Author Topic: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series - Season 1  (Read 128718 times)

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Offline JackieD

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #135 on: March 29, 2021, 01:31:PM »
Answer the question if you have an answer.

Thanks QC.

There is absolutely not a single thing in Jeremys ‘baggage’ that makes it likely that he would murder his whole family and defiantly not anything regarding violence. The price for that goes to Julie. Who puts pillows over there boyfriends face to smother them when dumped. ???
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #136 on: March 29, 2021, 01:53:PM »
There is absolutely not a single thing in Jeremys ‘baggage’ that makes it likely that he would murder his whole family and defiantly not anything regarding violence. The price for that goes to Julie. Who puts pillows over there boyfriends face to smother them when dumped. ???

Well he stole from his gran and parents.

My question was to QC. Hopefully he will answer.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #137 on: March 29, 2021, 02:26:PM »
Well he stole from his gran and parents.

My question was to QC. Hopefully he will answer.

Sorry, I assumed the question was rhetorical and/or facetious.  It should be obvious what the alleged 'mistake' was, but to clarify: in his book, Lomas is claiming that the relatives got carried away with their grief and read the worst into Jeremy's intentions - quite similar to the scenario that Roch outlines above.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #138 on: March 29, 2021, 02:31:PM »
Sorry, I assumed the question was rhetorical and/or facetious.  It should be obvious what the alleged 'mistake' was, but to clarify: in his book, Lomas is claiming that the relatives got carried away with their grief and read the worst into Jeremy's intentions - quite similar to the scenario that Roch outlines above.

It sounded like Lomax was saying the relatives made a mistake they were unaware of.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #139 on: March 29, 2021, 02:42:PM »
There is absolutely not a single thing in Jeremys ‘baggage’ that makes it likely that he would murder his whole family and defiantly not anything regarding violence. The price for that goes to Julie. Who puts pillows over there boyfriends face to smother them when dumped. ???

Yes, this is a better way of putting it across. 

You can't say that Jeremy was a man of good character as he had admitted to the police that he stole from the caravan park.  That's a dead end.  You're just digging a hole for yourself, though I appreciate that may not be the point you were trying to get across and others have distorted your meaning.

What you can say is that Jeremy's prior behaviour gave no serious indication that he had murderous intent towards his parents, Sheila and the children.  The theft shows dishonesty and it was staged in the sense that it was made to look like a break-in, but that's nowhere near in the order of seriousness to mass murder, including killing two small boys.  What could change my mind about that is if it can be shown that Jeremy was about to be confronted about the theft by his parents. 

His remarks to Robert Boutflour and Julie Mugford, even if those conversations happened, can be dismissed as flippancy or jocularity that was taken out of context, and/or exaggerations of what Jeremy said.  In support of this, we can note that the remarks were reported to third parties after the fact by only two witnesses, both of whom had a motive to incriminate Jeremy. 

There is the alleged incident where Jeremy was trying to show Sheila how to use the rifle and a claim of a conversation about this between Robert Boutflour and Jean Bamber, but again this rests on one vested person reporting the incident after the fact.  That's not to say Robert Boutflour was lying, but it is to say that he may have been inclined to put a slant on things.  Sheila is supposed to have fired a shotgun on a shooting trip to Scotland.  And why shouldn't Jeremy show his sister how to use the rifle?  Put your own slant on it and decide.

The Bloke In The Pub, who reported a remark Jeremy made to him about hating his parents, can't be taken seriously.  I'm surprised the court even bothered with that witness, but I can also see why Geoffrey Rivlin, Q.C., may have decided not to object for the defence under the "he doth protest too much" principle.  Even if Jeremy did say he hated his parents and meant it at that time, lots of young people hate their parents, and may tell a friend as much, and may or may not mean it when they say it.  It doesn't imply anything sinister or criminal.

Pro-guilters say that these incidents point to a pattern of behaviour.  The remarks to Boutflour and The Bloke In The Pub can't be seen as part of a pattern.  Possibly the behaviour with Julie could be seen as a pattern.  In a sense, I regard Julie Mugford's evidence as bad character evidence rather than directly probative.  None of it proves Jeremy actually killed anybody or conspired to do so, and her account of what occurred turned out to be wrong as the person she incriminated had an alibi.  If the entire Crown case had rested on believing Julie, then Jeremy would have walked free. Even if you believe Jeremy literally said these things, it also rests on believing that her interpretation of what she heard is fair and accurate.  Yet there is some value in her evidence, in what it says of Jeremy's character and mindset.  I think Jeremy did have those conversations with Julie, but it is possible Julie has decontextualised the conversations and/or exaggerated them, leaving Jeremy and his legal team with no option but to refute them. 

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #140 on: March 29, 2021, 02:42:PM »
It sounded like Lomax was saying the relatives made a mistake they were unaware of.

