Guns from whf handed in by Bunting who refuses to name persons to police

[nugnug]

wouldn't jermy know if they had i mean he was with them.
he hasnt mentioned anything about this.
i mean he may not have seen the shots but he would of heard the police fireing.

[clifford]

wouldn't jermy know if they had i mean he was with them.
he hasnt mentioned anything about this.

He was not with the raid team nugnug. He was well away from the house at that time.

[clifford]

To be clear I am not suggesting that this was a deliberate act by the fire arms team, more likely an accidental discharge.

[ngb1066]

Sorry nbg posted before reading your post.
As for the legallity of these weapons,am sure that people hold such weapon types albeit illegally

I agree.  A lot of old weapons have been handed down within families and never covered by a shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate.  Every now and then there is an amnesty and a number of such weapons are handed in to the police.

Ngb, what do you make of the different types/sizes of the wounds on the victims.
If all the shots were close or contact wounds, why such a varying size in entry.
It would not be able to put this down to the bullet tumbling at such close range surely.

Cliff - I believe a number of factors may have an impact on the size of an entry wound, including range and the angle of impact, as well as he nature of the skin/muscle/bone at or around the point of impact.  I take on board the point that Mike Tesko has made that the differences in entry wounds on the victims at WHF do vary to a considerable degree - effectively from around 1/4 inch to nearly 1/2 inch.  Mike believes that this indicates that a different heavier calibre weapon may have been used for some of the shots, but I am not sure about this. First of all there is the problem that no other type of bullet is recorded as having been found at WHF.  I accept that we should not rely too much upon the evidence of Essex Police but at the initial stages of the inquiry I am struggling to think of a reason why they would conceal the existence of other bullets if they were found at WHF.  The second reason for my doubts about a different calibre weapon being used is that I am not able to rule out the different sizes of entry wound being caused by the same .22 calibre bullet.  This needs some expert evidence and although I have some knowledge of ballistics this is a specialist area and I am not an expert in it.

Was it recorded that the police fired any shots upon entry to the property? I was just thinking about the words of Jeremy at the time, "They killed them. Those men with the guns killed tham". Or words to that effect.

The police certainly never admitted firing any shots in the house.  That does not of course necessarily mean that they did not fire shots, but if they did there would have to have been a really compelling reason for every single police officer present to conspire to cover up the fact.  There would also have been problems back at HQ when the police weapons and ammunition were booked back in.  Jeremy Bamber has never claimed that he heard any shots fired, although he would not necessarily have done so given his distance from the house.

Although of course I am not certain about the point, I believe that no shot was fired by the police at WHF.



 

This is just a thought.
I am not sure how many officers were in the raid team, but I suspect not more than five.
What if Sheila was in front of them after bursting in. One officer fires and hits Sheila in the throat.
Assuming they thought she was dead, reported one dead male, one dead female. I will not speculate how Sheila got upstairs.
Now as for logging the weapons, and ammo back at HQ, there was enough 22 ammo laying around,so could have easily picked up one of those.
We now only have five officers to back each other up, not the rest of those outside. Maybe.

Cliff  I accept what you say is possible but I think it is unlikely for three reasons.

1.  if Sheila was shot by police on entry to the house that was presumably because she was perceived to be a threat.  The raid team were sent in because it was thought that Sheila had gone on a rampage with a weapon and posed a threat.  The easiest course of action for the raid team would therefore have been to admit what happened.  Bear in mind that even if the shooter was concerned that he might have difficulty in justifying his actions (and we should bear in mind that the police are nearly always given the benefit of the doubt in cases like this), the other members of the team had nothing to fear.  Why would they risk the serious consequences of lying to cover up for a mate, when that mate was not likely to be in trouble if he simply stated what happened.

2. It is very unlikely that Sheila would have been shot by a police officer in the throat.  They are trained to use a "stopping" shot, which is typically to the centre of the torso.

3. We do not know what weapons the police were issued with - Mike Tesko may have a statement relating to this and he believes  a .22 weapon was included.  I accept that firearms used by the police in the 1980s varied a lot from force to force and there was not the standardisation that we see with Firearms Units today.  However I would have expected the weapons to have been full bore hand guns, possibly also a centrefire rifle.  .38 calibre revolvers were commonly issued at that time.  I have not come across the use of a .22 rimfire weapon by police, and this would be a poor weapon of choice for the firearms team.   A full bore weapon would have done much more damage to Sheila than is evident from the photographs and the pathologist would have known what weapon had been used.


