Julie Mugford - the (lying) Criminal, exposed...

[mb1]

The shots to the children - surely the MOST emotive for a Mother - were the MOST controlled.
Could Sheila have calmly put a shot in the back of the head, moving closer as that 'arc' was created? Then repeated it with the second child?

According to the family, Sheila had bad co-ordination. Would mania have improved this? Plus she didn't know one end of a gun from another, having never been known to shoot in her adult life.

The clinical nature of the children's death doesn't tie in with a mother on the rampage, trying to rid her children of the devil (her earlier preoccupation).

Yes, on paper, any of us are capable, but...

[Ajax]

The shots to the children - surely the MOST emotive for a Mother - were the MOST controlled.
Could Sheila have calmly put a shot in the back of the head, moving closer as that 'arc' was created? Then repeated it with the second child?

According to the family, Sheila had bad co-ordination. Would mania have improved this? Plus she didn't know one end of a gun from another, having never been known to shoot in her adult life.

The clinical nature of the children's death doesn't tie in with a mother on the rampage, trying to rid her children of the devil (her earlier preoccupation).






Yes, on paper, any of us are capable, but...

This troubles me too. I could almost see Sheila capable of pulling the trigger of a pre-loaded gun, but to have the knowledge of how to take off the magazine, reload and reinstate, then re-cock the mechanism to fire again? I can't see it if she had no experience with guns beforehand.

[Kaldin]

What does "arc" mean in this context?

[Jackiepreece]

I am still struggling to believe the stories of Julie mugford

Let's just say she was telling the truth (and to confirm once again I do not believe her) Julie mugford apparently knew the murders were happening weeks before the event she knew about the murders the morning of the event and she believed Jeremy was responsible for the murders after they happened (it would be a billion to one Jeremy didn't carry out the murders if he had told her before on that morning). She showed no guilt in that month after.  No body could pull that off.  She faced no charges although her actions would almost definately stopped the police having the forensic evidence to prove conclusively how the family died. She was given immunity and became a teacher with children in Canada.  My believe is the police knew she was lieing all along or she would never have been allowed to teach.  She perverted the course of justice in 5 murders compared to another famous face Maxine Carr who perverted the course of justice in two murders.  Can someone explain why she was not charged please



Maxine Ann Carr
Born   16 February 1977 (age 33)
Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England
Conviction(s)   Perverting the course of justice, Benefit fraud & Deception
Penalty   42 months imprisonment & 36 month rehabilitation order
Status   Released
Occupation   Teaching assistant
[edit]Maxine Carr
Maxine Carr had initially provided a false alibi to police for Huntley, claiming to be with him at the time of the murders when she was actually in Grimsby. She was charged with perverting the course of justice and assisting an offender. She pleaded guilty to the first charge and not guilty to the second.
Her failure to expose Huntley's lies in the early stages of the investigation (before either of them was arrested) meant that police initially eliminated Huntley as a suspect. The police who investigated the disappearance and murder of the two girls later said they would have quickly established that Ian Huntley was the abductor (and ultimately the murderer) of the two girls had Maxine Carr told the truth about their whereabouts at the time the girls went missing. But, due to her lies, the police were left waiting nearly two weeks before finally being able to arrest and charge him[14]
The court accepted that Carr had only lied to the police to protect Huntley because she believed his claims of innocence and so found her not guilty of assisting an offender. She was sentenced to three and a half years in prison and was released on probation on 14 May 2004 after serving 21 months (including 16 months on remand). She was given a new secret identity to protect her from threats of attack from members of the public that had been made during her remand, as well as during and after the trial.

[simong]

What does "arc" mean in this context?

I thought in was in a semi-circle or curve. That was from Daniels exit wound diagram that mike posted though.

[mb1]

What does "arc" mean in this context?

I thought in was in a semi-circle or curve. That was from Daniels exit wound diagram that mike posted though.

Afraid I can't bring myself to look at the stuff of the children - I'm going from text in court papers/appeals.

