A shooting incident at White House farm

[lookout]

is it any wonder people dont want to post if there motives for doing so are constantly questioned.

Well said !!!

[susan]

Hi Roch

I love lurkers as they can come with an element of surprise I watch them daily.

[nugnug]

i bet he wishes he hadent bothered now this is no way to treat a new poster.

[Jan]

i bet he wishes he hadent bothered now this is no way to treat a new poster.

I agree - if there is an ulterior motive it will become obvious later - so as long as a poster answers questions and we are honest in our posts I dont see what the problem is ?

[scipio_usmc]

Basically a house of cards should stand quite securely on a sand foundation, as it is constructed of light materials. The instability comes when a well build stone structure is built upon an unstable foundation such as sand. The analogy being that to the sight the structure looks pretty sound, but when tested by the elements would quickly fail. Not because of the bad structure, which is made of an excellent material, rock. But it is only bound to fail because of the sand which as you know is unstable and moves. So it is in fact the foundation which is at fault and not the actual building. To bring the analogy out of the metaphore and into plain speech. The argument itself may be quite a good one and may look impressive. But the whole argument may be based upon a lie and it is this lie that will ultimately cause the whole argument to come crashing down.

We tried playing Jenga at the beach but it failed miserably.  Granted Jenga blocks are heavier than cards but I still don't think my card house will work unless I wet the sand first.  I will try building a card house the next time I go.

[Bill Robertson]

No the timing of his appearance. Plus his scenario had very few or no facts to back it up.

Dear Grahame, There is no mystery over the timing of my appearance. I have been reading posts on this website for a year or so, wondering whether to share information and ideas. I decided to share some information. I have no other agenda; I'm not here to wind anyone up. Now, as to the facts, in my original post please see below.

FACT: At 03:26 the situation at WHF was a domestic dispute; with no reported casualties

FACT: At 03:36 the situation at WHF was a domestic dispute; with no reported casualties

FACT: According to records made by PC West and Malcolm Bonnett, no communications occurred between 03:36 and 03:48 with any police vehicles

FACT: At 03:42 PC West received a report from BT that the telephone line at WHF was ‘busy’ i.e. engaged

FACT: At 03:48 the police arrived at Pages Lane and prepared for a siege

FACT: At 04:04 the FSU were withdrawn from Colchester before any report had been received from WHF (this was not broadcast until some 5 minutes later) in preparation for an armed siege

FACT: At 04:08 approximately Acting Inspector Targrass reported to Chief Superintendent Harris a “shooting incident” at WHF – before any report had been received from PS Bews

FACT: CA7 did not communicate any information from WHF until 04:09 – and there was still no report of any casualties or shots being fired

FACT: At 03:48 when CA7 containing PS Bews, PCs Saxby and Myall arrived at Pages Lane they parked 200 yards distant

FACT: Between 03:48 and 04:05 approximately CA7 and Jeremy Bamber waited for around 15 minutes before PS Bews and PC Myall approached WHF with Jeremy Bamber out in front

FACT: PC Saxby remained at the police car even though, in theory, there was nothing for him to do

FACT: PC Saxby was said to be waiting for further messages – where were they going to come from if Jeremy Bamber was already with them?

FACT: They stopped 100 feet from the Farmhouse and crouched behind a wall.

FACT: They saw that the kitchen lights were on

FACT: Jeremy Bamber pleaded with PS Bews to enter the property

FACT: PS Bews refused to go any closer than 100 feet

FACT: PS Bews refused to even consider trying to rescue anyone inside the Farmhouse

FACT: Essex Police abandoned the occupants of WHF to their fate

FACT: PS Bews ran away when they saw a figure in a bedroom window

FACT: CA5 with PCs Cracknell and Norcup took 50 minutes to complete an 18 mile journey to WHF on deserted roads, in an Area Car equipped with blue lights and two-tone siren. A journey that can be done in between 15-20 minutes.

FACT: None of 5 police officers who initially attended the scene approached the Farmhouse

FACT: None of the 5 police officers who attended WHF in CA5 or CA7 faced any disciplinary charges for dereliction of duty, despite the FACT that they did not attempt any rescue or even consider any rescue options
All of the above facts can be found in witness statements contained in the archive section of this website.

I would like you to consider some further facts please.

FACT: When PC Michael West received a telephone call at Chelmsford police station prior to 03:30 on 7th August, (around 03:26), PCs Cracknell and Norcup were in the control room with him

FACT: PC West did not mention that PCs Cracknell or Norcup were in the control room with him in either of his two witness statements

FACT: PC Cracknell and PC Norcup heard whatever telephone conversation PC West had at approximately 03:26

FACT: As a result of hearing the telephone conversation that took place at 03:26 PCs Cracknell and Norcup discussed the content of the telephone call with PC West

FACT: As a result of their conversation with PC West, at 03:33 CA5 containing PCs Cracknell and West commenced their journey to WHF from Chelmsford police station

FACT: Despite the point that the telephone call at 03:26 is highly controversial and subject to much dispute as to who the caller was (Nevill or Jeremy Bamber), Essex police have never asked PCs Cracknell or Norcup to divulge what they heard in the control room or indeed, to confirm that the caller was Jeremy Bamber.

