Author Topic: Brief Thoughts On The Case  (Read 6710 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2020, 04:19:PM »
The rifle was long enough to reach June and Nevill from June's side of the bed. Bamber would have believed 3/4 face shots into Nevill would be sufficient. But he only managed 2.

Nevill got out of bed while Bamber was still on June's side. Bamber moved away from the bed & fired two more shots as Nevill moved towards the bedroom door. He then retreated as out of bullets & expecting Nevill may attack him. This allowed Nevill to get past him.

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2020, 05:14:PM »
Neither were asleep. Nevill would have been downstairs in the kitchen after having returned from his usual nightly walk with the dogs. Not forgetting that Nevill had continued working on the rape harvest after Jeremy had left .
As a force of habit, Nevill would then have sat with a G&T and a smoke to unwind before having a shower and also waiting for June to settle as she'd been a poor sleeper.

June would have been in bed but not necessarily asleep as it was obvious that she'd been reading the Bible.
Two teacups were found downstairs so either June and Nevill had a drink each or Nevill and Sheila may have had as at some point Sheila also had a snack late on.

It would have been quite late at this juncture and perhaps only another 4 hours before Nevill would have been up again to begin another day of harvesting, so whatever happened between midnight and 3am nobody will ever know and it's futile to even speculate.

We can look at the evidence and speculate.

If Jeremy is innocent, that means something happened around 3 a.m. or so (we can only go roughly on times).  Would Nevill and June normally still be awake at that sort of time?  Would Nevill be drinking into the early hours of the morning?  He didn't have a drink problem that I'm aware of.  It seems unlikely to me.

However, I don't believe they were asleep.  To that extent, I agree with you.  It does seem more likely that at least June was in bed and something had roused her, and she then sat up, or maybe sat at the edge of the bed.  Nevill was out of bed already.  He must have been.  Look at the bed sheets. 

I understand why there is a need for the rifle to have the silencer on it.  Jeremy might have anticipated that the report would alert the adults to his presence.  But to me, it looks like the rifle didn't have the silencer on it.  Otherwise, why are they awake?  How is Nevill downstairs in the kitchen?  Even if we think Jeremy did it, why can't we admit that it is possible that Sheila is the killer and she just went on a rampage? 

The struggle in the kitchen also points to Sheila, because Nevill would be hesitant in dealing with his daughter.  Jeremy and Nevill would not enter into a struggle in the kitchen.  Jeremy was armed and would just kill him in the bedroom or, if he ran out of ammunition, he would tackle him on the stairs or upstairs.

People laugh at the idea that Sheila stopped to wash herself, but if we believe the Crown's case, then we must accept that:

(i). Jeremy killed his own family for money. 
(ii). Jeremy entered and left the house through a narrow casement window without leaving any blood traces.
(iii). Jeremy carried out the massacre without leaving any direct forensic evidence that he had done so.
(iv). Jeremy nevertheless implicated himself circumstantially by leaving a bloodied and 'sticky' silencer in the gun cupboard.
(v). Jeremy also very kindly stopped during the massacre to scratch the aga surround so that the silencer would have further incriminating forensic traces on it.  Thanks Jeremy.
(vi). It was helpful of Sheila to stay asleep all the way through it all.  Everybody else involved in this case is a light sleeper and some of them get up for 3 a.m. phone calls like rabbits on Duracel, but not Sheila.  That lass slept like a log.
(vii). Former Scotland Yard C11 Branch detective Stan Jones regarded Jeremy as prime suspect from the off.  This same Stan Jones offered Jeremy the keys to the crime scene, and left all the guns in the house for Jeremy to find.  That was nice of Stan Jones, given that Jeremy was a suspected mass murderer.
(viii). Jeremy declined this open goal and was delighted that the relatives were given the keys so that they could find a key piece of evidence that Jeremy had left there.
(ix). Alternatively, Jeremy broke into the house later and left the evidence there for the relatives to find - which was very nice of him.
(x). It was also very considerate of Jeremy not to leave blood in the den, in the gun cupboard or in the cardboard box in which David Boutflour found the silencer.  Leaving the place spick and span shows that Jeremy was not just a mass murderer, but a mature and responsible young man.
(xi). Jeremy tells his girlfriend, Julie, everything.  Jeremy then splits up with her.  I suppose as a former public school boy imbued with the English traditions of amateurism and sportsman-like behaviour, Jeremy was doing his best to help the relatives and the police put him in the frame.  It just wouldn't be cricket otherwise.
(xii). We are to believe that Julie was not an accomplice and was not arrested, instead she went to the police voluntarily, but only after more than a month, during which time she slept with Jeremy, socialised with him, and identified all the bodies because she thought she could talk to the dead.

