Britain and Ireland

[killingeve]

By our actions, I think we used it indirectly, as an extermination tool.

Actions or inactions?

[guest29835]

By our actions, I think we used it indirectly, as an extermination tool.

I think it's propaganda.  This sort of thing underscores why history is such an important subject and why it needs to be taught properly in schools.  I would say it is the most important subject.  It can make or break you as a critical thinker and independent adult.  It can turn you into a drone or it can help you metamorphose into an independent citizen. 

If you turn history into a social agenda, you are effectively making education an exercise in brainwashing, telling people what to think and turning them drones.  Drones go round saying things like "the British exterminated the Irish in the Great Famine".  Please, think!

History should be the subject in which you gather facts and form your own mind.  That's what makes it such an engaging, complex and interesting subject, once the hard slog of learning the facts is done.  People who are involved in teaching or imparting history have a very powerful weapon in their hands.  It can literally shape the way you think about the world now - for better or ill. 

[killingeve]

I think it's propaganda.  This sort of thing underscores why history is such an important subject and why it needs to be taught properly in schools.  I would say it is the most important subject.  It can make or break you as a critical thinker and independent adult.  It can turn you into a drone or it can help you metamorphose into an independent citizen. 

If you turn history into a social agenda, you are effectively making education an exercise in brainwashing, telling people what to think and turning them drones.  Drones go round saying things like "the British exterminated the Irish in the Great Famine".  Please, think!

History should be the subject in which you gather facts and form your own mind.  That's what makes it such an engaging, complex and interesting subject, once the hard slog of learning the facts is done.  People who are involved in teaching or imparting history have a very powerful weapon in their hands.  It can literally shape the way you think about the world now - for better or ill.

If its propaganda why did Tony Blair apologise on behalf of the British gov?

And why did David Cameron apologise for Bloody Sunday after the very expensive Saville inquiry?

Why have you failed to mention either of these significant events in any of your posts on this thread? 

[guest29835]

If its propaganda why did Tony Blair apologise on behalf of the British gov?

And why did David Cameron apologise for Bloody Sunday after the very expensive Saville inquiry?

Why have you failed to mention either of these significant events in any of your posts on this thread?

I'm not writing an entry for an encyclopaedia.  How is Bloody Sunday an excuse for the IRA?  And what do you say about allegations that Martin McGuinness was present and even fired the first shot?  The fact that you even give credence to it may suggest that you are a bit naive about the history of the IRA and the origins of the Provisionals.  For instance, what do you know about the IRA leadership of Seán Mac Stíofáin and events such as Bloody Friday? 

The true history of this is that by the 1950s, the old IRA were beaten, or rather, they were spent and redundant, and by the 1960s, they were heading for the historical dustbin.  They were not particularly interested in civil rights, they just hopped on that bandwagon as a revivalist tactic and it revivified them.  From that point, a whole mythology was built up about Northern Ireland being at 'civil war', and the IRA were fighting a cause against 'British oppression'.  It sounds like you've bought it hook-line-and-sinker.  I'm waiting for you say something like, 'How dare you question Lord Savile!  Such an eminent judge!'

Bloody Sunday was unfortunate, but the facts are murky.  In regard to the Great Famine, if you'd bother to read the article you linked to, it is being claimed that Tony Blair did not in fact apologise for anything.  What we can say is that there is clearly fault on both sides, and in fact the subject of mistakes by the British armed forces has been touched on in other threads.  We've discussed the late Dennis Hutchings, and Operation Flavius as well.  I think Operation Flavius was carried out wrongly, as the terrorists could have been arrested, though at the same time I have little sympathy for the dead terrorists, and I acknowledge that it is easy for me to criticise from an armchair point-of-view.  I'm also of the view that it is right in principle to prosecute soldiers, as that's part of what separates us from lawless terrorists, though I would not want to see any of these former soldiers punished harshly if convicted.

[killingeve]

I'm not writing an entry for an encyclopaedia. How is Bloody Sunday an excuse for the IRA?  And what do you say about allegations that Martin McGuinness was present and even fired the first shot?[/b]  The fact that you even give credence to it may suggest that you are a bit naive about the history of the IRA and the origins of the Provisionals.  For instance, what do you know about the IRA leadership of Seán Mac Stíofáin and events such as Bloody Friday? 

The true history of this is that by the 1950s, the old IRA were beaten, or rather, they were spent and redundant, and by the 1960s, they were heading for the historical dustbin.  They were not particularly interested in civil rights, they just hopped on that bandwagon as a revivalist tactic and it revivified them.  From that point, a whole mythology was built up about Northern Ireland being at 'civil war', and the IRA were fighting a cause against 'British oppression'.  It sounds like you've bought it hook-line-and-sinker.  I'm waiting for you say something like, 'How dare you question Lord Savile!  Such an eminent judge!'

Bloody Sunday was unfortunate, but the facts are murky.  In regard to the Great Famine, if you'd bother to read the article you linked to, it is being claimed that Tony Blair did not in fact apologise for anything.  What we can say is that there is clearly fault on both sides, and in fact the subject of mistakes by the British armed forces has been touched on in other threads.  We've discussed the late Dennis Hutchings, and Operation Flavius as well.  I think Operation Flavius was carried out wrongly, as the terrorists could have been arrested, though at the same time I have little sympathy for the dead terrorists, and I acknowledge that it is easy for me to criticise from an armchair point-of-view.  I'm also of the view that it is right in principle to prosecute soldiers, as that's part of what separates us from lawless terrorists, though I would not want to see any of these former soldiers punished harshly if convicted.

