Author Topic: THE SILENCER SAGA  (Read 68103 times)

0 Members and 30 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Rob_

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4790
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #150 on: August 25, 2021, 08:49:PM »
Nicholas Caffell suffered two contact shots. Had the silencer been used, one would expect to find bone fragments and "organic debris" (such as brain tissue?) and DNA inside the moderator. Yet there is none.

"Test shots on live pigs destined for slaughter showed that bone particles are a feature of backspatter from close-range shots to heads. Contamination of nearby surfaces by bone fragments and bone-plus-bullet fragments, as well as other organic debris, appears to be quite heavy."
"Detection of Bone and Bone-Plus-Bullet Particles in Backspatter from Close-Range Shots to Heads," Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 36, No. 6, 1991, pp. 1745-1752,

Thanks for the info and link Dave, though in a contact head shot is it back spatter or the fact that blood from this part of the body will gush out? Though either way the silencer will get covered in blood.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13705
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #151 on: August 25, 2021, 09:16:PM »
Thanks for the info and link Dave, though in a contact head shot is it back spatter or the fact that blood from this part of the body will gush out? Though either way the silencer will get covered in blood.

The illustration below and the link below might be of interest to you.



http://l-a-c.expert/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Backspatter_Simulation_Comparison_of_a_Basic_Sponge_and_a_Complex_Model.pdf
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 09:18:PM by David1819 »

Offline Bubo bubo

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3331
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #152 on: October 18, 2021, 04:39:PM »
The Crowns case against JB was based on the premise, amongst other issues, that there was only one silencer (SM) found by the family on10/08/85
.
The Police did however seize a SM on the 07/08/85. It was found/collected by David Bird (DB) and was labelled DB1. When the decision was taken that JB would be framed all paperwork associated with this find had to be manipulated to make it disappear from the record.

They created a second witness statement for DB showing that he collected his samples on the 10th and 11th of September. In his first statement dated 24/10,85 which was presumably used at trial it shows that he collected only the socks DB6 on the 11/09/85.

We know he found more items because he submitted a second forged statement to the COLP enquiry. In which he describes finding DB1-DB7. However, DB1 is now a soil sample. You can read a fuller account on this thread.

THE SILENCER SAGA (jeremybamberforum.co.uk) reply 64

Both his statements are forgeries. The socks are shown in crime scene photos. On the Wednesday after the tragedy with JB’s approval all carpets and bedding were destroyed. What happened to the socks if they had not been collected and bagged by SOCO?

At the next weekend JB burnt his parent’s clothes. What happened to the socks if they had not been forensically gathered?

They had hidden the finding using the method described.

That was not the only problem. DB passed the buck by suggesting that if he found anything he would hand it to DRH and PC Davidson. Later the COLP questioned DRH who broke down exclaiming ‘I did not find It’. They may well have tampered with CID6 forms and Holab3 forms as the interview with DB suggests.

The DB interview is on the forum but be warned it is long and detailed. It has its own thread.

David Bird COLP Statement 8th Oct 1991 (jeremybamberforum.co.uk)

The Hamersley piece is in the library.

Breakdown of DC Hammersley (SOC) - when seen by COLP... (jeremybamberforum.co.uk)

In the end they went for a simpler fix. They pretended that SJ handed it to RC after returning to the crime scene from JB’s cottage to collect it.

I agree with NGB’s SM count but the two that mattered were the DB1 find and the finding of DRB1 on 10/08/85. I do not dispute that the family passed a SM to the police but have severe reservations as to the date.

If the DB1 find is as I suggest then the Crowns case falls because it calls into question the provenance and validity of the SM found by the family. The case falls if it is proved there were not one but 2 SM’s at the beginning of the case.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 08:08:PM by Bubo bubo »

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #153 on: October 18, 2021, 05:21:PM »
Thanks for the info and link Dave, though in a contact head shot is it back spatter or the fact that blood from this part of the body will gush out? Though either way the silencer will get covered in blood.

Have you or anyone  else any evidence for this?

« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 05:31:PM by Cambridgecutie »

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #154 on: October 18, 2021, 05:49:PM »
The illustration below and the link below might be of interest to you.



http://l-a-c.expert/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Backspatter_Simulation_Comparison_of_a_Basic_Sponge_and_a_Complex_Model.pdf

This doesn't feature a silencer plus its a completely different animal to that used in the Bamber case.

Have you anything that shows a silecer is capable of 'drawback' as described by Malcolm Fletcher at trial?

Offline Rob_

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4790
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #155 on: October 18, 2021, 09:36:PM »
Have you or anyone  else any evidence for this?

Well a head shot at close range will not need back spatter to cover the end of the barrel in blood in my view anyway. There used to be a video on YouTube I believe of a guy being shot in the Vietnam war with a revolver, I don't know if it's still there but if you see it you will know what I mean.

I don't want to search for it so don't ask for a link, with a .22 the effect may be less?

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #156 on: October 19, 2021, 09:45:AM »
Well a head shot at close range will not need back spatter to cover the end of the barrel in blood in my view anyway. There used to be a video on YouTube I believe of a guy being shot in the Vietnam war with a revolver, I don't know if it's still there but if you see it you will know what I mean.

I don't want to search for it so don't ask for a link, with a .22 the effect may be less?

