Guns from whf handed in by Bunting who refuses to name persons to police

[clifford]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

[grahameb]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

All the victims were apparently shot at close range? Wouldn't such a powerful weapon have shot straight through them at that range?

[clifford]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

All the victims were apparently shot at close range? Wouldn't such a powerful weapon have shot straight through them at that range?

Not necessarily Grahame,. It would depend on the amount of charge.

[grahameb]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

All the victims were apparently shot at close range? Wouldn't such a powerful weapon have shot straight through them at that range?

Not necessarily Grahame,. It would depend on the amount of charge.

I thought the ammunition that was found were bullets and not shot?

[ngb1066]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

Cliff  - there are examples of a composite rifle/shotgun, with different permutations and combinations of calibre for the barrels.  These are unusual weapons and with some exceptions are normally quite old and are collectors' items rather than the type of weapon which would be used by a farmer.  It is perfectly possible that a gun dealer would have an example of this type of weapon as his licence would cover it.  However, anyone else would require both a firearm certificate and a shotgun certificate to hold the weapon and I suspect that unless the owner was a bona fide collector of unusual weapons it would be dificult to get the necessary firearm certificate coverage.

Some time ago Mike did post details of the two unusual weapons handed in.  I cannot locate the post now but from memory one was some form of single barreled shotgun and the other was a combination of a .22 rifle with I believe a 20 bore shotgun (which is smaller than a 12 bore but bigger than a .410). From the description I recall that there was an unusual arrangement for a single hammer to be adjustable to cover either barrel.  My guess is that this weapon will have been capable of firing only a single shot from each barrel before requiring reloading.  I must emphasise that the above is based only upon my memory of what Mike posted a while back and I may well be wrong.

As far as a shotgun cartridge is concerned it is correct that anything can be loaded from a large number of very small lead pellets or a smaller number of larger pellets or even a single large "slug".  Such a "slug" would require additional specific approval under the owner's firearm certificate to be legal, and approval would have been almost impossible to obtain.

These two weapons handed in by Bunting were clearly illegally held weapons.  What their connection is, if any, to the events at WHF remains a mystery.  I have to say I have not been able to think of any plausible theories but the whole business does sound very suspicious.

[clifford]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

All the victims were apparently shot at close range? Wouldn't such a powerful weapon have shot straight through them at that range?

Not necessarily Grahame,. It would depend on the amount of charge.

I thought the ammunition that was found were bullets and not shot?

Some was fragmented [shot] some were whole.Hence the 4 10 .22 combination.

[clifford]

Sorry nbg posted before reading your post.
As for the legallity of these weapons,am sure that people hold such weapon types albeit illegally

[ngb1066]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

All the victims were apparently shot at close range? Wouldn't such a powerful weapon have shot straight through them at that range?

Not necessarily Grahame,. It would depend on the amount of charge.

I thought the ammunition that was found were bullets and not shot?

Some was fragmented [shot] some were whole.Hence the 4 10 .22 combination.

If the "unusual weapon"  was a  .22/.410 rifle/shotgun combination (as I haved posted above you may be right on this but I thought the shotgun barrel was 20 bore rather than .410) and the .410 shotgun element was loaded with a single slug it would have made a massive injury to the victim, even with a light load.  The slug, even if fragmented, could not be mistaken for a .22 bullet. 

I emphasise that I am not challenging your suggestions on this  - the whole thing is a mystery which needs to be explained.  However my personal view is that the wounds inflicted at WHF were probably all inflicted by .22 rifle rounds.

 

[clifford]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

All the victims were apparently shot at close range? Wouldn't such a powerful weapon have shot straight through them at that range?

Not necessarily Grahame,. It would depend on the amount of charge.

I thought the ammunition that was found were bullets and not shot?

Some was fragmented [shot] some were whole.Hence the 4 10 .22 combination.

If the "unusual weapon"  was a  .22/.410 rifle/shotgun combination (as I haved posted above you may be right on this but I thought the shotgun barrel was 20 bore rather than .410) and the .410 shotgun element was loaded with a single slug it would have made a massive injury to the victim, even with a light load.  The slug, even if fragmented, could not be mistaken for a .22 bullet. 

I emphasise that I am not challenging your suggestions on this  - the whole thing is a mystery which needs to be explained.  However my personal view is that the wounds inflicted at WHF were probably all inflicted by .22 rifle rounds.

