My Challenge To The Supporters

[killingeve]

While Sheila took the gun upstairs to shoot June. Nevill rang Jeremy. Nevil ended the call and ran upstairs as he heard shots being fired. Sheila had fired five shots at June. She then pivoted and shot Nevill with the remaining four bullets in the magazine as Nevill came up the stairs.


One shell casing was found a few steps down the landing. I believe three of the shell casings from shots fired a Nevil bounced off the wall, while one went passed the door frame onto the landing area. As the reconstruction below illustrates

I believe Mrs Bamber also suffered a non-penetrating wound meaning she received a total of 8 gunshot wounds: 6 not immediately life threatening, 2 immediately life threatening.  This can also be evidenced by casings DRH 6,7,7,8,10,11,12,43 and exited bullets DRH 5,9,35,35

The gunshot wounds to Mr Bamber's face were slightly below the horizontal (pathology report pre-trial).  The gunshot wounds to his arm and torso were fired from above (pathology testimony at trial).  Your scenario seems to have 3 shots travelling to Mr Bamber's front on the same trajectory path.  The pathological evidence has the 2 face shots on one trajectory path and the shots to the rear on a different trajectory path? 

The distance of the face shots was within inches and the arm/torso shot at least 2 feet away.  This also does not appear to fit with your scenario. 

[killingeve]

Put a sock in it for goodness sake. We DON'T need this !!

Stop cluttering the board with off-topic posts that others have gone to the time and trouble to create.

[lookout]

Stop cluttering the board with off-topic posts that others have gone to the time and trouble to create.

You're cluttering the board by just being here !!

[killingeve]

One must consider the fact that Malcom Fletcher came to this conclusion by looking at autopsy photographs. He did not inspect the actual wounds as would be best practice.

And when you also factor in that Nevils head was in contact with a coal scuttle. Its very possible that Fletchers opinion is being skewed by a phenomenon known as "Pseudo Powder Tattooing"

https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/stippling-powder-tattooing-and-pseudopowder-tattooing.html

What are you suggesting that coal from the scuttle deposited neatly around Mr Bamber's face wounds and Malcolm Fletcher mistook this for gunshot residue?

[killingeve]

You're cluttering the board by just being here !!

Stop cluttering the board with off-topic posts that others have gone to the time and trouble to create.

May I suggest you create your own threads and do as you please on them subject to the moderator's approval. 

[guest29835]

Stop cluttering the board with off-topic posts that others have gone to the time and trouble to create.

May I suggest you create your own threads and do as you please on them subject to the moderator's approval.

That's the ticket, Cambridgecutie!  The firm hand of discipline is what these people need!

Good for you!  I don't know how they've got away with it for so long.  Adam took the soft approach with his moral support initiative.  Just as well you turned up to straight them out.

[killingeve]

I'm not saying there is a problem with the call to Jeremy; I'm merely explaining how - as I see it - the scenario must work.  David's scenario unfortunately can't work in my view because Nevill would not just let Sheila run off while he rings Jeremy.  Instead, Sheila would have to be present and Nevill then terminates the call only when she runs off.  I honestly don't see how it could work any other way if Jeremy is innocent.  Nevill would not let Sheila run around the house with a loaded gun, nor would he assume that the gun is unloaded.  He is a former RAF pilot and would have sufficient sense to realise the danger of any gun, loaded or presumed not loaded. 

A key rule around guns is that you always assume they is loaded.  You never ever rely on a belief that a gun is unloaded.  People have been killed that way.  I have been around guns and even if I knew a gun were unloaded, I would always assume that it is still loaded and never let somebody point it at somebody else.  Note also that even if the magazine was not in the rifle at this point, it could still have had a cartridge in the breach.

I don't pretend my scenario is free of problems.  A basic problem with my scenario is that you have to wonder why Nevill didn't tackle Sheila for the gun and take it off her.  It must be that he either did and was injured and then resorted to the phone, or he tried to and couldn't catch her and in the end resorted to stalling her by telephoning Jeremy.  The latter seems the more plausible of the two.  I certainly wouldn't assume that just because she was female, short and slight, that this means Nevill could tackle her easily.  That definitely cannot be assumed.

Why do you think Bews et al would not go up to the farmhouse and kept a safe distance? 

The Home Office has calculated only 3 - 4 joules of pressure from a firearm is required to cause a penetrating wound.

The Eley cartridges weigh 2.59 grams with a muzzle velocity of 1040 ft/s which equates to 130.127 joules of pressure.

If only 3 - 4 joules of pressure is required to inflict a penetrating wound it is surely clear to see what the effect will be with 130.127 joules of pressure?

The bullets travel at a speed of 1040 ft/s. 

[killingeve]

That's the ticket, Cambridgecutie!  The firm hand of discipline is what these people need!

Good for you!  I don't know how they've got away with it for so long.  Adam took the soft approach with his moral support initiative.  Just as well you turned up to straight them out.

Stop cluttering the board with off-topic posts that others have gone to the time and trouble to create.

[guest29835]

Why do you think Bews et al would not go up to the farmhouse and kept a safe distance? 

The Home Office has calculated only 3 - 4 joules of pressure from a firearm is required to cause a penetrating wound.

The Eley cartridges weigh 2.59 grams with a muzzle velocity of 1040 ft/s which equates to 130.127 joules of pressure.