'Arc' also means each bullet makes its own entry - creates it's own wound, path and damage. The evidence is the killer moved closer, while shooting, as the damage was done in quick succession - not a shot and come back later. Moving and shooting precisely is skilled. Standing still and shooting accurately is pretty skilled. Shooting quickly is an acquired skill - as anyone who occasionally goes on a clay shoot will know.

[Kaldin]

What does "arc" mean in this context?

I thought in was in a semi-circle or curve. That was from Daniels exit wound diagram that mike posted though.

How does one shoot in a curve? Excuse my ignorance about such things.

[Kaldin]

I am still struggling to believe the stories of Julie mugford

Let's just say she was telling the truth (and to confirm once again I do not believe her) Julie mugford apparently knew the murders were happening weeks before the event she knew about the murders the morning of the event and she believed Jeremy was responsible for the murders after they happened (it would be a billion to one Jeremy didn't carry out the murders if he had told her before on that morning). She showed no guilt in that month after.  No body could pull that off.  She faced no charges although her actions would almost definately stopped the police having the forensic evidence to prove conclusively how the family died. She was given immunity and became a teacher with children in Canada.  My believe is the police knew she was lieing all along or she would never have been allowed to teach.  She perverted the course of justice in 5 murders compared to another famous face Maxine Carr who perverted the course of justice in two murders.  Can someone explain why she was not charged please



Maxine Ann Carr
Born   16 February 1977 (age 33)
Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England
Conviction(s)   Perverting the course of justice, Benefit fraud & Deception
Penalty   42 months imprisonment & 36 month rehabilitation order
Status   Released
Occupation   Teaching assistant
[edit]Maxine Carr
Maxine Carr had initially provided a false alibi to police for Huntley, claiming to be with him at the time of the murders when she was actually in Grimsby. She was charged with perverting the course of justice and assisting an offender. She pleaded guilty to the first charge and not guilty to the second.
Her failure to expose Huntley's lies in the early stages of the investigation (before either of them was arrested) meant that police initially eliminated Huntley as a suspect. The police who investigated the disappearance and murder of the two girls later said they would have quickly established that Ian Huntley was the abductor (and ultimately the murderer) of the two girls had Maxine Carr told the truth about their whereabouts at the time the girls went missing. But, due to her lies, the police were left waiting nearly two weeks before finally being able to arrest and charge him[14]
The court accepted that Carr had only lied to the police to protect Huntley because she believed his claims of innocence and so found her not guilty of assisting an offender. She was sentenced to three and a half years in prison and was released on probation on 14 May 2004 after serving 21 months (including 16 months on remand). She was given a new secret identity to protect her from threats of attack from members of the public that had been made during her remand, as well as during and after the trial.

Hello Jackie. I know you've brought up the issue of Maxine Carr before, and I have to say I agree with you. Maxine said she was at the house when she wasn't, which was a lie, but she didn't cover up for Huntley knowingly - she was found not guilty of that. She didn't provide a false alibi as such, she just said she was there. She has been reviled by many people for that to the extent that she has to hide her identity now.

Julie Mugford did a similar thing in some ways - worse really as she claimed that she knew Jeremy had done it, and yet I've seen nothing about her getting a hard time in the press or from the police or general public. She was not prosecuted for any of it. One could say that the prosecution needed her as a witness, but then Maxine Carr also testified against Huntley and was not given immunity.

[Kaldin]

What does "arc" mean in this context?

I thought in was in a semi-circle or curve. That was from Daniels exit wound diagram that mike posted though.

Afraid I can't bring myself to look at the stuff of the children - I'm going from text in court papers/appeals.

'Arc' also means each bullet makes its own entry - creates it's own wound, path and damage. The evidence is the killer moved closer, while shooting, as the damage was done in quick succession - not a shot and come back later. Moving and shooting precisely is skilled. Standing still and shooting accurately is pretty skilled. Shooting quickly is an acquired skill - as anyone who occasionally goes on a clay shoot will know.

Thank you. I do think that the boys were killed quickly rather than being shot once and then being shot again later. Mike's theory about the double-marked bullets is interesting but not very conclusive.

