Author Topic: Louis Theroux  (Read 40234 times)

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guest29835

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #435 on: October 04, 2021, 01:21:PM »
Please be assured that I am not unduly worried about anything at this moment in my life  :)

I have no idea why you appear to want to shoot the messenger.  I am simply stating how high the bar is set post trial/conviction.

I have no particular view on Bamber's guilt or innocence and I find the whole pigeonholing and taking sides here very infantile.  If those posting here wish to debate the case like adults they should expect to have their assumptions, views etc challenged and not take personal affront.

I completely agree that the pigeonholing is irritating and time-wasting, and also - in my opinion - suggests a poor understanding of the case because nobody (other than possibly, Jeremy) knows what occurred in the farmhouse that night.  I also agree that the Forum is for debating the case, not goading and personal attacks.

Some of us are trying to debate the case properly, but there are people who are allowed to post here who have 'issues', as you can quickly see, and a lot of time is wasted dealing with them.  Their intention is to keep the Forum small and obscure by putting people off joining and posting.  It is humanly difficult, I am sure you appreciate, to post here constructively and ignore the disruptive behaviour and inevitably it affects the culture of the Forum and we all suffer.

On the point you are making, as you know, the test for criminal appeals is that the conviction is unsafe or unsatisfactory.  That is a high bar, in all cases, simply because the appellant has usually been convicted by a jury.  I agree that, realistically, the more appeals submitted and rejected, the harder it becomes to overturn a conviction, simply because evidence is considered and seen to be rejected, but the test remains the same.  Jeremy does not have to prove he is innocent, only that the convictions cannot be sustained.

Whether what is required is a 'slam dunk' (whatever that means - it's colloquial language) or something more technical, I cannot say.  Nobody can say.  The Campaign Team serve an entirely different function to the lawyers and it is the lawyers who craft and make the submissions, not the campaigners and activists.  I take the view that anything the Campaign Team say needs to be taken with a proverbial pinch of salt, but that is no commentary on the overall strength or weakness of Jeremy's appeal.

We just don't know.  We have to wait.

Yes and it requires strong new evidence or argument underpinning it. 

For example no matter what comes to light about the windows its already redundant as the judge told the jury "cannot affect the outcome of the case".

Some here will be up in arms about the judge's comment, and probably the mere fact I have recited it, but this is the reality of the situation. 

The support people claim to have included this in the submission, presumably rubber stamped by the lawyer, but its a complete waste of time.

We don't know.  We have to wait.  The Commissioners and the appeal judges have latitude.  A lawyer once reminded me, when I was in the pit of hell, that only a fool would predict the outcome of litigation.  He was right.  People will say this and that, and something else happens.  The law is not black and white, or not as black and white as it appears.

Offline Roch

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #436 on: October 04, 2021, 01:24:PM »
Please be assured that I am not unduly worried about anything at this moment in my life  :)

I have no idea why you appear to want to shoot the messenger.  I am simply stating how high the bar is set post trial/conviction.

I have no particular view on Bamber's guilt or innocence and I find the whole pigeonholing and taking sides here very infantile.  If those posting here wish to debate the case like adults they should expect to have their assumptions, views etc challenged and not take personal affront.

I am merely responding to how you come across. To me, you appear to come across as somebody who would relish the probability that an impossibly high bar would be set, thereby ensuring failure for the defence. We have seen this kind of posting before, at similar times in JB's legal due process. Sorry, but you can only speak as you find.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #437 on: October 04, 2021, 01:26:PM »
I think CC has an awareness that 'unsafe' is subjective. In other words, should the CCRC set an extremely high bar as to what constitutes 'unsafe', then anything that falls short of that bar could be dismissed. However, a reason lay person with common sense may well judge the very same evidence as rendering the convictions unsafe.

Have you read the website?

Its taken as a given that everything that could have been adjudicated on at trial was.  That's really the time to throw the kitchen sink at it.  Once a jury reaches a verdict it is seen as sacrosanct and the courts are reluctant to interfere.  Obviously the system exists to right wrongful convictions.  But frankly having a bunch of amateur slueths and wannabe lawyers running the show is not helpful to Bamber. 

Offline Rob_

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #438 on: October 04, 2021, 01:26:PM »
The thing is Lookout, if they have these so called 'tests' and other jumping through hoops measurements before considering a referral, isn't it a bit subjective as to what's classed as 'new' evidence or evidence sufficient enough to warrant that the original jury would have decided differently. Who in their right mind would believe that the original jury would convict, given everything that's come to light since 1986?. Rivlin would have been armed to the teeth and would have no excuse to not defend JB properly (instead of as a '2nd prosecutor' as he was recently labelled).

But somebody can just say, no - we do not believe it would have made any difference.

Instead, we should get the original jury members or their descendants and present them with the material and guide them through it and then ask them - 'do you believe this would have made a difference in you or your relative reaching your / their verdict'?