Exactly right.  That, in summary, is what Lomax says in the book.

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #141 on: March 29, 2021, 03:04:PM »
Yes, this is a better way of putting it across. 

You can't say that Jeremy was a man of good character as he had admitted to the police that he stole from the caravan park.  That's a dead end.  You're just digging a hole for yourself, though I appreciate that may not be the point you were trying to get across and others have distorted your meaning.

What you can say is that Jeremy's prior behaviour gave no serious indication that he had murderous intent towards his parents, Sheila and the children.  The theft shows dishonesty and it was staged in the sense that it was made to look like a break-in, but that's nowhere near in the order of seriousness to mass murder, including killing two small boys.  What could change my mind about that is if it can be shown that Jeremy was about to be confronted about the theft by his parents. 

His remarks to Robert Boutflour and Julie Mugford, even if those conversations happened, can be dismissed as flippancy or jocularity that was taken out of context, and/or exaggerations of what Jeremy said.  In support of this, we can note that the remarks were reported to third parties after the fact by only two witnesses, both of whom had a motive to incriminate Jeremy. 

There is the alleged incident where Jeremy was trying to show Sheila how to use the rifle and a claim of a conversation about this between Robert Boutflour and Jean Bamber, but again this rests on one vested person reporting the incident after the fact.  That's not to say Robert Boutflour was lying, but it is to say that he may have been inclined to put a slant on things.  Sheila is supposed to have fired a shotgun on a shooting trip to Scotland.  And why shouldn't Jeremy show his sister how to use the rifle?  Put your own slant on it and decide.

The Bloke In The Pub, who reported a remark Jeremy made to him about hating his parents, can't be taken seriously.  I'm surprised the court even bothered with that witness, but I can also see why Geoffrey Rivlin, Q.C., may have decided not to object for the defence under the "he doth protest too much" principle.  Even if Jeremy did say he hated his parents and meant it at that time, lots of young people hate their parents, and may tell a friend as much, and may or may not mean it when they say it.  It doesn't imply anything sinister or criminal.

Pro-guilters say that these incidents point to a pattern of behaviour.  The remarks to Boutflour and The Bloke In The Pub can't be seen as part of a pattern.  Possibly the behaviour with Julie could be seen as a pattern.  In a sense, I regard Julie Mugford's evidence as bad character evidence rather than directly probative.  None of it proves Jeremy actually killed anybody or conspired to do so, and her account of what occurred turned out to be wrong as the person she incriminated had an alibi.  If the entire Crown case had rested on believing Julie, then Jeremy would have walked free. Even if you believe Jeremy literally said these things, it also rests on believing that her interpretation of what she heard is fair and accurate.  Yet there is some value in her evidence, in what it says of Jeremy's character and mindset.  I think Jeremy did have those conversations with Julie, but it is possible Julie has decontextualised the conversations and/or exaggerated them, leaving Jeremy and his legal team with no option but to refute them.
Correct QC, it’s very hard for a defence to defend bad character in a court, I think NGB would agree, it opens up a whole new can of worms and lets the prosecution exploit it more.  The only way of defending it is deal with it like you said.  Like I said, “he admitted in court about the caravan park money theft, he admitted he did this for greed, he was into  drugs and I know this doesn’t make anyone a murderer, but it’s sowing the seeds in the jury’s head’s and of course any prosecution would welcome this ammunition to use, The defence would have tried to get bad character omitted  as evidence for this reason.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #142 on: March 29, 2021, 03:40:PM »
Correct QC, it’s very hard for a defence to defend bad character in a court, I think NGB would agree, it opens up a whole new can of worms and lets the prosecution exploit it more.  The only way of defending it is deal with it like you said.  Like I said, “he admitted in court about the caravan park money theft, he admitted he did this for greed, he was into  drugs and I know this doesn’t make anyone a murderer, but it’s sowing the seeds in the jury’s head’s and of course any prosecution would welcome this ammunition to use, The defence would have tried to get bad character omitted  as evidence for this reason.

It sows the seeds of doubt. Espescially as there was only one alive suspect.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Roch

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #143 on: March 29, 2021, 03:54:PM »
It sows the seeds of doubt. Espescially as there was only one alive suspect.

Possibly yes. His behaviour, flippant, criminal or otherwise; and the fact he survived, could have been weighed against the killings for consideration. Though I think it's a tad unfair regarding using his survival against him: as he lived in his own cottage elsewhere, there was no reason for him to be routinely present in the farmhouse during the early hours anyway.

None of this however, excuses any suppression of evidence implicating Sheila. It doesn't matter how many places he robbed or how many people he upset, if evidence of Sheila's involvement was erased or withheld.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 03:56:PM by Roch »

Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #144 on: March 29, 2021, 04:26:PM »
Possibly yes. His behaviour, flippant, criminal or otherwise; and the fact he survived, could have been weighed against the killings for consideration. Though I think it's a tad unfair regarding using his survival against him: as he lived in his own cottage elsewhere, there was no reason for him to be routinely present in the farmhouse during the early hours anyway.

