Author Topic: My Challenge To The Supporters  (Read 35990 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2021, 10:27:PM »
The bottom line is, there is no way that Nevill would let Sheila go upstairs to either shoot the twins or shoot June and him stay behind and make a phone call to Jeremy, not a chance!

And what do you base this on? Did Nevill specifically state should such an event transpire he would handle it in a particular way?  ::)

Offline David1819

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2021, 10:29:PM »
In the Sheila scenario there are three motives that overlap -

Motive A) Believes the twins are possessed by the devil, Hatred against June, and also wants to end her life. No known hatred for Neville however in the house he is an obstacle that needs to be eliminated in order to kill June, the twins and herself.

Motive B) The threat of having her children taken away from her combined with her parents suggesting and supporting the idea. This creates the motive for altruistic filicide and could also create a dislike of Neville.

Motive C) She could also have killed the twins in an act of what is know as spouse revenge filicide. Wanting to make Colin suffer for one reason or another by killing the children.



"Mothers, particularly, are the group with the highest risk
of becoming victims of homicide by patients with schizophrenia
(Devaux et al., 1974; Estroff et al., 1998; McKnight
et al., 1966). In this study, the rate of matricide was also
higher than the rate of patricide, and female sex of the victim
was a significant factor that raised the risk of parricide
20-fold. Raising a child is primarily the mother’s responsibility
and they are the caregivers who spend the most time
with the patients. Thus, they play major roles in forcing
medications, forcing hospitalisations, and providing discipline.
In this process, long-term conflicts between mothers
and patients can occur, and mothers can be direct targets of
longstanding delusional ideas of persecution or paranoid
ideation or both."

source- Clinical features of parricide in
patients with schizophrenia (2008)



"All of the women in the NGRI group described psychotic motivations for
their murders. Common themes included the delusional conviction that the
child was defective or monstrous in some way (such as possessed by Satan, or
half human and half dog), hallucinatory commands to kill the child, and the
idea that the child could be saved from disaster (fates such as being raped,
becoming a prostitute, or undergoing torture) only through death. In contrast,
the women found CR described a variety of nonpsychotic motives. Two of the
eight (25 percent) indicated that the child was simply unwanted; three (37 percent)
asserted that the child died by accident, in the course of a beating; one
(13 percent) reported that the child died after an accidental fall; and two (25
percent) blamed another for the death"
.
source- Insanity and Filicide: Women Who Murder Their Children
Carol E. Holden, Andrea Stephenson Burland, Craig A. Lemme




"In this case, the reasons for attempted suicide and extended
filicide seem to be two: (1) altruistic in the light of concern
about the welfare of the children and (2) spouse revenge in
the background of marital problems and infidelity, and intent
to induce pain, sorrow, and guilt in the husband by taking
away children. The demographic characteristics and the
background history are similar to common features reported
in the literature such as lack of social support, primary care
giver status, and relationship problems between the couple.
The reasons for not giving any hint may be spousal infidelity,
wanting to take revenge, depression, and lack of knowledge
about availability of help."[6?8
[/color]Source - Filicide as a part of extended suicide: An experience of psychotherapy with
the survivor. M. Manjula, C. R. Chandrasheka


"Her complaints during her prior hospitalizations included command hallucinations
(which told her to kill herself), depression, agitation, and paranoid
delusional ideation. She was being followed by Community Mental Health and
was taking antipsychotic medication at the time of the murder.
The defendant was evaluated on the issue of legal insanity approximately
five months after the murder. At this time, she described the voices as suggesting
that she kill her daughter and indicating that her daughter would be
better off and happier dead."

Insanity and Filicide: Women Who Murder Their Children.  American Journal of psychiatry. Published in 1996.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 10:34:PM by David1819 »

guest7363

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2021, 10:34:PM »
And what do you base this on? Did Nevill specifically state should such an event transpire he would handle it in a particular way?  ::)
Why was he happy to let her do it?  What would any normal person do,  phone a friend?

guest7363

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2021, 10:39:PM »
In the Sheila scenario there are three motives that overlap -

Motive A) Believes the twins are possessed by the devil, Hatred against June, and also wants to end her life. No known hatred for Neville however in the house he is an obstacle that needs to be eliminated in order to kill June, the twins and herself.

Motive B) The threat of having her children taken away from her combined with her parents suggesting and supporting the idea. This creates the motive for altruistic filicide and could also create a dislike of Neville.

Motive C) She could also have killed the twins in an act of what is know as spouse revenge filicide. Wanting to make Colin suffer for one reason or another by killing the children.