With all the information we now have you would only had to convince just one more jury member to change the verdict, how anyone can just say "no - we do not believe it would have made any difference" is beyond me!

guest29835

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #439 on: October 04, 2021, 01:27:PM »
I think CC has an awareness that 'unsafe' is subjective. In other words, should the CCRC set an extremely high bar as to what constitutes 'unsafe', then anything that falls short of that bar could be dismissed. However, a reason lay person with common sense may well judge the very same evidence as rendering the convictions unsafe.

Of course, there is an element of subjectivity because it's a decision based on facts and their interpretation and on an overall view of what is right; but there you contradict yourself a bit.  If it's subjective, then we don't know.  I'd also rather see the evidence for myself before coming to any conclusion about whether what is claimed is crankish.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #440 on: October 04, 2021, 01:29:PM »
I am merely responding to how you come across. To me, you appear to come across as somebody who would relish the probability that an impossibly high bar would be set, thereby ensuring failure for the defence. We have seen this kind of posting before, at similar times in JB's legal due process. Sorry, but you can only speak as you find.

I am simply being realistic about Bamber's prospects based on a podcast put out by his supporters.  I believe I have given clear examples as to why the submission will fail.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #441 on: October 04, 2021, 01:31:PM »
We know for sure convictions are overturned.  Over the years there have been a number of high profile acquitals so the system does work when presented with the right material. 

Offline Roch

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #442 on: October 04, 2021, 01:37:PM »
Have you read the website?

Its taken as a given that everything that could have been adjudicated on at trial was.  That's really the time to throw the kitchen sink at it.  Once a jury reaches a verdict it is seen as sacrosanct and the courts are reluctant to interfere.  Obviously the system exists to right wrongful convictions.  But frankly having a bunch of amateur slueths and wannabe lawyers running the show is not helpful to Bamber.

Clearly, with a narrative controlled by a police force hell bent on non-disclosure; and a defence barrister unwilling to probe where he should have, not everything was adjudicated at trial. Which is why we are still here debating the case 35 years later.  If it takes 35 years to achieve 70% disclosure, how could the kitchen sink been thrown at it in October 1986? 

If the system set up to right wrongful convictions operated in a fit for purpose manner, then perhaps those amateur sleuths and wannabes (who are volunteers btw) could have moved on to something else. Don't get me wrong, I don't support everything they do or interpret. Far from it. 

Offline JackieD

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #443 on: October 04, 2021, 01:47:PM »
Let’s face it the Simon Hall case must have caused serious damage to genuine miscarriage of justice cases
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Roch

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #444 on: October 04, 2021, 01:55:PM »
I completely agree that the pigeonholing is irritating and time-wasting, and also - in my opinion - suggests a poor understanding of the case because nobody (other than possibly, Jeremy) knows what occurred in the farmhouse that night.  I also agree that the Forum is for debating the case, not goading and personal attacks.

Some of us are trying to debate the case properly, but there are people who are allowed to post here who have 'issues', as you can quickly see, and a lot of time is wasted dealing with them.  Their intention is to keep the Forum small and obscure by putting people off joining and posting.  It is humanly difficult, I am sure you appreciate, to post here constructively and ignore the disruptive behaviour and inevitably it affects the culture of the Forum and we all suffer.

If that is a criticism aimed at me, I think it's a bit harsh. Maybe not totally underserved but certainly excessive.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #445 on: October 04, 2021, 02:02:PM »
Clearly, with a narrative controlled by a police force hell bent on non-disclosure; and a defence barrister unwilling to probe where he should have, not everything was adjudicated at trial. Which is why we are still here debating the case 35 years later.  If it takes 35 years to achieve 70% disclosure, how could the kitchen sink been thrown at it in October 1986? 

If the system set up to right wrongful convictions operated in a fit for purpose manner, then perhaps those amateur sleuths and wannabes (who are volunteers btw) could have moved on to something else. Don't get me wrong, I don't support everything they do or interpret. Far from it.

What do you believe has been disclosed since trial that might have affected the outcome?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 02:02:PM by Cambridgecutie »

Offline Roch

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #446 on: October 04, 2021, 02:05:PM »
What do you believe has been disclosed since trial that might have affected the outcome?

Let's reverse that. Why don't you tell us what has been disclosed since trial that wouldn't have affected the outcome at trial.

Offline Roch

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #447 on: October 04, 2021, 02:11:PM »
And btw, I don't agree with you about the windows. When you say the judge made the remark regarding how he did or how did not get or out... At which point in the trial was this remark made?

Offline killingeve

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #448 on: October 04, 2021, 02:11:PM »
Let's reverse that. Why don't you tell us what has been disclosed since trial that wouldn't have affected the outcome at trial.

Nothing up until now hence Bamber is still behind bars. 


Offline killingeve

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #449 on: October 04, 2021, 02:15:PM »
And btw, I don't agree with you about the windows. When you say the judge made the remark regarding how he did or how did not get or out... At which point in the trial was this remark made?

Page 10E.

Point 286 of 2001 appeal document.