You're telling me!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/20/tony-blairs-apology-for-irish-famine-written-by-aides-papers-reveal

The prime minister’s words, read out by actor Gabriel Byrne at a televised commemoration event in County Cork, were damning in proclaiming: “Those who governed in London at the time failed their people through standing by while a crop failure turned into a massive human tragedy.”

The Irish press saw it as the long sought after apology refused by previous UK governments, while taoiseach John Bruton said “The prime minister is to be complimented for the thought and care shown in this statement.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

The report was published on 15 June 2010. The British prime minister David Cameron addressed the House of Commons that afternoon where he acknowledged, among other things, that the paratroopers had fired the first shot, had fired on fleeing unarmed civilians, and shot and killed one man who was already wounded.[5] He then apologised on behalf of the British Government.[6]

The report stated, "The firing by soldiers of 1 PARA on Bloody Sunday caused the deaths of 13 people and injury to a similar number, none of whom was posing a threat of causing death or serious injury,"[10] and also said, "The immediate responsibility for the deaths and injuries on Bloody Sunday lies with those members of Support Company whose unjustifiable firing was the cause of those deaths and injuries."[11] Saville stated that British paratroopers "lost control",[12] fatally shooting fleeing civilians and those who tried to aid the civilians who had been shot by the British soldiers.[13] The report stated that British soldiers had concocted lies in their attempt to hide their acts.[13] Saville stated that the civilians had not been warned by the British soldiers that they intended to shoot.[8] The report states, contrary to the previously established belief, that none of the soldiers fired in response to attacks by petrol bombers or stone throwers, and that the civilians were not posing any threat.[8]

Saville said British soldiers should not have been ordered to enter the Bogside area as "Colonel Wilford either deliberately disobeyed Brigadier MacLellan’s order or failed for no good reason to appreciate the clear limits on what he had been authorised to do".[14] The report stated five British soldiers aimed shots at civilians they knew did not pose a threat and two other British soldiers shot at civilians "in the belief that they might have identified gunmen, but without being certain that this was the case".[14]

The report found that Martin McGuinness "did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire."

[killingeve]

Full Saville report (5000 pages) which took 12 years to complete at a cost of some 200k

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/report-of-the-bloody-sunday-inquiry

[guest29835]

I don't see the point you're making.  Please don't copy and paste lengthy passages to the Forum, unless there is a good reason.  If you want us to look at something outside this site, then provide the link and let us decide if we want to look at it.  I have already read The Guardian article.  I am unimpressed by it and I'm not clear what point you are trying to get across.

[guest29835]

Below I link to a good production by Alex Salmond.  He interviews several people about Northern Ireland.  I particularly enjoyed the interview with the Ulster Unionist, Mike Nesbitt.  I don't agree with everything Mr Nesbitt says, but he seems more level-headed than most.  He is right that before geographic Ireland can unite as a single country (if that ever does happen), politicians need to work harder to make Northern Ireland work. In that respect, Sinn Fein's characterisation of Northern Ireland as a 'failed little statelet' is unhelpful and counter-productive to their own cause.  Also agree somewhat with his comments on the DUP.  They are regressive on issues such as the Irish language.  Disagree with him on broader cultural issues such as abortion and LGBT, etc. 

Link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umPLMK4MmSw

The main point I take from Mike Nesbitt is something I was already deeply convinced of: if a united Ireland is to happen, it must be organic and evolve out of the normal social, economic and political circumstances and aspirations of ordinary people over a very lengthy period of time, ideally decades from now, not right now.  It must not be imposed by embittered social crusaders with dogmatic agendas, especially the negative agenda of militant Irish Republicans who have burdened Ireland as a whole with a toxic legacy. 

I believe that legacy must be outgrown and become part of the history of these islands, rather than the present, before a united Ireland can be considered.  In particular, if a united Ireland does occur, it must be part of an affirmation of the unity and reconciliation of the British and Irish peoples; not a 'victory' or 'defeat' for anyone.  This attitude should inform the structure of relations between our ancient island nations.

[Roch]

For entertainment purposes, I can recommend Black '47.

[Roch]

QC I'd like to see you try this British / Irish stuff with this fella. It would be the silver medal for you on this occasion.. 

https://youtu.be/2pSGZt-mhSY

[guest29835]

He had better gird his loins.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-yZNMWFqvM

[guest29835]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lubFqUOb25c

[Steve_uk]

Thirty years since the Downing Street mortar attack (1991), the Baltic Exchange bombing (1992) and the Warrington bin bomb which killed two local boys (1993). https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/john-major-privately-admitted-ira-could-not-be-militarily-defeated-newly-released-1992-memo-reveals/ar-AASbXdP?ocid=msedgntp

[Steve_uk]

Would a majority of 1 in Northern Ireland be enough to take the province out of the United Kingdom? https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/miche%C3%A1l-martin-fires-united-ireland-warning-to-uk-over-brexiteer-s-demand-be-careful/ar-AA1j3aCx?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a4be31cd98cf4473983f19114707710d&ei=6

[Steve_uk]

As talented a politician as Mary-Lou McDonald undoubtedly is, I can't help wondering whether she has full control over Sinn Fein policy or whether the thugs of the IRA Council still exert control. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/a-sinn-fein-led-irish-government-would-deliver-step-change-in-irish-unity-push/ar-AA1m2Vil?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f97c925aecd04618bcc900ca45d2bae6&ei=8