Author Topic: Louis Theroux  (Read 40165 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #270 on: October 02, 2021, 02:54:PM »
To trawl over old ground, targeting the gullible.






Gullible I'm not Steve, never have been and never will be.

guest29835

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #271 on: October 02, 2021, 03:04:PM »
I find it very hard to believe JB would have left the silencer in the gun cupboard, and if he did he had every opportunity to cover his tracks. He must have assumed the police would do a thorough search and find it?

Simply leaving it by the body or as you say just taking it away would be the obvious thing to do?

But what also troubles me is how did he get Sheila to just lie down and take the shot?

I too find it hard to believe.  The gun cupboard is in Nevill's den.  If you look at photographs of the den, you'll see the carpet is a cream or cork colour and immaculate.  How did Jeremy manage to negotiate that carpet without leaving blood?  And there was no blood in the gun cupboard except on the silencer itself.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #272 on: October 02, 2021, 03:07:PM »
I too find it hard to believe.  The gun cupboard is in Nevill's den.  If you look at photographs of the den, you'll see the carpet is a cream or cork colour and immaculate.  How did Jeremy manage to negotiate that carpet without leaving blood?  And there was no blood in the gun cupboard except on the silencer itself.
Please post the picture.

Offline lookout

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #273 on: October 02, 2021, 03:12:PM »
Even if it had been inadvertently placed there by either June or Nevill during a fracas in the kitchen between the three of them I'm sure there'd have been blood elsewhere while this task was carried out. It's not impossible that either parent could have put it out of harms way of Sheila doing more damage.

We just don't know. Nobody does.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #274 on: October 02, 2021, 03:15:PM »
I find it very hard to believe JB would have left the silencer in the gun cupboard, and if he did he had every opportunity to cover his tracks. He must have assumed the police would do a thorough search and find it?

Simply leaving it by the body or as you say just taking it away would be the obvious thing to do?

But what also troubles me is how did he get Sheila to just lie down and take the shot?

Why?

The silencer was not part of the crime scene. It was in a box at the back of the gun cupboard.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #275 on: October 02, 2021, 03:20:PM »
I don't understand this? she had a rifle.

Nevill would have negated the situation straight away. While fully fit. He had an early start on the farm.

Phoning Bamber & the 6th furthest away police station 😀
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #276 on: October 02, 2021, 03:24:PM »
My issue with James Richards is that he was supposed to be a witness for the prosecution, and maybe I am being old-fashioned, but I think at least in public he should be careful to ensure he is presented in that way, not as a 'friend of Julie Mugford'.  I appreciate he shared digs with her, or something like that, but if he is a friend of Julie Mugford, then that makes him look partisan, and implies he is her spokesman and that his involvement in the documentary is to stick up for her.  To me, there is just something about it that doesn't sit right.

I forgot to mention the appearance of the appeal judge, but hasn't he retired?  I think that should have been made clear.  A lot of viewers will have come away with the mistaken impression that he was giving the view of the judiciary.  The 2002 appeal judgment was flawed and that view should have been covered, but the scope of the documentary was too wide and they were trying to hit too many topics.

'PC Saxby remained in the patrol car' - that may well be, but you underestimate the verbal agility of Christopher Bews.  He is unmatched.

My pet theory about the silencer is, briefly, that at least two of them were examined by the FSS, and one was returned to the Eatons after undergoing chemical treatment for fingerprinting purposes.  David Boutflour has then handled this, or seen it, and confused one with the other in his own mind.  On the other hand, I accept that it is possible a guilty Jeremy would miss the 'stickiness', etc., of the silencer if he was wearing gloves, and he could also miss a hair. 

Yet then you have to ask yourself this: How and in what way and to what extent did he clean the silencer, if at all?  If we're saying he didn't clean it because all he was doing was moving it out of the way so that it would not be found, you then have to ask:

(i). Would Jeremy be that stupid in assuming that the police would not search the place in the house dedicated to the storage of firearms and paraphernalia?  He is supposed to have planned this.

(ii). Why wouldn't Jeremy just take the silencer away with him?  Even if it's absence would be noticed and seen as suspicious, he would never have been convicted on that basis.

(iii). Why didn't Jeremy return to clean the silencer properly?  Why did he allow the relatives keys to the house instead?

(iv). If Jeremy took himself and the silencer to the gun cupboard, why wasn't blood found on the floor of the back corridor, Nevill's den and in the gun cupboard itself?

I could go on with the problems.  Really, Jeremy's actions don't make a lot of sense if we accept the official narrative.  It's a bit of paradox to say that Jeremy is cold and calculating enough to stage a phone call and put on an act with the police, relatives and at the funeral and in other respects, but at the same time, he would not take care of incriminating evidence.  Maybe he was just reckless and arrogant and thought he had got away with it?  But this is looking at things backwards.  At the point he could have disposed of the silencer, he did not know that he had got away with it.  I also have issues with the blood patterning found within the silencer.  There's also the problem with the drawback theory that the silencer evidence depends on.  And there's the questions about the chain-of-custody of the silencer.

I was a bit harsh in my post in regard to Barbara Wilson.  I expressed it clumsily.  I said her evidence seemed pointless, but that's not correct because she did report her telephone conversation with Nevill.  I suppose I have a prejudice about her because she seems like a typical gossipy village woman with some sort of grudge against Jeremy, but she is allowed to give her impressions of the people involved, etc; and, to be fair, it may well be that she had more to say that was edited out but if included would make her seem more balanced in her views about Jeremy.

Bamber committed the crime with silencer attached. Which makes sense.

He took it off & put it away afterwards.