But let's say Jeremy is the killer.  I think he didn't plan it.  He was psychotic and over-estimated the lethality of the murder weapon.  He assumed it would all be over quick, and instead it got messy and he was left to improvise.  He comes up with the phone call alibi idea after Nevill ends up downstairs.  He recalls a genuine call that I would speculate Nevill made to Jeremy earlier in the evening, which started it all off, in which Nevill berated him and Jeremy thinks that he can fake a call.  He doesn't give much thought to it beyond leaving the rifle on or near Sheila's body and he then ropes in Julie by ringing her in the early hours of the morning.

The difficulty with that theory is the 3 a.m. phone call (or 3.15 a.m. or whatever time it was).  Isn't it quite a coincidence that Julie is there to answer the phone herself? 

It's convenient that Jeremy eventually answers the phone for Nevil, but that's not a coincidence.  Jeremy can explain this away by pointing out that he is Nevill's son, Nevill wants to contain problems in the family and not involve the authorities, blah, blah, blah and so on.  Nevill is at a stand-off in the kitchen with Sheila, who is carrying on and has the loaded rifle that Jeremy left out earlier.   Nevill assumes she won't use the rifle, but he doesn't try to tackle her, maybe because he can't catch her or whatever reason.  Nevill waits for Jeremy to answer the phone.  The phone has a loud ring.  Eventually Jeremy wakes and answers, etc., etc., and so on.  Make of that what you will, but it is plausible.

But then Jeremy rings Julie, and she answers too - a handy coincidence.

Offline lookout

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2020, 12:53:PM »
How easy is it to look at this case, solve it and immediately point a finger at the last man standing just because he liked money ? Crimes don't always happen this way !

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2020, 12:58:PM »
How easy is it to look at this case, solve it and immediately point a finger at the last man standing just because he liked money ? Crimes don't always happen this way !

Yes.  I'm not convinced by the inheritance motive anyway.  If I understand correctly, Jeremy was not inheriting investment bonds or some other genuine form of passive income.  The value was the goodwill in the farm and the other businesses, and there was cash.  Farms need work.  Jeremy could have spent all the cash, but that wouldn't have lasted long.  At some point, he would have had to either sell the businesses, which isn't simple and can't be done in an instant, or knuckle down to work, or have somebody else run the farm.  Would Peter Eaton have willingly worked under him for very long?

It's not so straight-forward.

Offline David1819

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2020, 01:06:PM »
It took Nevill seconds to get down the stairs when he was sleepy and had been shot four times, including twice in the face. 

Thanks Adam.

None of Nevils blood was on the main bedroom floor. Adam believes, Jeremy (who had plenty of experience shooting) Fired 9 shots at two sleeping targets at point blank range and failed to kill them. Nevil then ran past Jeremy while containing his blood so he could spill it all outside the bedroom.



Offline lookout

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2020, 01:07:PM »
Yes.  I'm not convinced by the inheritance motive anyway.  If I understand correctly, Jeremy was not inheriting investment bonds or some other genuine form of passive income.  The value was the goodwill in the farm and the other businesses, and there was cash.  Farms need work.  Jeremy could have spent all the cash, but that wouldn't have lasted long.  At some point, he would have had to either sell the businesses, which isn't simple and can't be done in an instant, or knuckle down to work, or have somebody else run the farm.  Would Peter Eaton have willingly worked under him for very long?

It's not so straight-forward.




Jeremy would have mucked in with the farm initially while the workers established themselves under the supervision of a much younger boss. I doubt that PE would have gone along with the idea though and life on the farm for Jeremy could well have turned sour. It's hard to say how things would have turned out.