[mb1]

What does "arc" mean in this context?

I thought in was in a semi-circle or curve. That was from Daniels exit wound diagram that mike posted though.

How does one shoot in a curve? Excuse my ignorance about such things.

Have two fairly expert brains here right now (military).

You either move the gun gently to get an arc from a set position - which requires small arm/shoulder movements -  or you keep stance and move position, usually sideways, but slightly forward would work.

They have just given me some info re gun, which I'll add to sights.

[Kaldin]

What does "arc" mean in this context?

I thought in was in a semi-circle or curve. That was from Daniels exit wound diagram that mike posted though.

How does one shoot in a curve? Excuse my ignorance about such things.

Have two fairly expert brains here right now (military).

You either move the gun gently to get an arc from a set position - which requires small arm/shoulder movements -  or you keep stance and move position, usually sideways, but slightly forward would work.

They have just given me some info re gun, which I'll add to sights.

Cheers. 

[mb1]

I am still struggling to believe the stories of Julie mugford

Let's just say she was telling the truth (and to confirm once again I do not believe her) Julie mugford apparently knew the murders were happening weeks before the event she knew about the murders the morning of the event and she believed Jeremy was responsible for the murders after they happened (it would be a billion to one Jeremy didn't carry out the murders if he had told her before on that morning). She showed no guilt in that month after.  No body could pull that off.  She faced no charges although her actions would almost definately stopped the police having the forensic evidence to prove conclusively how the family died. She was given immunity and became a teacher with children in Canada.  My believe is the police knew she was lieing all along or she would never have been allowed to teach.  She perverted the course of justice in 5 murders compared to another famous face Maxine Carr who perverted the course of justice in two murders.  Can someone explain why she was not charged please



Maxine Ann Carr
Born   16 February 1977 (age 33)
Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England
Conviction(s)   Perverting the course of justice, Benefit fraud & Deception
Penalty   42 months imprisonment & 36 month rehabilitation order
Status   Released
Occupation   Teaching assistant
[edit]Maxine Carr
Maxine Carr had initially provided a false alibi to police for Huntley, claiming to be with him at the time of the murders when she was actually in Grimsby. She was charged with perverting the course of justice and assisting an offender. She pleaded guilty to the first charge and not guilty to the second.
Her failure to expose Huntley's lies in the early stages of the investigation (before either of them was arrested) meant that police initially eliminated Huntley as a suspect. The police who investigated the disappearance and murder of the two girls later said they would have quickly established that Ian Huntley was the abductor (and ultimately the murderer) of the two girls had Maxine Carr told the truth about their whereabouts at the time the girls went missing. But, due to her lies, the police were left waiting nearly two weeks before finally being able to arrest and charge him[14]
The court accepted that Carr had only lied to the police to protect Huntley because she believed his claims of innocence and so found her not guilty of assisting an offender. She was sentenced to three and a half years in prison and was released on probation on 14 May 2004 after serving 21 months (including 16 months on remand). She was given a new secret identity to protect her from threats of attack from members of the public that had been made during her remand, as well as during and after the trial.

Hello Jackie. I know you've brought up the issue of Maxine Carr before, and I have to say I agree with you. Maxine said she was at the house when she wasn't, which was a lie, but she didn't cover up for Huntley knowingly - she was found not guilty of that. She didn't provide a false alibi as such, she just said she was there. She has been reviled by many people for that to the extent that she has to hide her identity now.

Julie Mugford did a similar thing in some ways - worse really as she claimed that she knew Jeremy had done it, and yet I've seen nothing about her getting a hard time in the press or from the police or general public. She was not prosecuted for any of it. One could say that the prosecution needed her as a witness, but then Maxine Carr also testified against Huntley and was not given immunity.

In addition to the false alibi, Maxine Carr cleaned every surface in the house. She destroyed evidence.