   

[ngb1066]

To be clear I am not suggesting that this was a deliberate act by the fire arms team, more likely an accidental discharge.

Cliff - that is of course possible.  For the reasons set out in my earlier posts I think this theory only works if one of the firearms team was issued with a .22 rimfire weapon and I do think that is unlikely.  The angle of the shot would also take some explaining - it would have to have been a shot upwards, for example if Sheila was at the top of one of the staircases with the shooter at the bottom.  However even that scenario has the problem that the pathologist considered both shots to Sheila to have been at very close range.

 

[mike tesko]

Why swap over the original fragmented bullet (PV/20) and substitute it with a whole control bullet, which enabled the ballistics expert to link and associate it to the Bamber rifle? In addition, to what does the 'officers report' which makes mention of a 'shooting incident in the kitchen', refer to? And at least one member of the raid team was issued with a .22 weapon, and .22 ammunition - furthermore, Essex police will neither confirm or deny, that all the ammunition which was issued to members of the firearms team who participated in the operation, returned it all, unused, at the conclusion of the operation - collectively, all these different features could be meaningfull and be the key to help us to understand who shot who, when and why?

[grahameb]

I think I remember reading that both shots to Sheila were contact shots? A contact shot with a .38 would surely had gone straight through her head at contact range?

[chochokeira]

If Barrel made mark, it could not possibly have been just the one barrel of one gun, because of the dimensions, 5/8" and 3/8" -  in my opinion, it is much more likely to have been a double barreled weapon, which had one barrel larger, than the other, one sitting atop the other, and the weapon handed to BUNTING fits this bill exactly...

Bunting is hardly going to keep his mouth shut for Jeremy Bamber or some 'hitman'.  So.. who exactly is he keeping quiet for?

Good question. Rocky

[chochokeira]

If Barrel made mark, it could not possibly have been just the one barrel of one gun, because of the dimensions, 5/8" and 3/8" -  in my opinion, it is much more likely to have been a double barreled weapon, which had one barrel larger, than the other, one sitting atop the other, and the weapon handed to BUNTING fits this bill exactly...

Bunting is hardly going to keep his mouth shut for Jeremy Bamber or some 'hitman'.  So.. who exactly is he keeping quiet for?

---------------

Some relative or other?

Interesting answer, Mike....but who?

[chochokeira]

If Barrel made mark, it could not possibly have been just the one barrel of one gun, because of the dimensions, 5/8" and 3/8" -  in my opinion, it is much more likely to have been a double barreled weapon, which had one barrel larger, than the other, one sitting atop the other, and the weapon handed to BUNTING fits this bill exactly...

Bunting is hardly going to keep his mouth shut for Jeremy Bamber or some 'hitman'.  So.. who exactly is he keeping quiet for?

---------------

Some relative or other?

But how did Bunting and his donated custom weapon come to light in the first place?

...............

Its all in the statement I have got possession of, somewhere, but from what I can gather it all came to light soon after the shootings at whf......

Evenmore interesting answer

[chochokeira]

One of the family was a gun dealer [Can,t remember who] so would have access to all different kinds of guns.
Ngb may be able to back me on the following,[ or not].
There are in existance rifles that are a combination of 4 10,& 22.
Cartridges can be obtained with differing amount of shot, from several hundred pellets down to one ball.
I don't think they are that common, but a dealer would probably see these more often.
Is it possibly that a 4 10, 12 bore could exist. This might explain the varying size of gun shot wounds on the victims, as as these are cartridges it could explain the absence of lead on Sheilas hands.
Just a thought.

Cliff  - there are examples of a composite rifle/shotgun, with different permutations and combinations of calibre for the barrels.  These are unusual weapons and with some exceptions are normally quite old and are collectors' items rather than the type of weapon which would be used by a farmer.  It is perfectly possible that a gun dealer would have an example of this type of weapon as his licence would cover it.  However, anyone else would require both a firearm certificate and a shotgun certificate to hold the weapon and I suspect that unless the owner was a bona fide collector of unusual weapons it would be dificult to get the necessary firearm certificate coverage.

