Russia - worrying?

[Steve_uk]

    Should the world have let NATO dismember Yugoslavia, bomb Belgrade?
     Was this appeasement of US/NATO?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Afghanistan?
     Was this appeasement?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Iraq?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to bomb sovereign states like Syria, Yemen?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Libya?
     Should the world allow NATO?
     You have absolutely no idea of what NATO's ultimate agenda is. Although there are some fucking big clues.
     Do you think that NATO are perhaps seeking world domination?
     Did you make Hitler comparisons when any of the above was taking place, in your name?
     Did you even give a shit? or is it only now? Indoctrinated much?
   

I think they wanted to avoid another Srebrenica massacre. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33445772

The Taliban were harbouring Osama bin Laden. They could have handed him over to the USA and avoided the invasion.

[gringo]

I think they wanted to avoid another Srebrenica massacre. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33445772

The Taliban were harbouring Osama bin Laden. They could have handed him over to the USA and avoided the invasion.

    Of course that was the reason, Steve. Many believed this at the time but ongoing aggression and the benefit of hindsight has disabused most of them and it is now seen, correctly, as the first blow in NATO's world domination tour.
     The Taliban harbouring Osama Bin Laden is an even bigger joke. The US refused to show evidence through any extradition procedure. The US simply demanded that the Taliban(Afghani govt.) hand over Bin Laden without evidence. No sovereign state would agree to this evidence free non legal demand. They knew that the Taliban couldn't do this. You have to show the evidence before any extradition.
     Country X demanding that country Y hand over a guest or else we will invade is not legal, Steve.
     The US were always going to invade Afghanistan.
     Every military invasion, bombing campaign by US/NATO has been based on later to be proven lies.
     To still believe that NATO interventions have been based on good intent given the destruction, civilian deaths, destroyed infrastructure, refugee crises and displacement caused by them is beyond naive. Are you unaware of the crimes committed in your name.
      That you still make excuses for the countless millions of deaths brought by this genocidal, aggressive crime spree is wilful blindness. Your ignorance and failure to see is because you choose not to. Facts on the ground unfolding are going to force everyone to confront the realities of NATO and our governments criminal actions.

[ILB]

    Ukraine was not a "peaceful nation".
     For 8 years the Ukrainian Army has been shelling civilian areas in Donbass/Luhansk. This is in breach of the 2015 Minsk 2 accords, which are also a UNSC resolution. I know this is all over your head, but I'll explain anyway.
     The ceasefire violations, lack of any attempt to negotiate with the separatists as stipulated in Minsk 2 and the continued shelling of civilian areas, killing thousands, all recorded by the OSCE necessitated Russia to intervene under the R2P doctrine.
      The build up of Ukrainian troops on the borders of Donbass threatening invasion showed Ukraine to be anything but a peaceful nation. The 2014 coup has also ensured that they are anything but an "independent sovereign nation". They are clearly US/NATO vassals as evidenced by the amount of US/UK/NATO aid, arms and mercenaries? pouring in from the real leaders of this US vassal.
      Your questions and the framing of them show that you have no understanding of world affairs and no interest in any real discussion about it. You just want to hear, "Putin bad, Russia bad".
      In truth the western machinations to interfere in Ukraine have been ongoing for decades and if you knew anything about the matters you are attempting to discuss, you would already know this, but you don't.
     2014 is when western plots went into overdrive with the Maidan coup. You are nowhere near understanding what is going on in Ukraine and seem to think it started only this year when,
   "peaceful, sovereign and independent Ukraine who were just hanging around minding their own business shelling civilians and threatening, along with NATO, to put nuclear missiles next to Russia's border were suddenly invaded for no other reason than Putin just waking up and deciding one morning"
     Do some reading!

So what do you sensibly think the end game of this is. Say the whole of Ukraine is under Russian occupation.

[ILB]

You are championing this invasion. When you know it is not going to ultimately cause any good in the slightest. I'm well aware of the donbar 14 -22 conflict. Forget NATO. You know full well the world can't stand by and appease this invasion. it can only be condemned

[ILB]

You are way off the mark.

You have no idea of what the long term agenda is. It can only cause destruction. And deaths of innocent civilians. How can you say for certain what the agenda is of vladamir in the long term?

[gringo]

So what do you sensibly think the end game of this is. Say the whole of Ukraine is under Russian occupation.

   A more constructive question, ILB.
     Initially, I think the Russians would have settled for the demands made in December. These are non membership of NATO for Ukraine and remaining neutral as well as a ban on further NATO expansion.
 The removal of troops and weapon systems placed in countries who joined after 1997. There are 8 points but these are the main points. Read rest of it at the link for a fuller picture
 
     https://intellinews.com/russia-issues-a-eight-point-list-of-demands-229829/

     Escalations and interference by US/UK/NATO since then fuelling rather than trying to end the hostilities have hardened the position not just of the Russian leadership, but also the Russian public. The provocations via Lithuania towards Kaliningrad being one example of deliberately pouring fuel on the fire.
     The sanctions and attempts to strangle Russia economically are another. Seizing the funds of a nation like Russia makes the world take notice. US and Western organisations are untrustworthy and thieves. These were suicidal moves. NATO attempts to weaken Russia have escalated what should have been a solvable regional security issue into an all encompassing war that will lead to the ultimate neutering of Western US/NATO dominance, militarily and economically.
     I expect that NATO/US bases and illegal occupations around the world will come under increasing pressure. Everyone has cheap accurate missiles now making many bases and occupations ultimately non viable.
     In terms of Ukraine itself. The entire Black Sea coast, including Odessa will be taken by Russia, DPR, LPR troops and referendums held in each oblast as to their status. NATO will be allowed no presence on the Ukrainian Black Sea coast. Kiev and parts of the west of the country such as Galicia may become part of a neutralised land locked rump Ukrainian state. Poland may stake claims on parts as well as others. Ukraine is finished. That is what it deserves after allowing themselves to be used as a spearhead into Russia. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
    I expect further NATO provocations and fuelling of the fire and hope that our leaders are not insane enough to launch nuclear weapons. Provocations against China, via Taiwan are one possibility. It seems more likely that an "Iron Curtain 2.0" will come down at some point. This time we will be on the censored and poorer side of it. Western populations will hopefully eventually be awakened from their complacency and see the lies and crimes of our representatives. Our free ride in the West at the expense of other nations resources is over, one way or another.
   
