My Challenge To The Supporters

[Bill Robertson]

As a former police officer do you have access to the operations/training manual?  Surely this will set out under what circumstances firearms are called upon?

Sorry for delay; I’ve been away. There was no operation or training manual back then. It was a matter of judgement and common sense, plus taking advice from Sergeant. In my situation help was always 1.5 hours away, so we very rarely asked for any, we just improvised.

As to why Jeremy didn’t mention the figure in the window, I don’t know. Maybe he did and it wasn’t noted. There is quite a lot that he remains confused about or can’t remember. Perhaps the shock of discovering that his family were dead has caused him to blank out some things. Even mundane details with no bearing on the case, he doesn’t remember.

[killingeve]

Sorry for delay; I’ve been away. There was no operation or training manual back then. It was a matter of judgement and common sense, plus taking advice from Sergeant. In my situation help was always 1.5 hours away, so we very rarely asked for any, we just improvised.

As to why Jeremy didn’t mention the figure in the window, I don’t know. Maybe he did and it wasn’t noted. There is quite a lot that he remains confused about or can’t remember. Perhaps the shock of discovering that his family were dead has caused him to blank out some things. Even mundane details with no bearing on the case, he doesn’t remember.

Hi Bill,  I think you're mistaken about no training/operational manual existing in 1985.  If this was so there would be nothing to work from in terms of the police breaking the law and complaints eg COLP in this case.

You can see here where the 1985 manual is referred to in Parliament.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1985/jul/22/police-training-manual

Bamber gave a very detailed witness statement which he signed upon completion.  I would suggest Bamber didn't refer to such as it was a non-event.

[Bubo bubo]

Hi Bill,  I think you're mistaken about no training/operational manual existing in 1985.  If this was so there would be nothing to work from in terms of the police breaking the law and complaints eg COLP in this case.

You can see here where the 1985 manual is referred to in Parliament.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1985/jul/22/police-training-manual

Bamber gave a very detailed witness statement which he signed upon completion.  I would suggest Bamber didn't refer to such as it was a non-event.

The manual to which you refer in the Hansard quote is in relation to public order issues and demonstrations and their management. Not surprising given the issues arising from the miners strike.

[killingeve]

The manual to which you refer in the Hansard quote is in relation to public order issues and demonstrations and their management. Not surprising given the issues arising from the miners strike.

The article refers to the aspect of policing under question but the manual refers to all areas of policing.  If it didn't how do you think discipline is meted out?

[Bubo bubo]

Without seeing the full contents of the manual it is guessing what else it might contain and the aspects of policing covered. We do not know what was included on firearms incidents for example.

It was, I would suggest, dealing with 'Common' issues rather than things which happened infrequently.

[Bill Robertson]

Hi Bill,  I think you're mistaken about no training/operational manual existing in 1985.  If this was so there would be nothing to work from in terms of the police breaking the law and complaints eg COLP in this case.

You can see here where the 1985 manual is referred to in Parliament.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1985/jul/22/police-training-manual

Bamber gave a very detailed witness statement which he signed upon completion.  I would suggest Bamber didn't refer to such as it was a non-event.

I didn’t say anything about 1985, I don’t know what existed then. I was there in 1970’s. Obviously there was nothing then, which is presumably why one was created.

[guest7363]

I didn’t say anything about 1985, I don’t know what existed then. I was there in 1970’s. Obviously there was nothing then, which is presumably why one was created.

So you can’t really blame your Ex colleagues then Bill if you didn’t know one existed?

[guest29835]

Hi Bill,  I think you're mistaken about no training/operational manual existing in 1985.  If this was so there would be nothing to work from in terms of the police breaking the law and complaints eg COLP in this case.

You can see here where the 1985 manual is referred to in Parliament.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1985/jul/22/police-training-manual

Bamber gave a very detailed witness statement which he signed upon completion.  I would suggest Bamber didn't refer to such as it was a non-event.

See my post here:

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10885.msg503229.html#msg503229

I believe the Manual referred to is irrelevant.  However, it would be useful to find out if there were any policies relevant to the deployment of armed police at that time in these situations.

[guest7363]

The article refers to the aspect of policing under question but the manual refers to all areas of policing.  If it didn't how do you think discipline is meted out?

Wasn’t it covered under PACE The use of firearms by the police in England and Wales is covered by statute (such as the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

[guest29835]

Wasn’t it covered under PACE The use of firearms by the police in England and Wales is covered by statute (such as the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

Good point, but I'm not sure PACE and the PACE Act itself are quite germane in the context of decisions about firearms deployment (as opposed to entry to dwellings and premises), which I suspect will be more a matter of policy. 

It requires further research, but in regard to the decision of response officers not to enter the dwelling without armed support, you may wish to consider section 17(1)(e) of the PACE Act:

17Entry for purpose of arrest etc.
(1)Subject to the following provisions of this section, and without prejudice to any other enactment, a constable may enter and search any premises for the purpose—

...

(e)of saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property.

Whatever else can be said, no-one can argue that a police entry would have been illegal (not that any legal repercussions would have flowed from it even if entry had been illegal, as a breach of PACE was surely condonable in those circumstances).

I think section 17(1)(e) does further somewhat undermine guilters' arguments about Jeremy's conduct that morning.  You say that Jeremy was trying to delay them.  Putting aside the illogicality of that argument, it seems to me that if Jeremy was having an influence on them at all, it was to persuade them of the potential danger of the situation.  Surely you must acknowledge that Jeremy could not have known what they would do next?  Firearms officers could have arrived and started raiding the farmhouse within minutes.

[killingeve]

Wasn’t it covered under PACE The use of firearms by the police in England and Wales is covered by statute (such as the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/contents

There will be some sort of manual or such like pre and post PACT otherwise what would the hierarchy and judicial system use as a yard stick to determine when lines were overstepped etc?

[guest29835]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/contents

There will be some sort of manual or such like pre and post PACT otherwise what would the hierarchy and judicial system use as a yard stick to determine when lines were overstepped etc?

I agree that it is likely there was policy.  Whether it just took the form of a policy document or some sort of extensive operational manual, research is required to discover.

Currently, as at 2021, Essex Police Use of Firearms Policy published on their website.  It's a laconic document.  It may sit in front of a manual, though, and that could be a 'protected document'.

[guest7363]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/contents

There will be some sort of manual or such like pre and post PACT otherwise what would the hierarchy and judicial system use as a yard stick to determine when lines were overstepped etc?

I think it’s rubbish to even suggest otherwise.

[guest7363]

Sorry for delay; I’ve been away. There was no operation or training manual back then. It was a matter of judgement and common sense, plus taking advice from Sergeant. In my situation help was always 1.5 hours away, so we very rarely asked for any, we just improvised.

As to why Jeremy didn’t mention the figure in the window, I don’t know. Maybe he did and it wasn’t noted. There is quite a lot that he remains confused about or can’t remember. Perhaps the shock of discovering that his family were dead has caused him to blank out some things. Even mundane details with no bearing on the case, he doesn’t remember.

Well if he’s the same sergeant that told you to go and have a look in the bag that could have contained a Bomb, all because he couldn’t be bothered to bring the Bomb Squad in, neither he or you had any Common sense I’m afraid.  If someone tells you to  Jump  off a Cliff Springs to mind!

[Bill Robertson]

Well if he’s the same sergeant that told you to go and have a look in the bag that could have contained a Bomb, all because he couldn’t be bothered to bring the Bomb Squad in, neither he or you had any Common sense I’m afraid.  If someone tells you to  Jump  off a Cliff Springs to mind!

Give it a rest, what is the point?