Thanks ngb.

[ngb1066]

Sorry nbg posted before reading your post.
As for the legallity of these weapons,am sure that people hold such weapon types albeit illegally

I agree.  A lot of old weapons have been handed down within families and never covered by a shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate.  Every now and then there is an amnesty and a number of such weapons are handed in to the police.

[clifford]

Sorry nbg posted before reading your post.
As for the legallity of these weapons,am sure that people hold such weapon types albeit illegally

I agree.  A lot of old weapons have been handed down within families and never covered by a shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate.  Every now and then there is an amnesty and a number of such weapons are handed in to the police.

Ngb, what do you make of the different types/sizes of the wounds on the victims.
If all the shots were close or contact wounds, why such a varying size in entry.
It would not be able to put this down to the bullet tumbling at such close range surely.

[ngb1066]

Sorry nbg posted before reading your post.
As for the legallity of these weapons,am sure that people hold such weapon types albeit illegally

I agree.  A lot of old weapons have been handed down within families and never covered by a shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate.  Every now and then there is an amnesty and a number of such weapons are handed in to the police.

Ngb, what do you make of the different types/sizes of the wounds on the victims.
If all the shots were close or contact wounds, why such a varying size in entry.
It would not be able to put this down to the bullet tumbling at such close range surely.

Cliff - I believe a number of factors may have an impact on the size of an entry wound, including range and the angle of impact, as well as he nature of the skin/muscle/bone at or around the point of impact.  I take on board the point that Mike Tesko has made that the differences in entry wounds on the victims at WHF do vary to a considerable degree - effectively from around 1/4 inch to nearly 1/2 inch.  Mike believes that this indicates that a different heavier calibre weapon may have been used for some of the shots, but I am not sure about this. First of all there is the problem that no other type of bullet is recorded as having been found at WHF.  I accept that we should not rely too much upon the evidence of Essex Police but at the initial stages of the inquiry I am struggling to think of a reason why they would conceal the existence of other bullets if they were found at WHF.  The second reason for my doubts about a different calibre weapon being used is that I am not able to rule out the different sizes of entry wound being caused by the same .22 calibre bullet.  This needs some expert evidence and although I have some knowledge of ballistics this is a specialist area and I am not an expert in it.

[grahameb]

Sorry nbg posted before reading your post.
As for the legallity of these weapons,am sure that people hold such weapon types albeit illegally

I agree.  A lot of old weapons have been handed down within families and never covered by a shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate.  Every now and then there is an amnesty and a number of such weapons are handed in to the police.

Ngb, what do you make of the different types/sizes of the wounds on the victims.
If all the shots were close or contact wounds, why such a varying size in entry.
It would not be able to put this down to the bullet tumbling at such close range surely.

Cliff - I believe a number of factors may have an impact on the size of an entry wound, including range and the angle of impact, as well as he nature of the skin/muscle/bone at or around the point of impact.  I take on board the point that Mike Tesko has made that the differences in entry wounds on the victims at WHF do vary to a considerable degree - effectively from around 1/4 inch to nearly 1/2 inch.  Mike believes that this indicates that a different heavier calibre weapon may have been used for some of the shots, but I am not sure about this. First of all there is the problem that no other type of bullet is recorded as having been found at WHF.  I accept that we should not rely too much upon the evidence of Essex Police but at the initial stages of the inquiry I am struggling to think of a reason why they would conceal the existence of other bullets if they were found at WHF.  The second reason for my doubts about a different calibre weapon being used is that I am not able to rule out the different sizes of entry wound being caused by the same .22 calibre bullet.  This needs some expert evidence and although I have some knowledge of ballistics this is a specialist area and I am not an expert in it.

Was it recorded that the police fired any shots upon entry to the property? I was just thinking about the words of Jeremy at the time, "They killed them. Those men with the guns killed tham". Or words to that effect.

[ngb1066]

Sorry nbg posted before reading your post.
As for the legallity of these weapons,am sure that people hold such weapon types albeit illegally

I agree.  A lot of old weapons have been handed down within families and never covered by a shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate.  Every now and then there is an amnesty and a number of such weapons are handed in to the police.