   

[gringo]

You are way off the mark.

You have no idea of what the long term agenda is. It can only cause destruction. And deaths of innocent civilians. How can you say for certain what the agenda is of vladamir in the long term?

  Given the NATO invasions and bombings of the last 3 decades, you should be more concerned with the agenda of NATO. No country comes near to the aggression and illegal behaviour of US/NATO.
     

[gringo]

You are championing this invasion. When you know it is not going to ultimately cause any good in the slightest. I'm well aware of the donbar 14 -22 conflict. Forget NATO. You know full well the world can't stand by and appease this invasion. it can only be condemned

   So what do you think about the refusal of the Ukrainian govt. to negotiate with separatist leaders? Or the thousands of civilian Ukrainian deaths caused by the Ukrainian Army shelling them? If you are "well aware" of the Donbass conflict, what do you think the solution was?

[ILB]

  Given the NATO invasions and bombings of the last 3 decades, you should be more concerned with the agenda of NATO. No country comes near to the aggression and illegal behaviour of US/NATO.
   

Reference the Iraq situation. I have Iraqi friends. And I have heard different scenarios reference Saddam's rule. He was brutal. But many Iraqis I know spoke well of him. He revolutionzed the country. The Iraq under Saddam was not like many other Arab countries. It was westernised
 With alcohol freely  I know of the US supporting Iraq in the Iraq Iran conflict  1980 to 1988.

[Roch]

Reference the Iraq situation. I have Iraqi friends. And I have heard different scenarios reference Saddam's rule. He was brutal. But many Iraqis I know spoke well of him. He revolutionzed the country. The Iraq under Saddam was not like many other Arab countries. It was westernised
 With alcohol freely  I know of the US supporting Iraq in the Iraq Iran conflict  1980 to 1988.

Saddam may have raised a glass to you ILB. He was a fan of single malts I believe.

[ILB]

Saddam may have raised a glass to you ILB. He was a fan of single malts I believe.

Uday was worse than Saddam. By a lot more.

[gringo]

Reference the Iraq situation. I have Iraqi friends. And I have heard different scenarios reference Saddam's rule. He was brutal. But many Iraqis I know spoke well of him. He revolutionzed the country. The Iraq under Saddam was not like many other Arab countries. It was westernised
 With alcohol freely  I know of the US supporting Iraq in the Iraq Iran conflict  1980 to 1988.

   Not only did they support Iraq in their conflict with Iran, they also supplied the chemical weapons and the targeting for their use. Years later the US had the shameless effrontery to use this episode to demonstrate Saddam's brutality, conveniently forgetting their own supporting and enabling of the whole thing.
      In the immediate aftermath of the Iranian 1979 revolution and overthrowing of the manipulable Pahlavi clan, the US would side with the devil himself to restore the status quo in Iran. Many thousands of Iranians were killed or permanently injured by chemical weapons. This fact was brought up by George Galloway in the oft referred to Senate hearings pointing out US sponsorship and complicity.
     
     

[gringo]

You are championing this invasion. When you know it is not going to ultimately cause any good in the slightest. I'm well aware of the donbar 14 -22 conflict. Forget NATO. You know full well the world can't stand by and appease this invasion. it can only be condemned

    The world has stood by powerless while NATO has literally destroyed cities, Raqqa, Mosul, Fallujah, levelling them and everyone in them. The dead left under rubble uncounted. The world is fucking tired Of NATO/US/UK aggression and will happily appease NATO being confronted and taken down. In fact most of the world are cheering them on.
    BRICS, SCO and other trading blocs are breaking free of the dollar. There is a lot going on in the economic sphere by countries who have had enough of the US abusing the world reserve currency status of the dollar. It's demise is imminent.
    Outside the propagandised west, it isn't Russia that is seen as the threat.

[ILB]

Saddam may have raised a glass to you ILB. He was a fan of single malts I believe.

Yes roch Johnny walker black label I believe. Also he was a big fan of the Godfather movie series. And ran his regime based upon it.

[ILB]

   So what do you think about the refusal of the Ukrainian govt. to negotiate with separatist leaders? Or the thousands of civilian Ukrainian deaths caused by the Ukrainian Army shelling them? If you are "well aware" of the Donbass conflict, what do you think the solution was?

I think we have to go back to the old question of " when will this cease" and the " the long-term future.

As a pacifist I would just like to see peace. I hesitate seeing British soldiers being sent into Ukraine. If that were to be the case. Ultimately you know if this conflict persists and Russia moves and advances further west. Western military intervention may take place. It's just a possibility.

Remember the Minsk agreement talks. First one fell at the hurdle. I believe the second one stalled with Russia blaming Ukraine for it.

Ultimately I would just like to see peace. It's that simple. This is not world war 2. Many of these conflicts are ultimately pointless. And nothing ever justifies civilians getting killed.

They need to come to a mutual agreement. Again we are not clear on Putin's agenda