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2020, 01:18:PM »
None of Nevils blood was on the main bedroom floor. Adam believes, Jeremy (who had plenty of experience shooting) Fired 9 shots at two sleeping targets at point blank range and failed to kill them. Nevil then ran past Jeremy while containing his blood so he could spill it all outside the bedroom.

David believes Nevill ran downstairs to ring Jeremy after Sheila started shooting the twins.

Bamber hit Nevill twice in the face as Nevill was waking & getting up. His two torso shots were as Nevill was moving towards the bedroom door. What part of that do you not understand?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2020, 01:28:PM »
43.

Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly.

She also suffered shots to the right side of the lower part of her neck, the right forearm, two injuries to the right side of the chest and to the right knee. There was a great deal of blood on her body and clothing and from its pattern, it appeared that at some stage of the attack she had been in an upright position.

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Seems that Bamber was pretty accurrate with his bed shots to June.

Neck & chest shots would have maybe eventually killed her. Knee shots meant she couldn't walk. The neck shot also meaning she can't use her voice.

The variety of locations suggested a crazy Sheila.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 01:34:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2020, 01:32:PM »
Bamber could afford to shoot June in a variety of places. They may kill her but a still alive & seriously injured June is no threat to him. He can return to her. Which is what he did.

However Nevill is another matter & he would have wanted 3/4 head shots.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 01:34:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2020, 02:05:PM »
None of Nevils blood was on the main bedroom floor. Adam believes, Jeremy (who had plenty of experience shooting) Fired 9 shots at two sleeping targets at point blank range and failed to kill them. Nevil then ran past Jeremy while containing his blood so he could spill it all outside the bedroom.

I think you'll agree with me it was very considerate of Nevill to do that.  After all, think of the additional trouble the police would have been put to.

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2020, 02:17:PM »
41.

There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk.

There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.

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The blood in Nevill's upstairs head shots would have built up inside his mouth.

The shoulder is not an area of high blood flow. So no reason blood would drop down from his upright 6.4 frame through pyjamas onto carpet.

The elbow shot was a crazing wound. Again in an area with low blood flow. So no reason why blood would drop down through his pyjamas onto the floor.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:28:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2020, 02:24:PM »
From first shot to kitchen entry would have been less than 30 seconds.

No time for any blood from Nevill falling onto the floor or bed. Besides which I am still waiting for a source on the stair carpet.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:25:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2020, 02:53:PM »
Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs by Bamber with a rifle used for shooting rabbits.

Two shots were in locations with low blood flow. One being a grazing shot. Two shots the blood would have built up inside the mouth.

Nevill was simultaneously getting up and moving towards the bedroom door & stairs while receiving the shots.

For goodness sake, no reason why any of his blood would be on any carpet.

Besides which proof Nevill was shot upstairs is in the cartridge locations.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2020, 05:08:PM »
Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs by Bamber with a rifle used for shooting rabbits.

Two shots were in locations with low blood flow. One being a grazing shot. Two shots the blood would have built up inside the mouth.

Nevill was simultaneously getting up and moving towards the bedroom door & stairs while receiving the shots.

For goodness sake, no reason why any of his blood would be on any carpet.

Besides which proof Nevill was shot upstairs is in the cartridge locations.

Do you accept that Nevill:

(i). must have been drowsy [you are saying Nevill was asleep when he was first shot];
(ii). in shock;
(iii). must have bled;
(iv). must have touched his wounds;
(v). must have transferred blood from himself to objects and fixtures around him.

Nevill sounds like a character out of that Jean-Claude Van Damme film, Universal Soldier.  It just seems remarkable that he can be woken by being shot in bed, can leap out of bed, get shot three more times - including twice in the face - but still make it past Jeremy and all the way to the kitchen leaving hardly any blood.

Why didn't Jeremy just kill him? 

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2020, 05:15:PM »
Do you accept that Nevill:

(i). must have been in shock;
(ii). must have bled;
(iii). must have touched his wounds;
(iv). must have transferred blood from himself to objects and fixtures around him.

He would have been in shock.

What objects would he touch between his bed and kitchen? Nevill's palm print was just outside the kitchen door.


Have you got a source on the stair carpet?

Are you saying Nevill was not shot in the main bedroom? Four bullet casings show he was.

Where do you believe Nevill received his first 4 shots?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 05:18:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.