All straight forward.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #277 on: October 02, 2021, 03:27:PM »
As a suspect, the last thing you'd do is hand over the keys to a property in which you've supposedly slaughtered a family in quick succession and departed it as was without a backward glance

Stan Jones gave AE the keys. He asked her to do a tidy up.

Bamber was on one of his jolly ups.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #278 on: October 02, 2021, 03:29:PM »




If only it had been proven that he entered/exited in this way  ???

CCTV was not at WHF.

However the housekeeper said the sink tidy underneath the kitchen window had been moved that night.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #279 on: October 02, 2021, 03:30:PM »




The thing which has bugged me from the start was why no temperatures were ever taken of the deceased. I'm 100% certain that had this simple procedure been carried out----as it should have been, that the murderer would have been within and not sitting outside in a police car.
This should have been the very first thing that should have taken place before anything else. Any police doctor knows this.

Obviously not police protocol in 1985. Not sure if it is now.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #280 on: October 02, 2021, 03:33:PM »
I find it very hard to believe JB would have left the silencer in the gun cupboard, and if he did he had every opportunity to cover his tracks. He must have assumed the police would do a thorough search and find it?

Simply leaving it by the body or as you say just taking it away would be the obvious thing to do?

But what also troubles me is how did he get Sheila to just lie down and take the shot?

Because Sheila was sedated, half asleep & not as strong as Bamber.

She would have also recognised & trusted Bamber. If not too sedated.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #281 on: October 02, 2021, 03:41:PM »
Even if it had been inadvertently placed there by either June or Nevill during a fracas in the kitchen between the three of them I'm sure there'd have been blood elsewhere while this task was carried out. It's not impossible that either parent could have put it out of harms way of Sheila doing more damage.

We just don't know. Nobody does.

I think it's the other way round.  First, if Sheila had already started shooting and/or wounded somebody and Nevill had managed to seize the rifle from her, the police would have been called and the incident would have ended there and then, so the issue of blood traces would have been moot.  If Sheila was the killer, then she must have caught Nevill off-guard somehow or escaped from him. 

Second, Nevill (and/or June) would not have just moved the silencer.  They would have moved the rifle.  Furthermore, if we imagine a scenario in which, after Jeremy leaves, Nevill has returned the rifle to the gun cupboard, then a factor to consider is that the gun cupboard was supposed to be locked and secured per the conditions of Nevill's firearms certificate but wasn't.  It wasn't even lockable, despite Nevill's arangements having been inspected by an Essex police officer a few months before.  This can clearly be seen in the photographs.  This means there was no way for Nevill (or Jeremy himself) to secure the firearms against Sheila or a third party intruder.

I believe it follows from all this that:

(i). in an alternate scenario in which Sheila is the killer, there cannot have been any immediate prior incident in which Sheila used or threatened to use the rifle, which means that Sheila did not enter the den that night, and Sheila must have gone downstairs and into the back corridor alone. Sheila would not then detach the silencer prior to shooting the family.  She would simply pick up and use the rifle with it left on.  This, I believe, explains Rivlin's defence strategy; and,

(ii). logically, only two people could have detached the silencer and replaced it in the gun cupboard prior to the incident: Jeremy or Sheila.  If the killer was Sheila, that means either there was a long pause before her suicide, or an innocent Jeremy had detached the silencer at some prior point.  Conversely, if the killer was Jeremy, then he has somehow managed to leave the silencer in the cupboard without leaving any transferred blood traces anywhere.

With the luxury of hindsight we can see that a different conclusion is possible to that of Rivlin, which is that the silencer was taken off the rifle by Jeremy before he even returned to the farmhouse and witnessed the family meeting in the kitchen.  He did not take the silencer off the rifle only at that point, but some time before then, maybe days before, maybe earlier that day, who knows?  He probably can't remember himself.  The significance of the point is that it allows the possibility of the silencer being found by somebody after the shootings and maliciously or mistakenly entering it into evidence against Jeremy. 

To my mind, Jeremy's story of him shooting [at] rabbits just prior to leaving for home supports his claim that the rifle did not already have the silencer on it, implying that the silencer has been removed at some undetermined point prior to that.  He would not have gone out and started shooting [at] rabbits with the silencer on, as this would not have scared off the rabbits.  I do think he was shooting at the rabbits more than shooting the rabbits - if you see the distinction.  You don't use a rifle like that just to shoot one rabbit after another.  It's not possible.  Anybody familiar with these firearms will, I hope, concur with me on that point.

Offline Adam

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #282 on: October 02, 2021, 03:42:PM »
Everyone agrees Bamber would use a silencer to commit the massacre.

He then had three choices -

Take it off & leave it next to Sheila.

Take it off & take it with him.

Take it off & put it away out of sight.

---------

He chose the last option.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 03:42:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Rob_

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #283 on: October 02, 2021, 03:47:PM »
Because Sheila was sedated, half asleep & not as strong as Bamber.

She would have also recognised & trusted Bamber. If not too sedated.

Do you have a source she was sedated? I thought this was the only way JB could have shot Sheila when I watched the WHF series but the toxicological tests came back negative?

« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 03:47:PM by Rob_ »

guest29835

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Re: Louis Theroux
« Reply #284 on: October 02, 2021, 03:48:PM »
Bamber committed the crime with silencer attached. Which makes sense.

He took it off & put it away afterwards.

All straight forward.

Thanks Adam.  I honestly don't know why we bother with this Forum as you've done all the spade work already and worked everything out.  Even Rob has given up the ghost.  I think when the history books come to be written, you will be remembered as a dynamic influence on the case and the man who slayed the dragon of the Jeremy Bamber Innocence Campaign.

Mind you, I'm still sulking that you didn't recommend me for the CT.  It's bad enough that Myster won't let me participate in his Cluedo Club (even Steve backs me on this).