Louis Theroux

[lookout]

Are you not aware of Sheila's blood & the aga paint on/in the silencer?

Planted.

[Rob_]

My scenario has the twins being shot first. Once each.

Nevill was shot 6 times in the head and face. There was blood in the kitchen, where he died.

You had June being shot first then Nevil in the main bedroom, that would not happen, your scenario is a non starter I am afraid. 

[Adam]

Leaving a silencer next to Sheila negates the crazy massacre theory.

After killing everyone in a crazed rage, Sheila would have had to calmly remove the silencer prior to shooting herself.

People may also ask if Sheila knew how to remove the silencer.

Bamber was going back downstairs. Why not take the silencer with him?

[guest29835]

87.

Thereafter Sheila Caffell received monthly injections of Haloperidol, a drug used to treat agitated states which had anti-psychotic and tranquillising properties. It also has sedative side effects at the levels prescribed

That does not say Sheila was sedated and it does not mean that. 

It's like saying that if a cough medicine has side effects of headaches, that means if I take the cough medicine I am going to suffer headaches.  It doesn't follow.

[lookout]

You had June being shot first then Nevil in the main bedroom, that would not happen, your scenario is a non starter I am afraid. 

Take no notice Rob.

[Steve_uk]

I think it's the other way round.  First, if Sheila had already started shooting and/or wounded somebody and Nevill had managed to seize the rifle from her, the police would have been called and the incident would have ended there and then, so the issue of blood traces would have been moot.  If Sheila was the killer, then she must have caught Nevill off-guard somehow or escaped from him. 

Second, Nevill (and/or June) would not have just moved the silencer.  They would have moved the rifle.  Furthermore, if we imagine a scenario in which, after Jeremy leaves, Nevill has returned the rifle to the gun cupboard, then a factor to consider is that the gun cupboard was supposed to be locked and secured per the conditions of Nevill's firearms certificate but wasn't.  It wasn't even lockable, despite Nevill's arangements having been inspected by an Essex police officer a few months before.  This can clearly be seen in the photographs.  This means there was no way for Nevill (or Jeremy himself) to secure the firearms against Sheila or a third party intruder.

I believe it follows from all this that:

(i). in an alternate scenario in which Sheila is the killer, there cannot have been any immediate prior incident in which Sheila used or threatened to use the rifle, which means that Sheila did not enter the den that night, and Sheila must have gone downstairs and into the back corridor alone. Sheila would not then detach the silencer prior to shooting the family.  She would simply pick up and use the rifle with it left on.  This, I believe, explains Rivlin's defence strategy; and,

(ii). logically, only two people could have detached the silencer and replaced it in the gun cupboard prior to the incident: Jeremy or Sheila.  If the killer was Sheila, that means either there was a long pause before her suicide, or an innocent Jeremy had detached the silencer at some prior point.  Conversely, if the killer was Jeremy, then he has somehow managed to leave the silencer in the cupboard without leaving any transferred blood traces anywhere.

With the luxury of hindsight we can see that a different conclusion is possible to that of Rivlin, which is that the silencer was taken off the rifle by Jeremy before he even returned to the farmhouse and witnessed the family meeting in the kitchen.  He did not take the silencer off the rifle only at that point, but some time before then, maybe days before, maybe earlier that day, who knows?  He probably can't remember himself.  The significance of the point is that it allows the possibility of the silencer being found by somebody after the shootings and maliciously or mistakenly entering it into evidence against Jeremy. 

To my mind, Jeremy's story of him shooting [at] rabbits just prior to leaving for home supports his claim that the rifle did not already have the silencer on it, implying that the silencer has been removed at some undetermined point prior to that.  He would not have gone out and started shooting [at] rabbits with the silencer on, as this would not have scared off the rabbits.  I do think he was shooting at the rabbits more than shooting the rabbits - if you see the distinction.  You don't use a rifle like that just to shoot one rabbit after another.  It's not possible.  Anybody familiar with these firearms will, I hope, concur with me on that point.

..and any rational studier of the White House Farm murders knows a rabbit cock and bull story when they see it.

[Adam]

You had June being shot first then Nevil in the main bedroom, that would not happen, your scenario is a non starter I am afraid. 

The shots were from June's side of the bed.

Five shots into a sleeping June. Four shots into Nevill.

As the evidence states.

How are getting on with your 34 flaws. Or are you not bothered?

[guest29835]

..and any rational studier of the White House Farm murders knows a rabbit cock and bull story when they see it.

Aesop?

[Steve_uk]

Adam and other pro-guilt people rely on the supposed sedative effects of Haliperidol.  Adam frequently misquotes, or misattributes, the 2002 appeal judgment in this regard.

..and serious studiers of the White House Farm murders are cognizant of Sheila's physical as well as mental state.

[Adam]

That does not say Sheila was sedated and it does not mean that. 

It's like saying that if a cough medicine has side effects of headaches, that means if I take the cough medicine I am going to suffer headaches.  It doesn't follow.

Do you believe Bamber would not be able to move Sheila a few feet?

He had just shot & brutally beaten a 6.4, 15 stone man.

Sheila was Haloperidol. So almost certainly sedated. Bamber had checked on her at supper.

[guest29835]

You had June being shot first then Nevil in the main bedroom, that would not happen, your scenario is a non starter I am afraid. 

Surely you can't mean this, Rob.  Adam is the leading scenario writer on the Forum, perhaps in the entire Pantheon of true crime writers.  The way Adam crafts his scenarios leaves most of us in awe.  His work is superlative.  Even Jeremy himself shivers at the mention of Adam's name, and the appeal judges hang on his every word.

[Steve_uk]

Do you have a source she was sedated? I thought this was the only way JB could have shot Sheila when I watched the WHF series but the toxicological tests came back negative?

She was exhausted with activity of the previous days, not necessarily with the Haloperidol, of which trace amounts were found in her system.

[guest29835]

Do you believe Bamber would not be able to move Sheila a few feet?

He had just shot & brutally beaten a 6.4 15 stone man.

Sheila was Haloperidol. So almost certainly sedated. Bamber had checked on her at supper.

You've changed your tune from:

Sheila was sedated

to:

Sheila was almost certainly sedated.

It's progress, I suppose, but the point is we don't know that Sheila was sedated.

Also - and maybe more importantly - sedation is a term of art, whereas most use the term non-technically.  Being sedated does not mean Sheila can be eliminated as a suspect.

[guest29835]

She was exhausted with activity of the previous days, not necessarily with the Haloperidol, of which trace amounts were found in her system.

Jeremy was exhausted with working on the farm, was he not?  Yet I would not suggest that this means Jeremy is innocent.  It's a weak argument.

[Adam]

Surely you can't mean this, Rob.  Adam is the leading scenario writer on the Forum, perhaps in the entire Pantheon of true crime writers.  The way Adam crafts his scenarios leaves most of us in awe.  His work is superlative.  Even Jeremy himself shivers at the mention of Adam's name, and the appeal judges hang on his every word.

A pity your two Sheila alledged scenarios I can't find.

Rob at least tried. But failed to defend 34 flaws. So his scenario is dismissed.

He needs to re submit but says not being able to explain how Sheila committed the massacre is not important.