Author Topic: Britain and Ireland  (Read 8723 times)

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guest29835

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Britain and Ireland
« on: September 17, 2021, 11:39:AM »
My own ancestry is divided - as is the case for lots of English people.  I personally consider the Irish to be British in the broader sense.  (Technically, the true Britons are the Welsh, but that's another discussion). 

At the crucible of this relationship is Northern Ireland - a fitting metaphor for a place of heat and passion, even today.  Which way will Northern Ireland turn?  Will Ulster be reunited?  Will Ireland be united as an independent country for the first time in its history?  It is disputable whether Ireland was ever united prior to British administration.  In common with the rest of Europe during the medieval period, it was a collection of regional statelets, and even today there are ethnic-regional differences among the indigenous of geographic Ireland: an Ulsterman, even if he is Gaelic Irish, is clearly very distinct from a Corkonian.

Of interest, a documentary I found about a group of British Ulstermen and women visiting the South:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWpDtOXhDn4

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2021, 12:50:AM »

guest29835

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2021, 11:19:AM »
The Troubles were stupid.  The explanation given for all the violence was the distorted history and the natural rambunctiousness of the two major communities, etc., etc., but I am unconvinced by these and similar explanations.  I believe that the conflict was more ideological than it appeared and a staging point for a much wider conflict.

There was a dilemma for successive UK governments as to how to deal with the IRA: a domestic terrorist organisation, made up largely of native British people, albeit who mostly self-identified as ethnic Irish.  In some countries, even in Europe - Spain and ETA spring to mind - the government would have just rounded up all the Provisional IRA and either detained them until old age or just shot them.  Witness Spain's ruthlessness with dissidents of the Basque Country.  The identities of nearly-everybody in the IRA were known, even well-known within the communities, so this was possible, but a brutal crackdown of the scale seen elsewhere would never have happened in a country such as Britain with its deeper respect for the rule of law and judicial independence, and so on.  Yet the IRA's position was always precarious. 

Within the Republican movement itself there were conflicting philosophies and ideologies, and very different objectives.  Some Republicans were Gaelic Irish ethno-nationalists of some stripe and seemed to be pursuing an ethnic-cleansing strategy that would pay dividends demographically decades later.  Others were neo-Marxists and saw the Provisional IRA as the spearhead of a socialist revolutionary cause that happened to be in geographic Ireland.  In that school of thought, uniting Ireland would be one-in-the-eye for Imperialist Britain and its capitalist-fascist running dogs, but there was common-cause and sympathy with working class British people.  Even the Middle East conflict got a look-in, with the Green side rooting for the Palestinians and the Orange side cheering on the Israelis. 

Republicanism itself, in its purer form, is a more or less a benign philosophy that just says both major traditions, Ulster British and Irish Protestants on the one side and Gaelic Irish on the other, should unite under one all-Ireland civic polity - hence the Irish Tricolour, orange and green, with white in the centre signifying a truce between the two and onward co-existence.  White, of course, is a combination of all colours in the colour spectrum, and I sometimes wonder why pride activists don't fly a white flag instead.  Perhaps because a white flag is also a symbol for surrender.

It's easy to see that Irish Republicanism has its roots in radical Enlightenment thinking, the brotherhood of Man, fungibility, etc.  Republicanism in the dictionary sense and when applied to any country is the idea of an elected head of state, but the root of the idea is a rebellion against the manifestations of organic rule.  The whole basis of kingship is that a country comes from somewhere, and we are of Somewhere, we are not citizens of Nowhere, as William Morris would have it (A Dream of John Ball).  If you are a citizen of Nowhere, then life is materialistic and it makes sense to vote for rulers rather than accept or reject them on the basis of their kingliness, nobility and martial strength. 

It is easy to present organic nationhood as archaic, even primeval in the looser sense of that term, whereas 'liberal republicanism' can be presented as modern and attractive.  For now, the point I make is that the radical liberal Enlightenment is the true ideological starting-point of Irish Republicanism.  Revanchist nationalistic aspects were wrapped-up in it, but not at the core of it.  Thus, Provisional Sinn Fein's embracing of multi-culturalism and mass immigration is not necessarily inconsistent with the underlying philosophy of Republicanism.  Sinn Fein was never strictly 'nationalist'.  There is where I take issue.

Republicanism is a benign and noble idea, but it can't work.  The reasons it can't work cannot be exhausted here and are in any case difficult to explain because they require an understanding of everyday experience and a measure of common-sense, which is not always common among people focused on book study.  We are not born as tabulae rasae.  Tribalism is natural and imperative to Man.  When an attempt is made to mix one community with another by imposition of force, the end result is the domination of one community by the other.  In the case of the British and Irish dividing Ulster, the border served as a peace wall to keep the two communities apart and should have been adhered to and respected. 

The IRA's post-War activities destroyed this peace, and ultimately, as I think Steve may be hinting, preclude any possibility of a real peace between the two communities in our lifetimes based on respect for a border that maintains the two traditions.  Instead, the Liberal Republicans - their proper name, I think - insist that the two communities live together cheek-by-jowl.  Common-sense tells us this can't work if there is to be respect for culture.  One culture must win out over the other, therefore the likely ultimate outcome is the end of the Ulster-Scots as a distinct and discrete ethnic people and the end of a British culture in geographic Ireland, or any culture at all - and probably, the end of British sovereignty there.  Thus, as Gerry Adams says, 'equality is a weapon' you can beat your opponents with.  It truly is.