"Mothers, particularly, are the group with the highest risk
of becoming victims of homicide by patients with schizophrenia
(Devaux et al., 1974; Estroff et al., 1998; McKnight
et al., 1966). In this study, the rate of matricide was also
higher than the rate of patricide, and female sex of the victim
was a significant factor that raised the risk of parricide
20-fold. Raising a child is primarily the mother’s responsibility
and they are the caregivers who spend the most time
with the patients. Thus, they play major roles in forcing
medications, forcing hospitalisations, and providing discipline.
In this process, long-term conflicts between mothers
and patients can occur, and mothers can be direct targets of
longstanding delusional ideas of persecution or paranoid
ideation or both."

source- Clinical features of parricide in
patients with schizophrenia (2008)



"All of the women in the NGRI group described psychotic motivations for
their murders. Common themes included the delusional conviction that the
child was defective or monstrous in some way (such as possessed by Satan, or
half human and half dog), hallucinatory commands to kill the child, and the
idea that the child could be saved from disaster (fates such as being raped,
becoming a prostitute, or undergoing torture) only through death. In contrast,
the women found CR described a variety of nonpsychotic motives. Two of the
eight (25 percent) indicated that the child was simply unwanted; three (37 percent)
asserted that the child died by accident, in the course of a beating; one
(13 percent) reported that the child died after an accidental fall; and two (25
percent) blamed another for the death"
.
source- Insanity and Filicide: Women Who Murder Their Children
Carol E. Holden, Andrea Stephenson Burland, Craig A. Lemme




"In this case, the reasons for attempted suicide and extended
filicide seem to be two: (1) altruistic in the light of concern
about the welfare of the children and (2) spouse revenge in
the background of marital problems and infidelity, and intent
to induce pain, sorrow, and guilt in the husband by taking
away children. The demographic characteristics and the
background history are similar to common features reported
in the literature such as lack of social support, primary care
giver status, and relationship problems between the couple.
The reasons for not giving any hint may be spousal infidelity,
wanting to take revenge, depression, and lack of knowledge
about availability of help."[6?8
[/color]Source - Filicide as a part of extended suicide: An experience of psychotherapy with
the survivor. M. Manjula, C. R. Chandrasheka


"Her complaints during her prior hospitalizations included command hallucinations
(which told her to kill herself), depression, agitation, and paranoid
delusional ideation. She was being followed by Community Mental Health and
was taking antipsychotic medication at the time of the murder.
The defendant was evaluated on the issue of legal insanity approximately
five months after the murder. At this time, she described the voices as suggesting
that she kill her daughter and indicating that her daughter would be
better off and happier dead."

Insanity and Filicide: Women Who Murder Their Children.  American Journal of psychiatry. Published in 1996.
You can copy and paste all the shit and crap you want, I’m talking about Nevill confronting Shelia and his reaction, not hers his!

Online Roch

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2021, 10:52:PM »
You can copy and paste all the shit and crap you want, I’m talking about Nevill confronting Shelia and his reaction, not hers his!

Isn't what CC does a load of copy and paste? 😀

Offline Adam

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2021, 11:00:PM »
You can copy and paste all the shit and crap you want, I’m talking about Nevill confronting Shelia and his reaction, not hers his!

David does post a lot of crap. He highlights it in bold or red to try to give it gravitas.

However he believes posting sourced evidence against Bamber is wrong.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest7363

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2021, 11:05:PM »
Isn't what CC does a load of copy and paste? 😀
🙈🙈I don’t know Roch I’m trying to be good, I’m getting a book full of copy and paste about Sheila’s condition, which we’ve discussed a million times!  My thoughts on Nevill’s reaction don’t appear to be the same as others?

guest7363

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2021, 11:10:PM »
David does post a lot of crap. He highlights it in bold or red to try to give it gravitas.

However he believes posting sourced evidence against Bamber is wrong.
I can’t be bothered reading it, my thoughts on what Nevill would let Sheila do or  get away with, differ quite a lot from his, he would phone a friend first while sheila runs off crazily to shoot everyone, he’d let her get away with it because she’s his daughter?  At what stage does Nevill phone the Police, any ideas?

Offline Jane

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2021, 07:01:AM »
🙈🙈I don’t know Roch I’m trying to be good, I’m getting a book full of copy and paste about Sheila’s condition, which we’ve discussed a million times!  My thoughts on Nevill’s reaction don’t appear to be the same as others?


Text books can be a useful tool. They tell us what is documented as as being a possibility because a tiny percent of the population of those who are labelled, have engaged in certain acts. A possibility isn't a probability.