I believe the forensic literature shows that when individuals commit suicide by placing firearms in contact with the head a high % do not result in blood in or outside the barrel.  But in this case we are not talking about the barrel in contact with any part of the body we are talking about a silencer!

Offline Bubo bubo

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3331
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #157 on: October 19, 2021, 12:46:PM »
The Crowns case against JB was based on the premise, amongst other issues, that there was only one silencer (SM) found by the family on10/07/85
.
The Police did however seize a SM on the 07/08/85. It was found/collected by David Bird (DB) and was labelled DB1. When the decision was taken that JB would be framed all paperwork associated with this find had to be manipulated to make it disappear from the record.

They created a second witness statement for DB showing that he collected his samples on the 10th and 11th of September. In his first statement dated 24/10,85 which was presumably used at trial it shows that he collected only the socks DB6 on the 11/09/85.

We know he found more items because he submitted a second forged statement to the COLP enquiry. In which he describes finding DB1-DB7. However, DB1 is now a soil sample. You can read a fuller account on this thread.

THE SILENCER SAGA (jeremybamberforum.co.uk) reply 64

Both his statements are forgeries. The socks are shown in crime scene photos. On the Wednesday after the tragedy with JB’s approval all carpets and bedding were destroyed. What happened to the socks if they had not been collected and bagged by SOCO?

At the next weekend JB burnt his parent’s clothes. What happened to the socks if they had not been forensically gathered?

They had hidden the finding using the method described.

That was not the only problem. DB passed the buck by suggesting that if he found anything he would hand it to DRH and PC Davidson. Later the COLP questioned DRH who broke down exclaiming ‘I did not find It’. They may well have tampered with CID6 forms and Holab3 forms as the interview with DB suggests.

The DB interview is on the forum but be warned it is long and detailed. It has its own thread.

David Bird COLP Statement 8th Oct 1991 (jeremybamberforum.co.uk)

The Hamersley piece is in the library.

Breakdown of DC Hammersley (SOC) - when seen by COLP... (jeremybamberforum.co.uk)

In the end they went for a simpler fix. They pretended that SJ handed it to RC after returning to the crime scene from JB’s cottage to collect it.

I agree with NGB’s SM count but the two that mattered were the DB1 find and the finding of DRB1 on 10/08/85. I do not dispute that the family passed a SM to the police but have severe reservations as to the date.

If the DB1 find is as I suggest then the Crowns case falls because it calls into question the provenance and validity of the SM found by the family. The case falls if it is proved there were not one but 2 SM’s at the beginning of the case.

John Haywards specimen testing list shows he received DB1 on 12/08/85. However, all the other items collected DB2-DB6 arrived on the 20/08/85. Why is there no DB1 soil sample in the group? DB7 was Tampons and were of no evidential value, so were not sent.

It is pretty obvious that if they wished to claim DB1 should be DRB1 that it had to have been discovered before 12/08/85 in order that it could reach the lab by the date stated. I have seen no reference to a soil sample in my research of the case but we do not have all the paperwork and I may have missed it.

If anyone knows of evidence that shows DB1 soil sample, was sent for testing please post the find.

If there is no record of it being sent to the lab, why was it sampled or was it just a convenient substitute for the silencer DB1.

Offline Rob_

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4790
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #158 on: October 19, 2021, 01:07:PM »
I believe the forensic literature shows that when individuals commit suicide by placing firearms in contact with the head a high % do not result in blood in or outside the barrel.  But in this case we are not talking about the barrel in contact with any part of the body we are talking about a silencer!

Yes but I was referring to a killer holding the gun, he would not immediately real back, like in a suicide. I would expect blood over the end of and inside the barrel or silencer if fitted in a contact shot? Not a tiny blob?

I am no expert but as I said I have seen head shots and it's not like in the films.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 01:14:PM by Rob_ »

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44120
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #159 on: October 19, 2021, 01:48:PM »
The CT accept it is human blood which matches Sheila's in the silencer.

So they have to explain it. Result - RB put his own blood into the silencer!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 01:48:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44120
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #160 on: October 19, 2021, 01:54:PM »
The CT team accept the paint on the silencer is from the aga. Assume they are saying the relatives scratched it.

The crime scene photos are inconclusive although the CT paid Sutherst to say the right things. If they did show an unscratched aga, Bamber would have been released.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 01:56:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48661
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #161 on: October 19, 2021, 02:01:PM »
The DNA from within silencer DB1 was not that of Sheila. This was a letter sent from Dr. Clayton senior forensic scientist to the CCRC  in 2001.
The test was taken from Sheila's natural mother, Christine Jay and in reply, Dr. Clayton had said " in my opinion, the DNA cannot be from Sheila Bamber ".

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48661
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #162 on: October 19, 2021, 02:04:PM »
So whose, if any, did the DNA come from ? Another answer we don't know and probably won't get to know.

Offline Rob_

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4790
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #163 on: October 19, 2021, 02:18:PM »
The DNA from within silencer DB1 was not that of Sheila. This was a letter sent from Dr. Clayton senior forensic scientist to the CCRC  in 2001.
The test was taken from Sheila's natural mother, Christine Jay and in reply, Dr. Clayton had said " in my opinion, the DNA cannot be from Sheila Bamber ".

Thanks Lookout I never knew this.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44120
Re: THE SILENCER SAGA
« Reply #164 on: October 19, 2021, 02:19:PM »
The CT have not disputed any of the other evidence.

Some consulation for RB.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.