My Challenge To The Supporters

[Rob_]

Just maybe they did, Rob. To simply dismiss it makes for a very sweeping statement. They'd only have needed to work once, wouldn't they?

Sorry Jane I am not sure what you are saying?

[Rob_]

She had 20 odd scratches on her by all accounts have you forgot Rob!

Having your wrists and ankles bound and struggling hard to get free would be easily detected?

[Jane]

This will stop someone talking but not making a lot of noise, it would be hard to force Sheila to put one on and again the straps would leave marks around the face.

Have you any idea how thick the walls are in Georgian houses, Rob? Besides, who was going to hear her anyway. It's of no importance how difficult it was. In the end, all that matters is that he was able to accomplish it.

[Jane]

Having your wrists and ankles bound and struggling hard to get free would be easily detected?

But it wasn't. There are claims here, on an almost daily basis about missed injuries. All have been contributed to altercations with June and/or Nevill.

[guest7363]

Having your wrists and ankles bound and struggling hard to get free would be easily detected?

I think your winning on this argument Rob, I don’t know how or if marks would be left if tape was used?

[guest29835]

Back to the thread title and post #1.

My scenario -

*  Once Bamber enters the farmhouse, via one of the windows he admitted he could gain entry through regardless of whether it was secured or not, he removes the ivory kitchen handset from the cradle thus disabling all other phones within the property.

Which window specifically?

*  He moves to Sheila's bedroom where he gags, blindfolds, and bounds her wrists and ankles.  Then carries her to his former bedroom and locks the door.

I don't believe this can be correct.  The reason can simply be explained by looking at any picture of Sheila lying dead on the bedroom floor.  See where the blood is around her mouth. 

Also, Sheila had no marks on her that would correspond to this, if we accept what the police and pathologist say about her injuries. 

She also does not look like somebody who was in distress at the point of death.  I realise this point is a bit more subjective and debatable, but she looks to me like somebody who passed on in a calm state, having composed herself.

*  He deliberately makes noises until he knows the inevitable will happen ie Mrs Bamber wakes Mr Bamber to investigate.  It is often talked about that Mrs Bamber is a light sleeper, thinks she hears noises downstairs and sends Mr Bamber to investigate.

To me, this defies common sense.  Put yourself in the shoes of the killer.  The whole point of this is that he (if it's Jeremy) is catching them all in bed.  Why would he want to wake them up or alert them to his presence?  And what is the silencer for, if that is his aim?  I appreciate the point you make (later in this post) that Jeremy needs it to look like it was a frenzied attack, but you have also explained how Jeremy could construct a frenzied attack on the twins while they are still in bed.  Why not the case with his parents as well?

* *  Bamber hides out in the twins room until he hears Mr Bamber making his way downstairs.  He then enters the main bedroom via the box room and open fires on June discharging 6 rounds.  Mr Bamber comes running back up the stairs and he shoots him twice on the stairs immediately preceding the main bedroom.  Mr Bamber turns and Bamber allows him to move to the main staircase where he shoots him again twice. 

Here he risks waking up the twins.  That makes no sense.  If the twins awake and start making noise, he could be rumbled.

Surely it would be more logical for him to take care of Nevill first.  Both you and Adam, and really all guilters, seem to have great difficulty with this point. 

* *  The pair end up in the kitchen where the violent struggle takes place and the silencer scratches the mantle hence the paint.  Seeing Mr Bamber is no longer a threat he loads 4 further bullets and inflicts the gunshot wounds to the head.

Could you explain to us in detail how the silencer physically can scratch the paintwork on the underside of the aga mantle?  I am not convinced that this is even possible.  It's another one of those things that everybody - even the pro-innocent camp - just assume is true without examining.

*  Opens his bedroom door, carries Sheila to the main bedroom and inflicts the not immediately fatal wound.  Realising she is still alive he reloads another bullet and inflicts the fatal wound.  Removes Sheila's gag, blindfold, ankle/wrist ties and makes a pigs ear of staging the scene hence Martyn Ismail's testimony at the 2002 appeal.  Removes the silencer and puts it in a bag at the back of the cupboard where it is later found by Mr Boutflour jnr.

All the above fits with the bloodstains and casings etc.

Does it also fit with the ballistics and with the findings about the likelihood of the contact and close-contact wounds coming from the moderated rifle? 

Where is he stood when he removes the silencer from the rifle? 

How does he manage to cross through the crime scene, including the kitchen, without leaving any traces of blood transfers in Nevill's den?

By the way, I thought Mr Boutflour found the silencer in a cardboard box in the gun cupboard?

[Rob_]

Have you any idea how thick the walls are in Georgian houses, Rob? Besides, who was going to hear her anyway. It's of no importance how difficult it was. In the end, all that matters is that he was able to accomplish it.

Well if JB did the crime, I don't believe Sheila was ever tied up she would have resisted.