Ngb, what do you make of the different types/sizes of the wounds on the victims.
If all the shots were close or contact wounds, why such a varying size in entry.
It would not be able to put this down to the bullet tumbling at such close range surely.

Cliff - I believe a number of factors may have an impact on the size of an entry wound, including range and the angle of impact, as well as he nature of the skin/muscle/bone at or around the point of impact.  I take on board the point that Mike Tesko has made that the differences in entry wounds on the victims at WHF do vary to a considerable degree - effectively from around 1/4 inch to nearly 1/2 inch.  Mike believes that this indicates that a different heavier calibre weapon may have been used for some of the shots, but I am not sure about this. First of all there is the problem that no other type of bullet is recorded as having been found at WHF.  I accept that we should not rely too much upon the evidence of Essex Police but at the initial stages of the inquiry I am struggling to think of a reason why they would conceal the existence of other bullets if they were found at WHF.  The second reason for my doubts about a different calibre weapon being used is that I am not able to rule out the different sizes of entry wound being caused by the same .22 calibre bullet.  This needs some expert evidence and although I have some knowledge of ballistics this is a specialist area and I am not an expert in it.

Was it recorded that the police fired any shots upon entry to the property? I was just thinking about the words of Jeremy at the time, "They killed them. Those men with the guns killed tham". Or words to that effect.

The police certainly never admitted firing any shots in the house.  That does not of course necessarily mean that they did not fire shots, but if they did there would have to have been a really compelling reason for every single police officer present to conspire to cover up the fact.  There would also have been problems back at HQ when the police weapons and ammunition were booked back in.  Jeremy Bamber has never claimed that he heard any shots fired, although he would not necessarily have done so given his distance from the house.

Although of course I am not certain about the point, I believe that no shot was fired by the police at WHF.



 

[clifford]

Sorry nbg posted before reading your post.
As for the legallity of these weapons,am sure that people hold such weapon types albeit illegally

I agree.  A lot of old weapons have been handed down within families and never covered by a shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate.  Every now and then there is an amnesty and a number of such weapons are handed in to the police.

Ngb, what do you make of the different types/sizes of the wounds on the victims.
If all the shots were close or contact wounds, why such a varying size in entry.
It would not be able to put this down to the bullet tumbling at such close range surely.

Cliff - I believe a number of factors may have an impact on the size of an entry wound, including range and the angle of impact, as well as he nature of the skin/muscle/bone at or around the point of impact.  I take on board the point that Mike Tesko has made that the differences in entry wounds on the victims at WHF do vary to a considerable degree - effectively from around 1/4 inch to nearly 1/2 inch.  Mike believes that this indicates that a different heavier calibre weapon may have been used for some of the shots, but I am not sure about this. First of all there is the problem that no other type of bullet is recorded as having been found at WHF.  I accept that we should not rely too much upon the evidence of Essex Police but at the initial stages of the inquiry I am struggling to think of a reason why they would conceal the existence of other bullets if they were found at WHF.  The second reason for my doubts about a different calibre weapon being used is that I am not able to rule out the different sizes of entry wound being caused by the same .22 calibre bullet.  This needs some expert evidence and although I have some knowledge of ballistics this is a specialist area and I am not an expert in it.

Was it recorded that the police fired any shots upon entry to the property? I was just thinking about the words of Jeremy at the time, "They killed them. Those men with the guns killed tham". Or words to that effect.

The police certainly never admitted firing any shots in the house.  That does not of course necessarily mean that they did not fire shots, but if they did there would have to have been a really compelling reason for every single police officer present to conspire to cover up the fact.  There would also have been problems back at HQ when the police weapons and ammunition were booked back in.  Jeremy Bamber has never claimed that he heard any shots fired, although he would not necessarily have done so given his distance from the house.

Although of course I am not certain about the point, I believe that no shot was fired by the police at WHF.



 

This is just a thought.
I am not sure how many officers were in the raid team, but I suspect not more than five.
What if Sheila was in front of them after bursting in. One officer fires and hits Sheila in the throat.
Assuming they thought she was dead, reported one dead male, one dead female. I will not speculate how Sheila got upstairs.
Now as for logging the weapons, and ammo back at HQ, there was enough 22 ammo laying around,so could have easily picked up one of those.
We now only have five officers to back each other up, not the rest of those outside. Maybe.