None of this however, excuses any suppression of evidence implicating Sheila. It doesn't matter how many places he robbed or how many people he upset, if evidence of Sheila's involvement was erased or withheld.

It would be common sense practice for the police to dispose of all evidence implicating Sheila. Espescially if they created a mountain of evidence implicating Bamber.

So be surprised if the CCRC submission has any newly discovered documents implimenting Sheila.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #145 on: March 29, 2021, 04:29:PM »
Correct QC, it’s very hard for a defence to defend bad character in a court, I think NGB would agree, it opens up a whole new can of worms and lets the prosecution exploit it more.  The only way of defending it is deal with it like you said.  Like I said, “he admitted in court about the caravan park money theft, he admitted he did this for greed, he was into  drugs and I know this doesn’t make anyone a murderer, but it’s sowing the seeds in the jury’s head’s and of course any prosecution would welcome this ammunition to use, The defence would have tried to get bad character omitted  as evidence for this reason.

Different types of bad character evidence were used against Jeremy.  Some went to his credibility as a witness of truth, some of it was more about highlighting patterns of behaviour or prior offending that could imply that he was more likely to be guilty. 

In regard to the theft at the caravan park, this seems to fall into both categories.  It shows recent criminal dishonesty, and it shows sufficient criminal acumen to stage an inside theft as a burglary.  Indeed, he was cross-examined about it at trial.

From the 2002 appeal judgment:

Quote
The Appellant's Evidence at Trial

137. No transcript has survived as to the appellant's evidence in chief, although it seems clear from the summing up that it was entirely consistent with that which he had told the police. A transcript of his cross-examination is available. In cross-examination the appellant said Sheila Caffell had frequent delusions and had spoken to him of suicide.

138. He admitted that the burglary at the caravan site had been motivated by greed and that by breaking a window and scattering papers around he had deliberately sought to give the impression it had been committed by somebody other than him.

139. Apart from Julie Mugford the appellant suggested that other witnesses had told lies about him during the trial. They included Mrs Mugford, James Richards, Dorothy Foakes and Robert Boutflour.

140. He admitted enjoying the good things in life – restaurants, wine bars, travelling, fast cars etc. In respect of the conversation with PC Myall about the Porsche car, the appellant said he was in fact referring to a kit model car made by a company called Covan Turbo who produced vehicles looking very similar to Porsche vehicles but at a cost of between £1-2,000.

It may be worth emphasising that from a strict textbook point-of-view, just having a prior criminal record does not necessarily lead to an inference of bad character.  There is in criminal law the concept of 'effective good character', where the defence argues for exclusion of adverse character evidence or a favourable direction from the bench on the basis that the prior criminal record is not relevant, either because the nature of the offending is different or because the offending is not recent.

In Jeremy's case, he admitted the caravan break-in, it was recent, and he could not overcome this by arguing that he had long-ago confessed to his parents, paid the money back (or was on his way to doing so), and had made other conspicuous efforts at rehabilitation.  Thus, the only line of argument the defence had would have been to say that the caravan break-in should either be excluded altogether or subject to a careful direction to the jury from the judge on the basis that it involved radically different offending to murder.  To be frank, I can understand why an experienced trial counsel like Geoffrey Rivlin, Q.C., would take the view: 'least said the better'.  You are never going to polish that problem away.  It is what it is.

The other problem Jeremy has is that if he has admitted to the break-in, this means that on at least one point, Julie was telling the truth - by Jeremy's own admission.  Not only that, she was telling the truth to her own detriment, since she was involved as his accomplice.  Yet Jeremy refutes (note: refutes, not just denies) everything else she says about him that is incriminating.  Maybe, as I have speculated above, Jeremy and his legal team had no choice but to pursue a blunt, unsophisticated strategy of refutation, but why is she telling the truth about one thing and not the rest? 

The flip side of that of course is that if Jeremy is guilty, why would he admit to the break-in?  Why not just continue to deny it?  Ironically, you could argue that his admission implies innocence of the later more serious incident, since he had nothing to gain by admitting it and did so greatly to his own detriment. 

Two possibilities to consider (I don't pretend these are exhaustive):

(i). Julie was telling the truth in a literal sense, and Jeremy did say most or all of these things or things very much like it.  But Jeremy was teasing/joking and she has exaggerated and taken what he said out of context.  This means she has either made a very grave mistake under the influence of pressures from the family and police, or she has lied by omission.  Jeremy continues to protest his innocence, and may or may not be innocent, since Julie's truthfulness can be considered separate and independent of the fact of what actually occurred at the farmhouse that night.
OR
(ii). She was in on it all along - what I call a 'constructive accomplice'.  She saw the tide turning, and under the influence of the family and police, switched sides and gave evidence against Jeremy.  Her earlier collusion with Jeremy has been concealed - hence the non-disclosure controversy.  Jeremy continues to protest his innocence because he knows that, although he is guilty, Julie cannot confirm this without also confirming her deeper involvement.  Instead, Julie has presented a story in which she is only semi-involved as Jeremy's confidant after-the-fact and also able to contextualise as incriminating conversations that took place with Jeremy before-the-fact.