Some time ago Mike did post details of the two unusual weapons handed in.  I cannot locate the post now but from memory one was some form of single barreled shotgun and the other was a combination of a .22 rifle with I believe a 20 bore shotgun (which is smaller than a 12 bore but bigger than a .410). From the description I recall that there was an unusual arrangement for a single hammer to be adjustable to cover either barrel.  My guess is that this weapon will have been capable of firing only a single shot from each barrel before requiring reloading.  I must emphasise that the above is based only upon my memory of what Mike posted a while back and I may well be wrong.

As far as a shotgun cartridge is concerned it is correct that anything can be loaded from a large number of very small lead pellets or a smaller number of larger pellets or even a single large "slug".  Such a "slug" would require additional specific approval under the owner's firearm certificate to be legal, and approval would have been almost impossible to obtain.

These two weapons handed in by Bunting were clearly illegally held weapons.  What their connection is, if any, to the events at WHF remains a mystery.  I have to say I have not been able to think of any plausible theories but the whole business does sound very suspicious.

How old do you think this gun might be, ngb? A relic from the Siege of Colchester - that old? The Buntings appear to have been Colchester people before they moved out to the villages.

[mike tesko]

I think I remember reading that both shots to Sheila were contact shots? A contact shot with a .38 would surely had gone straight through her head at contact range?

----------------

A .38 weapon was not used to shoot Sheila either in the neck, or under the chin...

She was shot twice by a .22 caliber weapon, or weapons...

Non fatal shot was close contact, possibly up to three inches or so away from surface of skin, and the shot under the chin was contact in nature...

[Roch]

I think I remember reading that both shots to Sheila were contact shots? A contact shot with a .38 would surely had gone straight through her head at contact range?

----------------

A .38 weapon was not used to shoot Sheila either in the neck, or under the chin...

She was shot twice by a .22 caliber weapon, or weapons...

Non fatal shot was close contact, possibly up to three inches or so away from surface of skin, and the shot under the chin was contact in nature...

I find that slightly odd.  I cant imagine a person holding a weapon up to three inches away from their neck for a suicide shot.  Would it not feel more 'reassuring' (for want of a better word in these dreadful circumstances) for the person to push the muzzle of the weapon against their skin?  Try imagining it your self.

[mike tesko]

I think I remember reading that both shots to Sheila were contact shots? A contact shot with a .38 would surely had gone straight through her head at contact range?

----------------

A .38 weapon was not used to shoot Sheila either in the neck, or under the chin...

She was shot twice by a .22 caliber weapon, or weapons...

Non fatal shot was close contact, possibly up to three inches or so away from surface of skin, and the shot under the chin was contact in nature...

I find that slightly odd.  I cant imagine a person holding a weapon up to three inches away from their neck for a suicide shot.  Would it not feel more 'reassuring' (for want of a better word in these dreadful circumstances) for the person to push the muzzle of the weapon against their skin?  Try imagining it your self.

--------------

This was one of the points which former DCI "Taff" Jones and other senior officers discussed at the scene whilst Sheila's body was still in situ according to one version of events that have been given - DCI Jones believed that Sheila shot herself under the chin and that the second shot came about when the barrel of the rifle fell away from its original contact position under the chin, and by these means it became excepted that the second shot was inflicted by the process of recoil where the end of the guns barrel, was falling away from its original contact position...

I am not saying that I agree with this scenario, I am only pointing out what conclusions the police claim to have arrived at during the early stages of the investigation into Sheila's death?

[chochokeira]

I think I remember reading that both shots to Sheila were contact shots? A contact shot with a .38 would surely had gone straight through her head at contact range?

----------------

A .38 weapon was not used to shoot Sheila either in the neck, or under the chin...

She was shot twice by a .22 caliber weapon, or weapons...

Non fatal shot was close contact, possibly up to three inches or so away from surface of skin, and the shot under the chin was contact in nature...

I find that slightly odd.  I cant imagine a person holding a weapon up to three inches away from their neck for a suicide shot.  Would it not feel more 'reassuring' (for want of a better word in these dreadful circumstances) for the person to push the muzzle of the weapon against their skin?  Try imagining it your self.

Sheila might have been having a psychotic episode, but she was a still  a female. Could fear have caused Sheila to jerk her head back, otherwise move her head or to move the rifle, say, just before the shot was fired? Might this also explain why the first shot lodged in the neck and failed to kill her?