[Rob_]

QC's comment

"She also does not look like somebody who was in distress at the point of death.  I realise this point is a bit more subjective and debatable, but she looks to me like somebody who passed on in a calm state, having composed herself."

I agree with this 100% she was calm when she died not fighting.

[Rob_]

I think your winning on this argument Rob, I don’t know how or if marks would be left if tape was used?

Cc is also struggling with how JB managed to get the shot to Sheila, this has always puzzled me, though I know Steve thinks this is easy.

Someone paranoid will fight, I got advice from someone on this who works in mental health.

[Adam]

Well if JB did the crime, I don't believe Sheila was ever tied up she would have resisted.

Sheila tied up?

[Adam]

Cc is also struggling with how JB managed to get the shot to Sheila, this has always puzzled me, though I know Steve thinks this is easy.

Someone paranoid will fight, I got advice from someone on this who works in mental health.

Sheila was a lamb to the slaughter.

Bamber knew this during his supper reconnaisance.

[guest29835]

*  The pair end up in the kitchen where the violent struggle takes place and the silencer scratches the mantle hence the paint.  Seeing Mr Bamber is no longer a threat he loads 4 further bullets and inflicts the gunshot wounds to the head.

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

[Adam]

QC's comment

"She also does not look like somebody who was in distress at the point of death.  I realise this point is a bit more subjective and debatable, but she looks to me like somebody who passed on in a calm state, having composed herself."

I agree with this 100% she was calm when she died not fighting.

As said, a lamb to the slaughter.

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy turning to fire at him.  I think I have explained why I would dismiss that whole scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house, but regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

Agree with that. Nevill was shot twice in the face from inches away. And nearly 4 times.

[Adam]

Another point is that, actually, if you stop and think about it, the idea of a violent struggle between Jeremy and Nevill makes very little sense.  It's another thing that everybody accepts without thinking about whether it's logical.  I've been through this previously with Adam in a couple of threads last year.  (To Adam's credit, those are some of his best posts to the Forum, as he was actually posting normally on those threads and it was a good discussion with him).

If Jeremy is armed, then he must shoot Nevill.  He isn't going to start getting artsy about it.  He wants Nevill dead or incapacitated and he doesn't want Nevill to get to a phone.

One good point about Cambridgecutie's scenario is that she has learned from the flaws in other guilter scenarios and she has not fallen into the trap of trying to explain how Nevill makes it out of the bedroom, which is squaring a circle.

Instead, she very wisely has Nevill already on the stairs with Jeremy firing down at him.  I agree with Camrbridgecutie on this.  It fits the ballistics and injuries.  But I think I have explained above why I would dismiss the whole background scenario due to the implausibility of Jeremy wanting to wake everybody up and having them run around the house.  Nevertheless, regardless of how Nevill gets there, we still have to explain how Nevill makes it to the kitchen without Jeremy stopping him.

Jeremy can just kill him on the stairs or in the corridor, can't he? 

Why would Jeremy risk allowing Nevill to barricade himself in the kitchen and go for the phone? 

Also, why would Nevill stop at the kitchen?  Why not barricade himself in the den and grab a gun? Or even go for the exit, and on finding it locked, leave blooded prints there?

Why not stop by the downstairs shower room and grab one of the guns stored there?

Adam couldn't explain any of this, and I don't blame him.  I sportingly helped him by suggesting that Jeremy must have struggled on those narrow stairs with a long-barrelled rifle, but honestly, given the injuries Nevill had suffered, surely Jeremy would have caught up with him?

The truth is that Jeremy, if he is the killer, messed up.  He needed to kill Nevill in bed and somehow and for some unknown reason, that didn't happen, and he was left with a mess, but we are still left with this inexplicable hole in the scenario.

Now let's move into the kitchen and assume both of them are there.  We don't know why Jeremy has been so slack and allowed Nevill to get that far, but putting that aside, why does Jeremy need to struggle with Nevill at all?  I really don't understand that.

Guilters struggle with this and, clutching at straws, they say that Jeremy ran out of ammunition.  OK.  Well let's say that happened.  We're still left with the hole in the scenario earlier mentioned because Jeremy could still have attacked Nevill before he reached the kitchen, but if we're in the kitchen, why doesn't Nevill make for the back corridor and either exit the farmhouse or retreat to the den?  Why isn't there blood on the door between the back corridor and the kitchen?

These problems also slightly apply to a Sheila scenario as well, but they are easier to reconcile with Sheila as the killer, in my view. 

Why?

Because a fight between Nevill and Sheila is much more likely in that situation than a fight between Jeremy and Nevill.  Jeremy doesn't need to fight Nevill, but Sheila would have to struggle with him.  That's one of the reasons a Sheila scenario seems more logical.

Nevill goes through the open bedroom door.

Bamber is on June's side of the bed.