walking past the v and the dog reacting like lm said it did in his statement, but after the trauma of finding the body had worn off they remembered what actually happened (i.e., that LM never put a foot past that V, but walked directly to it and went through the V). It was also very telling that LM was able to describe all of Jodi’s clothing that was strewn around, 20 feet away, in the dark, with only a standard torch, right down to that red scrunchie in j’s hair.

As regards the spot where the attack happened and finished behind the wall — the most common theory is that it began behind the wall, near the V. The attacker hit J initially with a blunt object such as a large tree branch and then grabbed J’s hair (some of her hair was pulled out of its roots) and kicked her about the face and head. It has been suggested that at that point of the attack, J tried to run away, towards Easthouses, but was quickly overpowered, strangled, dragged back westwards out of sight into thicker woodland, strangled unconscious, and then her throat slit, stripped naked, partially tied up, and then mutilated in some kind of ritual/calling card. Jodi sustained over 300 injuries during the attack, which proves just how much of a temper LM had (he openly admitted to having a short fuse, inherited from CM and gran Ruby, and we know of his previous behaviour with ex-girlfriends and old school friends, and that teachers had suggested psychological or psychiatric intervention) and this was likely excacerbated with excessive cannabis use. Cyclist Leonard Kelly heard strangling noises as he cycled past RDP at approx 1710/1715 and the noises gave him a fright to the extent he slowed down to listen more closely; when he slowed down, the noises stopped, which proved that the person behind that wall knew LK was there and acted accordingly to suppress any noises so as to not draw further attention to what they were doing behind there. LK also said that he could hear a motorbike in the distance (in the fields north of the rdp woodlands), so this rules out any involvement of Ferris & Dickie. All this talk about the moped being spotted at the V riderless is not accurate; the boys were certainly in or near the area of the V at the time of the murder (there’s no doubt LM would have heard them on the moped as he was murdering Jodi in a rage) but the moped kept cutting out, so the boys had to push the bike often along that path going home and would naturally place the bike on the wall now and again for a rest (the bike was never at the V but quite near to it; the eyewitness who claimed to have seen the bike at the V were several hundred yards away when they made this claim, so it was impossible for them to see exactly where the bike was). Besides, these two lads were alibied by eyewitnesses that evening, DNA tested, and eliminated accordingly. (Another myth is that JF ‘hacked’ his hair off in a desperate attempt to change his apoearance; he made it clear that he did not like his thick hair when it was getting long, so he tried to cut it himself to try and tidy it up but he made a mess of it and had to get it cut the following day by a proper barber). After LM murdered J and inflicted the mutilations post-death between 1715-1735, he proceeded west down that woodland strip behind that wall until he emerged on to the nbattle road for the F&W sighting at 1740 (the timings fit in nicely, so already we have very strong evidence in the times of the sightings alone). He tried to set his alibi in place as he proceeded west down that woodland strip l, by phoning AO at 1738 feigning concern (interestigly, lm tried to call the Jones landline at 1732 but the call never connected ... was he interrupted by someone or something?). LM would have been hoping that no one spotted him that day when he emerged on to the nbattle road from the roan’s dyke woodland strip so he could get over that fence and into the cover of the Eskbank woods to begin clean-up and disposal of clothing (initially cleaning at the small rivers there). F&W noted his strange behaviour standing at that gate: not making eye contact, staring at the ground, looking suspicious and cheesed off, wearing a parka type jacket, looking a bit similar to Liam Gallagher’s style and the hair a similar length and style; likewise the evidence from scottish executive emoloyee Carol Heatlie, who spotted a similar looking youth (but in a bomber jacket) standing at the barondale cottages, also looking suspicious, turning away from the woman, not making eye contact as she slowed down in her car to try and get a look at this young boy who she also said was acting strange; Carol Heatlie said in court that the person in the dock looked ‘similar’ to the person she saw on the nbattle rd that day. It’s important to note that no other youth fitting this description was reported on the nbattle rd that day. Mark Kane was wasn’t on the nbattle rd until just before 2200 hrs that evening, running to get the off-licence for alcohol before it closed; the off-licence’s cctv was analysed and MK was eliminated accordingly. Also, MK was about a foot taller than Luke (6ft 3” tall). Furthermore, years later, mk’s dna as tested and he definitely couldn’t be implicated in the murder.

The amount of circumstantial evidence against LM makes me feel uneasy. Definitely guilty, imo.

ps: apologies for any typos, etc ..... I’m typing from an iphone.

Offline Germane

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2022, 01:43:PM »
As i said above, Carol Heatlie was drawn initialliy to this boy’s strange behaviour, so much so that she slowed down in her car to get a closer look at him and see exactly what he was up to. As she slowed down, he turned away and tried to retreat back out of sight. More evidence as to why suspicion fell upon LM. She also said that the boy she saw that day was ‘very, very similar’ to the boy in the Sky tv interview. Very telling, imo.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Driver+saw+%27youth+like+Mitchell%27+Jury+told+of+sighting.-a0125696841

Offline Davie2

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2022, 01:57:PM »
As i said above, Carol Heatlie was drawn initialliy to this boy’s strange behaviour, so much so that she slowed down in her car to get a closer look at him and see exactly what he was up to. As she slowed down, he turned away and tried to retreat back out of sight. More evidence as to why suspicion fell upon LM. She also said that the boy she saw that day was ‘very, very similar’ to the boy in the Sky tv interview. Very telling, imo.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Driver+saw+%27youth+like+Mitchell%27+Jury+told+of+sighting.-a0125696841

OMG, I forgot about Heatlie. Thanks for bringing her up, they really do not like talking about her statements. Just like they don't talk about LK testimony either. It's like pretending these 2 key witnesses don't exist. But hey, Lean was never at the trial in the first place. Even tried to deny AO ever took the stand.