JM did not give JB an alibi. She did not destroy evidence.  She gave information on 4 things, 3 were proved true by corroboration of others.
           Caravan robbery
           Cheque fraud
           Drug growing/dealing
           Murders
 

[Kaldin]

I am still struggling to believe the stories of Julie mugford

Let's just say she was telling the truth (and to confirm once again I do not believe her) Julie mugford apparently knew the murders were happening weeks before the event she knew about the murders the morning of the event and she believed Jeremy was responsible for the murders after they happened (it would be a billion to one Jeremy didn't carry out the murders if he had told her before on that morning). She showed no guilt in that month after.  No body could pull that off.  She faced no charges although her actions would almost definately stopped the police having the forensic evidence to prove conclusively how the family died. She was given immunity and became a teacher with children in Canada.  My believe is the police knew she was lieing all along or she would never have been allowed to teach.  She perverted the course of justice in 5 murders compared to another famous face Maxine Carr who perverted the course of justice in two murders.  Can someone explain why she was not charged please



Maxine Ann Carr
Born   16 February 1977 (age 33)
Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England
Conviction(s)   Perverting the course of justice, Benefit fraud & Deception
Penalty   42 months imprisonment & 36 month rehabilitation order
Status   Released
Occupation   Teaching assistant
[edit]Maxine Carr
Maxine Carr had initially provided a false alibi to police for Huntley, claiming to be with him at the time of the murders when she was actually in Grimsby. She was charged with perverting the course of justice and assisting an offender. She pleaded guilty to the first charge and not guilty to the second.
Her failure to expose Huntley's lies in the early stages of the investigation (before either of them was arrested) meant that police initially eliminated Huntley as a suspect. The police who investigated the disappearance and murder of the two girls later said they would have quickly established that Ian Huntley was the abductor (and ultimately the murderer) of the two girls had Maxine Carr told the truth about their whereabouts at the time the girls went missing. But, due to her lies, the police were left waiting nearly two weeks before finally being able to arrest and charge him[14]
The court accepted that Carr had only lied to the police to protect Huntley because she believed his claims of innocence and so found her not guilty of assisting an offender. She was sentenced to three and a half years in prison and was released on probation on 14 May 2004 after serving 21 months (including 16 months on remand). She was given a new secret identity to protect her from threats of attack from members of the public that had been made during her remand, as well as during and after the trial.

Hello Jackie. I know you've brought up the issue of Maxine Carr before, and I have to say I agree with you. Maxine said she was at the house when she wasn't, which was a lie, but she didn't cover up for Huntley knowingly - she was found not guilty of that. She didn't provide a false alibi as such, she just said she was there. She has been reviled by many people for that to the extent that she has to hide her identity now.

Julie Mugford did a similar thing in some ways - worse really as she claimed that she knew Jeremy had done it, and yet I've seen nothing about her getting a hard time in the press or from the police or general public. She was not prosecuted for any of it. One could say that the prosecution needed her as a witness, but then Maxine Carr also testified against Huntley and was not given immunity.

In addition to the false alibi, Maxine Carr cleaned every surface in the house. She destroyed evidence.

JM did not give JB an alibi. She did not destroy evidence.  She gave information on 4 things, 3 were proved true by corroboration of others.
           Caravan robbery
           Cheque fraud
           Drug growing/dealing
           Murders

Yes but Maxine didn't clean the house in order to cover up the crime - she was cleared of assisting an offender. She didn't destroy evidence on purpose.

If what Julie said is true, she did nothing to stop police officers destroying evidence and she lied in order to protect Jeremy. If the verdict had gone in his favour, that would partly be because she didn't come forward earlier.

[andrea]

if nevill did make that phone call "come quickly, sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun" she may not have fired the gun at all at this stage (if it was sheila), but she may have attacked him with it, struck him with it, before firing any bullets. I think that had neville been shot at this stage he would have said so when he made that telephone call.

[mb1]

if nevill did make that phone call "come quickly, sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun" she may not have fired the gun at all at this stage (if it was sheila), but she may have attacked him with it, struck him with it, before firing any bullets. I think that had neville been shot at this stage he would have said so when he made that telephone call.

Good point.