The more I consider it, the more I believe that the true winner in all this is globalism and its interests.  I do not know if Ireland will be united politically.  I imagine there are lots of Gaelic Irish in Northern Ireland who see themselves as Irish but would prefer to remain part of Britain - for all sorts of complex reasons.  But if Ireland is not united politically, then it will continue down the road of 'Hibernisation' in its politics, civics and everyday culture and will orient itself to the South - becoming one country in two, if not two countries in one.  It will be done in the name of 'uniting' everybody, and it may even be that the victory banners are for Republicanism, but Ireland, whether two countries or one, will become just another anodyne, multi-culturalist globalist place.  As will Britain.  As will France.  As will almost-all countries.

guest29835

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2021, 06:58:PM »

guest29835

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2021, 08:37:PM »
How could the post-War history of geographic Ireland have played out differently, and more positively? 

The root of the problem, in my opinion, was poor statecraft on the part of Britain and Ireland. Ireland should not have been allowed to become a republic outside the Commonwealth.  The old Free State should have remained in place as a British dominion.  This was important not just to maintain traditional links with Britain, but also so that Nationalists and Unionists could ultimately reconcile peaceably under a single consistent constitutional arrangement in which Unionists would have confidence. 

Hardline Republicans should have played the long game and worked quietly and peacefully towards reconciliation with Northern Ulster-Scots, with the promise of a federated state - perhaps under some form of consociationalism for the restored Province of Ulster.  This new Ireland would have been notionally under the Crown, but for all effect independent.  That would have achieved everything of geopolitical importance that the Provisional IRA demanded, without the need for all the sad, tragic violence.

The Republican violence was not just cruel and totally unnecessary - worse than that: it was stupid.  It was stupid because it tainted the cause of a united Ireland and has, ironically, possibly guaranteed Northern Ireland's future.  Whenever I think about this issue, I reflexively recoil at the idea of a united Ireland simply because, under present circumstances, it will be the result of an organised and systematic campaign of sadistic murder, torture and violence against a law-governed state and its innocent citizens - those innocent citizens include not just Ulster-Scots and mainland British people, but the Gaelic Irish themselves, who have been intimidated, murdered, tortured and threatened by the Provisional IRA (and other paramilitaries, such as the INLA).  The moves towards 'peace' on the part of Republicans were clearly enunciated under the unspoken (and at times, explicit) threat of further violence should certain demands not be met. 

If a united Ireland happens, the celebration marches will be over the bodies and wrecked lives of innocent people who were victimised not by an enemy force in a conventional war, but by political and paramilitary thugs and bullies, often from the victims' own communities.  I cannot be the only person who harbours reservations. What does it say about our country, and us, that we can allow terrorists to bully us into submission like this, to the point that the British government in effect makes embryonic moves to give up Crown territory and abandon some of its most loyal subjects?  It is unacceptable.  Even those with no love for the Union Flag can acknowledge that it should continue to fly in the north of Ireland in the name of the rule of law, if only to send the principled message to Republican terrorists and wrong-doers everywhere around the world that right and law must always prevail, whatever the cost.  You can campaign for a united Ireland, but you cannot and should not unlawfully deprive other human beings of their lives for this goal.  They, the Republican terrorists, had no right to do this and, as a lesson, I think their ambitions should be thwarted and Britain should declare that any prospect of a united Ireland is foreclosed until the memories of the IRA's violence and the human destruction and damage it caused have receded.  That is the price they must pay for the wrong they did.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2021, 09:37:PM »
For Nicholas Knachtbull: https://youtu.be/fKpdcyWOLRg

Video made in 2019: https://youtu.be/CZukukkc94I

guest29835

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2021, 10:27:PM »
For Nicholas Knachtbull: https://youtu.be/fKpdcyWOLRg

Video made in 2019: https://youtu.be/CZukukkc94I

What was especially sickening were the 'whataboutery' justifications they advanced (and still advance) for these outrages.  Fancy killing women and children and trying to justify it by reference to dry history books and a border that only had to secured in the first place due to their own violence.  They are garbage and I think especially after Enniskillen (when even elements within the Provisional IRA itself gasped in shock), Britain should not have entertained backchannel talks and deals.  It was all wrong.  That, however, does not mean it was ineffective or illogical and my next post will consider whether, despite its moral flaws, the Peace Process was politically the correct course of action.

Offline Roch

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2021, 08:13:AM »
This song has had a revival, thanks to Alan Partridge..

https://youtu.be/S7woEXovruc

Offline killingeve

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2021, 09:31:AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/20/tony-blairs-apology-for-irish-famine-written-by-aides-papers-reveal

The prime minister’s words, read out by actor Gabriel Byrne at a televised commemoration event in County Cork, were damning in proclaiming: “Those who governed in London at the time failed their people through standing by while a crop failure turned into a massive human tragedy.”

Offline killingeve

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2021, 09:33:AM »


Offline killingeve

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2021, 09:38:AM »
What was especially sickening were the 'whataboutery' justifications they advanced (and still advance) for these outrages.  Fancy killing women and children and trying to justify it by reference to dry history books and a border that only had to secured in the first place due to their own violence.  They are garbage and I think especially after Enniskillen (when even elements within the Provisional IRA itself gasped in shock), Britain should not have entertained backchannel talks and deals.  It was all wrong.  That, however, does not mean it was ineffective or illogical and my next post will consider whether, despite its moral flaws, the Peace Process was politically the correct course of action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00pnIEsxA9A

Offline killingeve

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2021, 09:43:AM »

guest29835

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2021, 10:32:AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/20/tony-blairs-apology-for-irish-famine-written-by-aides-papers-reveal

The prime minister’s words, read out by actor Gabriel Byrne at a televised commemoration event in County Cork, were damning in proclaiming: “Those who governed in London at the time failed their people through standing by while a crop failure turned into a massive human tragedy.”

How was Britain responsible for the Irish Famine?

Offline Roch

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Re: Britain and Ireland
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2021, 11:28:AM »
How was Britain responsible for the Irish Famine?

By our actions, I think we used it indirectly, as an extermination tool.