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #146 on: March 29, 2021, 04:38:PM »
It would be common sense practice for the police to dispose of all evidence implicating Sheila. Espescially if they created a mountain of evidence implicating Bamber.

So be surprised if the CCRC submission has any newly discovered documents implimenting Sheila.

Would it really?  Common sense you say?

Offline Roch

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #147 on: March 29, 2021, 04:40:PM »
It would be common sense practice for the police to dispose of all evidence implicating Sheila. Espescially if they created a mountain of evidence implicating Bamber.

So be surprised if the CCRC submission has any newly discovered documents implimenting Sheila.

I can see where you're coming from. Anything dynamite would have been destroyed under Ainsley. All we are left with, is some trace evidence that the dynamite once existed.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 04:40:PM by Roch »

Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #148 on: March 29, 2021, 05:09:PM »
Different types of bad character evidence were used against Jeremy.  Some went to his credibility as a witness of truth, some of it was more about highlighting patterns of behaviour or prior offending that could imply that he was more likely to be guilty. 

In regard to the theft at the caravan park, this seems to fall into both categories.  It shows recent criminal dishonesty, and it shows sufficient criminal acumen to stage an inside theft as a burglary.  Indeed, he was cross-examined about it at trial.

From the 2002 appeal judgment:

It may be worth emphasising that from a strict textbook point-of-view, just having a prior criminal record does not necessarily lead to an inference of bad character.  There is in criminal law the concept of 'effective good character', where the defence argues for exclusion of adverse character evidence or a favourable direction from the bench on the basis that the prior criminal record is not relevant, either because the nature of the offending is different or because the offending is not recent.

In Jeremy's case, he admitted the caravan break-in, it was recent, and he could not overcome this by arguing that he had long-ago confessed to his parents, paid the money back (or was on his way to doing so), and had made other conspicuous efforts at rehabilitation.  Thus, the only line of argument the defence had would have been to say that the caravan break-in should either be excluded altogether or subject to a careful direction to the jury from the judge on the basis that it involved radically different offending to murder.  To be frank, I can understand why an experienced trial counsel like Geoffrey Rivlin, Q.C., would take the view: 'least said the better'.  You are never going to polish that problem away.  It is what it is.

The other problem Jeremy has is that if he has admitted to the break-in, this means that on at least one point, Julie was telling the truth - by Jeremy's own admission.  Not only that, she was telling the truth to her own detriment, since she was involved as his accomplice.  Yet Jeremy refutes (note: refutes, not just denies) everything else she says about him that is incriminating.  Maybe, as I have speculated above, Jeremy and his legal team had no choice but to pursue a blunt, unsophisticated strategy of refutation, but why is she telling the truth about one thing and not the rest? 

The flip side of that of course is that if Jeremy is guilty, why would he admit to the break-in?  Why not just continue to deny it?  Ironically, you could argue that his admission implies innocence of the later more serious incident, since he had nothing to gain by admitting it and did so greatly to his own detriment. 

Two possibilities to consider (I don't pretend these are exhaustive):

(i). Julie was telling the truth in a literal sense, and Jeremy did say most or all of these things or things very much like it.  But Jeremy was teasing/joking and she has exaggerated and taken what he said out of context.  This means she has either made a very grave mistake under the influence of pressures from the family and police, or she has lied by omission.  Jeremy continues to protest his innocence, and may or may not be innocent, since Julie's truthfulness can be considered separate and independent of the fact of what actually occurred at the farmhouse that night.
OR
(ii). She was in on it all along - what I call a 'constructive accomplice'.  She saw the tide turning, and under the influence of the family and police, switched sides and gave evidence against Jeremy.  Her earlier collusion with Jeremy has been concealed - hence the non-disclosure controversy.  Jeremy continues to protest his innocence because he knows that, although he is guilty, Julie cannot confirm this without also confirming her deeper involvement.  Instead, Julie has presented a story in which she is only semi-involved as Jeremy's confidant after-the-fact and also able to contextualise as incriminating conversations that took place with Jeremy before-the-fact.

Bamber didn't pay the money back or was in the process of doing so.
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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #149 on: March 29, 2021, 05:20:PM »
Bamber didn't pay the money back or was in the process of doing so.
Didn't Neville pay it back and Bamber was supposedly going to pay Neville?  Not quite sure now.