If only 3 - 4 joules of pressure is required to inflict a penetrating wound it is surely clear to see what the effect will be with 130.127 joules of pressure?

The bullets travel at a speed of 1040 ft/s.

Sorry you may have accidentally quoted the wrong post, as I haven't raised those issues specifically on this thread.

An interesting post, though.  It would assist if you could add your specific source for the information from the Home Office.  Can you do that, please?

[guest29835]

Stop cluttering the board with off-topic posts that others have gone to the time and trouble to create.

Calm down.  I agree that people should not clutter the board with off-topic posts, but the odd jokey or friendly post seems benign to me.  Lookout asked how Jane was.  Jane replied.  They're not cluttering the thread. 

I agree that posts that are repetitive and obtrusive should be removed, preferably voluntarily by the offending poster on polite request, and I have raised that very issue myself with Adam.  You may recall that you and others were conspicuous by your absence when I needed backing and support on that point.  Was that partisanship?  At the end of the day, we all have to share this Forum.  I also note that you yourself have adopted the repetitive habit - an example is at the start of this thread.

Overall, the Forum needs sorting out.  People can have opposing views without all this trouble.  Unfortunately, I have the deep suspicion that some people revel in all the drama and others are here to cause drama on purpose as a way of undermining discussion.  If so, it doesn't bode well for this place.  It's really not pleasant being attacked personally, then being told that you're a 'cry baby' or hyper-sensitive', then being accused of the same behaviour when - understandably - you retaliate on your abusers.  It's rather shameful behaviour all in all, really, and makes me quite cynical about human nature and certain people on here and in real life who implore in us the Christmas spirit and Christian goodwill.  People should be judged on their actions, not on nice words.

[guest7363]

I don't see a problem with the call to Jeremy, this is quite plausible to me anyway. It's harder to fit in the second call to the Police but I do believe one was made.

Could Nevil have believed the gun was maybe in a safe condition, or that Sheila although she ran off with the gun was not actually intending to use it?

The phone call to the Police has got to be factored in Rob, it’s part of the submissions, so Nevill has phoned Jeremy for help and if it’s the case like QC has suggested (which is the only plausible scenario) some time during this call Sheila sets off on her rampage, the phone goes dead at Jeremy’s end either cut off by Nevill or Sheila, Nevill still  doesn’t react, he decides to phone the police, was it a 999 call or a call to the local police station again similar to what Jeremy did.  I’m sorry but it doesn’t add up to me Rob that Nevill who was particular with his guns, would let his Daughter with a history of Schizophrenia or mental illness either get hold of a gun or lose sight of her with the gun, it’s making a mockery of Nevill’s intelligence.

[Adam]

I did ask Rob what was Sheila doing between Nevill's two calls. Which was a long period of 11or 21 minutes. But got no response.

[guest29835]

The phone call to the Police has got to be factored in Rob, it’s part of the submissions, so Nevill has phoned Jeremy for help and if it’s the case like QC has suggested (which is the only plausible scenario) some time during this call Sheila sets off on her rampage, the phone goes dead at Jeremy’s end either cut off by Nevill or Sheila, Nevill still  doesn’t react, he decides to phone the police, was it a 999 call or a call to the local police station again similar to what Jeremy did. I’m sorry but it doesn’t add up to me Rob that Nevill who was particular with his guns, would let his Daughter with a history of Schizophrenia or mental illness either get hold of a gun or lose sight of her with the gun, it’s making a mockery of Nevill’s intelligence.

The simple explanation is that it's a case of Nevill and Sheila at stand-off; for whatever reason, Nevill calls Jeremy, then Nevill is going after Sheila and ends the call with Jeremy shortly after he answered.  Jeremy tries to call back but obviously receives an engaged tone or there is no answer.

To bring a 999 call into it, I think you'd need to have Nevill dialling 999 before he rings Jeremy, and you'd have to then construct a scenario at the police end in which the same one or two operators somehow accidentally confuse and conflate two different calls and leave an incomplete record of what happened.  It would have to be the same operator. Wouldn't the civilian operator at the least have come forward at the time and explained his confusion and explained that possibly there was an earlier call from Nevill?

A later call from Nevill, to anyone, anywhere, seems rather implausible given that he would be badly injured and there would be more blood and so on, but there again, we can't rely on the photographs of what was found near the kitchen phone.

[lookout]

The car that arrived first at WHF was as a result of Nevill's call to EP at 03.26, followed by another car after Jeremy's call at 03.36. That 10 minute window from Jeremy's end was when he tried to ring back his father and found the line was engaged. The solution is simple enough it's the amount of different twists that have been added, courtesy of the media, dramas and those who don't  ( want ) to believe that Jeremy's innocent.

[guest29835]

The car that arrived first at WHF was as a result of Nevill's call to EP at 03.26, followed by another car after Jeremy's call at 03.36. That 10 minute window from Jeremy's end was when he tried to ring back his father and found the line was engaged. The solution is simple enough it's the amount of different twists that have been added, courtesy of the media, dramas and those who don't  ( want ) to believe that Jeremy's innocent.

Are you saying that Nevill made two calls with Sheila present?  One a 999 call, then the call to Jeremy?  Sheila flees upstairs when Jeremy answers?

Why didn't the civilian operator come forward after Jeremy was arrested and report receiving a 999 call from Nevill?