Because there are so many different views on Sheila's moods over the time she was at WHF, it's not possible to pinpoint it exactly, other than to say she was fragile. Nevill, on the other hand was solid, so unless he was laying in a drunken stupor, it's unlikely that he -or any other father here- would allow their mentally fragile daughter to leave a room carrying a fully loaded gun when their wife and grandchildren were asleep upstairs. Would ANY of those of you who are fathers, have stopped to 'phone a friend' -given that you weren't even certain the friend would answer, and giving her more time- or would you have given chase? I think it's reasonable to assume that Nevill was a pro active man who believed prevention to be preferable to cure, therefore he'd have sought to disarm her before any damage had been done. I think consideration has to be given to him being caught entirely off guard and unprepared. The most likely place for that to have occurred being the bedroom.

guest29835

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2021, 07:06:AM »
I believe the only way in which a Sheila scenario can work is if Sheila is present when Nevill makes the call.  When Jeremy answers, she runs out of the kitchen in the direction of the main stairway.  Nevill speaks one or two short sentences to Jeremy, then terminates the call and follows her.

guest7363

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2021, 07:10:AM »

Text books can be a useful tool. They tell us what is documented as as being a possibility because a tiny percent of the population of those who are labelled, have engaged in certain acts. A possibility isn't a probability.

Because there are so many different views on Sheila's moods over the time she was at WHF, it's not possible to pinpoint it exactly, other than to say she was fragile. Nevill, on the other hand was solid, so unless he was laying in a drunken stupor, it's unlikely that he -or any other father here- would allow their mentally fragile daughter to leave a room carrying a fully loaded gun when their wife and grandchildren were asleep upstairs. Would ANY of those of you who are fathers, have stopped to 'phone a friend' -given that you weren't even certain the friend would answer, and giving her more time- or would you have given chase? I think it's reasonable to assume that Nevill was a pro active man who believed prevention to be preferable to cure, therefore he'd have sought to disarm her before any damage had been done. I think consideration has to be given to him being caught entirely off guard and unprepared. The most likely place for that to have occurred being the bedroom.
I agree with you Jane, it’s the only sensible and logical explanation.  But it doesn’t fit the phone call, because if Nevill is shot unprepared four times upstairs, he can’t and doesn’t make the call.  He’s in no fit state to make a call after being shot and according to Bamber Nevill never mentions Sheila shooting anyone or the fact he’s been shot?

Offline Jane

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2021, 07:30:AM »
I agree with you Jane, it’s the only sensible and logical explanation.  But it doesn’t fit the phone call, because if Nevill is shot unprepared four times upstairs, he can’t and doesn’t make the call.  He’s in no fit state to make a call and according to Bamber Nevill never mentions Sheila shooting anyone or the fact he’s been shot?


No. It doesn't leave room for a phone call, but if we assume there to have been a window of opportunity, making it would have taken much longer than it would today because the number -5/6 digits- had to be dialled. If we allow that the call was made and -eventually- answered, what form might the conversation have taken? An uninjured Nevill might have said "Come now. Sheila's got a gun". Did not JB -eventually- having originally felt it to be so unimportant that it took him 20 minutes before contacting police, say that his father had sounded "terrified", further, telling Colin, he may have been injured. I don't think there's have been any mistaking distress and pain had there been any, IF such a call had been made. I can only regard it as a make it up as you go script.

Offline lookout

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2021, 08:10:AM »
Nevill would have been a sitting duck whether the holder of the rifle was male or female. After a full day harvesting, then taking the dogs out as was the norm, returning, locking up pouring himself a nightcap ( gin and tonic ) a cigarette or two, relaxing in his favourite armchair, the man would have been whacked. Try doing what he did when you turn 60 !
 I don't think he was in any fit state for what was to come which is why he didn't stand an earthly being confronted with a rifle.
Worse still it being his daughter who he wouldn't have wanted to have hurt, but she had the upper hand---the rifle !  No matter how big and strong a person is you'd be hard-pushed to tackle anyone who was armed especially someone who was " troubled " which Sheila had been.

Online Rob_

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2021, 08:20:AM »
I believe the only way in which a Sheila scenario can work is if Sheila is present when Nevill makes the call.  When Jeremy answers, she runs out of the kitchen in the direction of the main stairway.  Nevill speaks one or two short sentences to Jeremy, then terminates the call and follows her.

I don't see a problem with the call to Jeremy, this is quite plausible to me anyway. It's harder to fit in the second call to the Police but I do believe one was made.

Could Nevil have believed the gun was maybe in a safe condition, or that Sheila although she ran off with the gun was not actually intending to use it?

Offline lookout

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Re: My Challenge To The Supporters
« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2021, 08:24:AM »
I imagine Nevill tried to calm Sheila as he'd done in the past and succeeded but this last time had been different in that the boys had come into the suppertime conversation and Sheila was to learn that Colin would give them 100% care, allowing Sheila visiting rights only.
As Ferguson had stated " it would have tipped her over the edge ". Of course it did !