Lest We Forget...................

[Steve_uk]

Would either an undisclosed photograph of Sheila on the bed or an admission by a Raid Team member that he physically moved Sheila's body 35 years on be enough to render the conviction of Jeremy Bamber unsafe?

[David1819]

See below.  I can't reply to every point because I don't have time, and these are not detailed responses, again due to time constraints on me.

Don't waste your time

1.

Perfectly clean palm of hands on Sheila - Not disputed - COA

This is actually disputed in the COA Point 517 and contradicted in the pathologists notes.

2.

One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila - Not disputed - COA

This is not even incriminating

3.

Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila.  Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected - Not disputed - COA, BAMBER'S DEFENCE.

Again wrong

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9975.msg455530.html#msg455530

4.

Well manicured nails on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.


5.

No broken nails - Not disputed COA.


6.

Nails in tact - Not disputed - COA.

Here Adam has mentioned the same thing three times over but worded them differently. Need I say more?

The first 10% of the gish gallop is crap then the other 90% of it will be.

[Adam]

It would help if he provided the sources used by COA also. But the idea of using primary sources is rather alien to him.

Says the poster who won't even disclose his forensic evidence breakthrough.

The COA judgement quotes lots of sources. Try reading it some time.

[Adam]

See below.  I can't reply to every point because I don't have time, and these are not detailed responses, again due to time constraints on me.

I would like to ask that if Adam wants to cite the Court of Appeal (I assume the 2002 judgment) as his source, then he should provide the paragraph number each time.  This is so that we can quickly verify if Adam's interpretation of what the judges ruled or stated is accurate.

Given that she was found holding a rifle, that's rather peculiar.  But who am I to argue with the Court of Appeal?   

Even if true, proves nothing.

I dispute this, not as a simple fact, but for its interpretation and significance.  You take the simple view that big must prevail over small, but that is not how it works in reality.  For various reasons, a small and weak person can have physical and psychological advantages over a large person in a fight or struggle.

Paragraph?

Well why didn't you say so before?  There I was thinking we had reasonable doubt because she could have killed herself and then showered.  I'll have to amend that submission to the CCRC now.  Thanks Adam.

How were these scratch marks made, Adam?

Paragraph?

Not true.  We've been over this twice.  Your assertion does not reflect what the Court of Appeal states in its judgment. 

Definitely disputed, Adam!

Definitely disputed, as is your assertion that Nevill was woken up by being shot!

This was not rejected by the Court of Appeal.  To my knowledge, the specific point has never been adjudicated.

Well I'll dispute this.  There is no evidence for it.  It's just an assumption and opinionation on the part of the pathologist.

No idea what you mean, sorry.

Not true.  Both I and David have provided you with plausible Sheila scenarios.

I agree with this one.

That's not incriminating.  It suggests that Bamber was at Bourtree Cottage, as he claims.

Hotly disputed, to use a pun. Nobody knows how those injuries were caused.

Easy for a woman to wake up in the middle of a violent massacre or when being carried - Common knowledge.

I also agree with you on this one.  While it doesn't link Bamber to the crime, it does open up the possibility that he could have entered and exited the farmhouse that night while allowing the appearance that it was locked from the inside.

In regard to both this and your earlier point about blood under the Bible, the problem you have is that the police probably moved the Bible and re-positioned Sheila - no doubt for entirely innocent reasons.  My suspicion is that Jeremy left Sheila on the bed.

I agree with this, but I would say that the period was more like 1 a.m. to 2.30 a.m.

He needed to do the deed in the absolute dead hours.

12 a.m. is a bit too early, because it's possible people are still awake at that time - not just in the farmhouse, but in the locality. 

3 a.m. is a bit too late, due to the risk that people in the locality will be getting up and going to work.

I think he needed it done by 2.30 a.m.

You are forgetting that the police moved everything about.

The magazine was charged.  It's not a big deal for her to load the gun.

That's not what the blood expert found and the trial judge misdirected the jury on the blood evidence.  Hayward only said that the blood grouping corresponded to Sheila's, with a remote possibility of June and Nevill's blood groups. 

But you assume it would have been like taking sweets from a baby.  I would dispute this.  I've explained already elsewhere.

Thanks.

Do you believe there was an Industrial frame. Involving EP, the relatives, Julie & the experts?

[David1819]

26.

Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila - Not disputed - COA.


27.

Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT.

And Adam wonders why nobody takes him seriously.

[David1819]

36.

A lot of blood on Nevill's side of the bed - Not disputed - COA.

Not only is there no mention of that in the COA. The crime scene photos dispute that. 

[guest29835]

Thanks.

Do you believe there was an Industrial frame. Involving EP, the relatives, Julie & the experts?

No, I think it was Crispy - Thread started.

Why do you think Jeremy had him put down?  Crispy would have been the star witness.  Even Taff was on to it.

[David1819]

44.

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell - Not disputed after Bamber hired him - WILKES'S BOOK.

Not disputed? The guy himself changed his view.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343

You already know this.

[Adam]

Not disputed? The guy himself changed his view.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343

You already know this.

McConnel said Sheila could not commit suicide as her arms were too long.

Sorry I forgot. The relatives put diluted period blood & aga paint into the silencer and the lab didn't notice.

[David1819]

28.

Nevill being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting had just got out of bed - Not disputed - COA.


29.

Sheila being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting she had just got out of bed - Not disputed - COA.

Victims being bare footed and in pyjamas? Very compelling proof of guilt! 

[Adam]

Not only is there no mention of that in the COA. The crime scene photos dispute that. 

On the floor. Apparently Sheila's & June's. But doubt they tested everything. So a slim chance some could be Nevill's.

You refuse to discuss one of your two reasons for your secret stance change.

[guest29835]

On the floor. Apparently Sheila's & June's. But doubt they tested everything. So a slim chance some could be Nevill's.

You refuse to discuss one of your two reasons for your secret stance change.

Thanks Adam.

[Adam]

Victims being bare footed and in pyjamas? Very compelling proof of guilt! 

I agree. Suggesting both had just got out of bed.

One or both would have certainly put on a dressing gown or slippers in that large house.

At least after 5 years you are trying.

[Adam]

Thanks Adam.

Here to help.

Do you believe there was an industrial frame. Involving hundreds of people. On a man who had just lost his family?

Why would everyone agree to this?

[guest29835]

Here to help.

Do you believe there was an industrial frame. Involving hundreds of people. On a man who had just lost his family?

Why would everyone agree to this?

As I've said already, Adam, I think Crispy was behind it all.  That's my theory and I'm basing it on fresh evidence.  You'll have to forgive me here, Adam, because I can't reveal all the details as it's going before the CCRC.  I'm sure you understand.

With this, your Eastenders theory (the Frank, Peggy and Pat carry-on) and the ketchup/HP sauce fiasco, I think we may have enough for a referral to the Court of Appeal.

Don't forget as well my theory that Jeremy was training for the Tour de Yorkshire.  This was a clever cover story on Jeremy's part to explain his bicycling routines but he almost came unstuck because Uncle Bobby realised and started looking for track marks.

It's all falling into place, Adam, and you've played a big part in it.