Offline Germane

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2022, 04:11:PM »
OMG, I forgot about Heatlie. Thanks for bringing her up, they really do not like talking about her statements. Just like they don't talk about LK testimony either. It's like pretending these 2 key witnesses don't exist. But hey, Lean was never at the trial in the first place. Even tried to deny AO ever took the stand.

There are a lot of people who have came out of the woodwork since the airing of the C5 documentary
last year, myself included. Bizarrely, a lot of these people have since protested in hordes, on the strength of said documentary alone, that Luke must be innocent. As you say, SL wasn’t even at the original trial, and her book, while being well-researched and written, is based on a lot of misinformation and half-truths, and a lot of whatabouttery and what-ifs. For example, in one chapter, she harps on about phone calls and texts between the Jones family and the Walker family ... all it amounts to is waffle. And, contrary to what a lot of people think, SL does not have access to everything from the case. Far from it. Does anyone know if SL had access to all of the prosecution’s case files and witness statements? I also believe that initially Sandra herself thought Luke to be guilty? I wonder what made her change her mind?

Yes, the evidence against Luke was very compelling and robust. It’s no surprise at all he was convicted. Yes, AO testified at court ... the police had tracked his movements from work that day, and, like Corinne, had used cctv footage to accurately trace his times and journey on the way home from his work. There was nothing sinister in the actions of the Jones family at all throughout the enquiry — I’m not so sure the same can be said about Mitchell family.

Offline Davie2

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2022, 06:14:PM »
There are a lot of people who have came out of the woodwork since the airing of the C5 documentary
last year, myself included. Bizarrely, a lot of these people have since protested in hordes, on the strength of said documentary alone, that Luke must be innocent. As you say, SL wasn’t even at the original trial, and her book, while being well-researched and written, is based on a lot of misinformation and half-truths, and a lot of whatabouttery and what-ifs. For example, in one chapter, she harps on about phone calls and texts between the Jones family and the Walker family ... all it amounts to is waffle. And, contrary to what a lot of people think, SL does not have access to everything from the case. Far from it. Does anyone know if SL had access to all of the prosecution’s case files and witness statements? I also believe that initially Sandra herself thought Luke to be guilty? I wonder what made her change her mind?

Yes, the evidence against Luke was very compelling and robust. It’s no surprise at all he was convicted. Yes, AO testified at court ... the police had tracked his movements from work that day, and, like Corinne, had used cctv footage to accurately trace his times and journey on the way home from his work. There was nothing sinister in the actions of the Jones family at all throughout the enquiry — I’m not so sure the same can be said about Mitchell family.

Here are a few threads elsewhere, that may be of interest to any lurkers that have a few hours to spare. It is worth noting they start to get interesting when SL pops up using her own name and as well as her various other screen handles, look out for now deleted user D2DB as well as AllanM, ConsiderThis. Not really the behaviour of a professional criminologist. There are many other screenhandles across the web, these may have information that people are unaware off. 
https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1783648/killer-luke-mitchell-passes-lie-detector-test
https://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/110882-luke-mitchell/

The C5 documentary was tabloid on screen, designed to portray Mitchell as innocent. It barely touched on the reasons why he was convicted, it focused much more on "who else done it". Although the outcry at the beginning got a little more mainstream interest, I don't think SL quite anticipated the type of characters and their behaviour it would attract after the honeymoon period was over. She could not control them. And they have done more harm than good. It is no surprise she distanced herself AGAIN from the case, but she will be back, she is still lingering, she has got a book to sell after all.

There is no chance that SL has ever seen the prosecution papers, i find it highly unlikely she has ever seen all the defence papers either. Donald Findley wanted nothing to do of her. These defence papers would only have had, the stuff DF decided to use from the investigation to try and get Luke acquitted. DF who was absolutely ruthless, a winner and his history and experience speaks for itself. Personally, i don't like the man, but he was very good at his job. And as hard as he tried, the circumstantial evidence against Luke was too much for him to handle. And that is just the stuff, the prosecution used, they could have put a convener belt of witnesses on the stand.

I don't know if she has ever admitted Luke was guilty, but doubting his innocence, I have seen. Regardless, maybe she thought her work "ego" would get him acquitted, certainly thought she might make a bit of coin from it. I suspect the defence papers that she had, had enough information in them that would prove Luke's guilt or certainly cast doubt on his innocence. But it is no secret, she has cherry-picked these papers to tell her story, even using them as an excuse to spread misinformation, resorting back to the usual excuse "it's all in the papers, but I can't show you, because its against the law" you just have to trust me. It's all been debunked over the years. I have always asked myself why no one else, even though others have looked over the papers, has ever bothered to take this on? Nobody that has way more credibility, no one that has had way more success at MOJ. Like I say above, i suspect these defence papers has way more information in them that prove Lukes guilt, than SL is letting on.

Offline killingeve

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Re: The V In The Wall
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2022, 10:59:AM »
Above in the post by Zoso are the posts from the original thread which for some reason is no longer visible.

I photographed an image of the V in the wall from the DM and tried to upload and that's when I first noticed the problem.  Sorry  :-[  Cheers guys for fixing.