FACT: PC West faced disciplinary charges over the falsification of an incident recording sheet. Even though PC West was in need of assistance, PCs Cracknell and Norcup did not come forward to support him or corroborate his version of events. I find this significant.

FACT: PC West in written evidence twice and after being questioned on oath at Jeremy’s trial, insisted that he received a telephone call from Jeremy Bamber at 03:36, not 03:26. He stated that he did not make a mistake in reading the time, despite what was subsequently reported

FACT: If PCs Cracknell and Norcup could confirm that it was Jeremy Bamber who called PC West at 03:26 rather than Nevill Bamber, they would be priceless witnesses for the prosecution – the FACT that they have not been required to give evidence is strongly suggestive that they in FACT heard a telephone call from Nevill Bamber, thus giving Jeremy Bamber an alibi.

FACT: All of this information is contained in witness statements in the archive section of the Bamber Forum website.

Once you have all these facts at your disposal you have to draw some conclusions. Inevitably one has to speculate somewhat, which is not a problem if speculation is based on facts. My conclusion is:

PCs Cracknell and Norcup know what was said to PC West at 03:26. They had a conversation with him; they must know whether it was Nevill or Jeremy Bamber who telephoned at 03:26. They have remained mute. If they could confirm that the call was from Jeremy Bamber they would have given evidence to that effect. This leads one to the inescapable conclusion that the 03:26 telephone call was from Nevill Bamber, which is exactly the impression given from looking at the documentary record made by Malcolm Bonnett at Essex Police HQ Information Room. “daughter gone berserk -has got hold of one of my guns”

[Adam]

Essex police have never said they heard from Neville. They would have told Jeremy on the night or in the month afterwards if they had.

Jeremy never claimed he was told that Neville phoned the police. And even gave a reason why Neville would not do this. He knew Neville not phoning the police would support his claim that Neville phoned his son instead.

Only decades later did Jeremy claim Neville phoned the police.

[Adam]

If all these are facts, they do not show proof of guilt or innocence.

Do you have a source please that says Jeremy begged the police to enter WHF.

[lookout]

I often wondered why nobody moved for nearly 3 hours outside WHF ! No wonder Neville had no faith in authority.

[lookout]

If all these are facts, they do not show proof of guilt or innocence.

Do you have a source please that says Jeremy begged the police to enter WHF.

You're a blooming embarrassment with your sources.

Jeremy himself wanted to go inside to speak to his father. You can trot off with your source for that one.

[scipio_usmc]

Dear Grahame, There is no mystery over the timing of my appearance. I have been reading posts on this website for a year or so, wondering whether to share information and ideas. I decided to share some information. I have no other agenda; I'm not here to wind anyone up. Now, as to the facts, in my original post please see below.

FACT: At 03:26 the situation at WHF was a domestic dispute; with no reported casualties

FACT: At 03:36 the situation at WHF was a domestic dispute; with no reported casualties

FACT: According to records made by PC West and Malcolm Bonnett, no communications occurred between 03:36 and 03:48 with any police vehicles

FACT: At 03:42 PC West received a report from BT that the telephone line at WHF was ‘busy’ i.e. engaged

FACT: At 03:48 the police arrived at Pages Lane and prepared for a siege

FACT: At 04:04 the FSU were withdrawn from Colchester before any report had been received from WHF (this was not broadcast until some 5 minutes later) in preparation for an armed siege

FACT: At 04:08 approximately Acting Inspector Targrass reported to Chief Superintendent Harris a “shooting incident” at WHF – before any report had been received from PS Bews

FACT: CA7 did not communicate any information from WHF until 04:09 – and there was still no report of any casualties or shots being fired

FACT: At 03:48 when CA7 containing PS Bews, PCs Saxby and Myall arrived at Pages Lane they parked 200 yards distant

FACT: Between 03:48 and 04:05 approximately CA7 and Jeremy Bamber waited for around 15 minutes before PS Bews and PC Myall approached WHF with Jeremy Bamber out in front

FACT: PC Saxby remained at the police car even though, in theory, there was nothing for him to do

FACT: PC Saxby was said to be waiting for further messages – where were they going to come from if Jeremy Bamber was already with them?

FACT: They stopped 100 feet from the Farmhouse and crouched behind a wall.

FACT: They saw that the kitchen lights were on

FACT: Jeremy Bamber pleaded with PS Bews to enter the property

FACT: PS Bews refused to go any closer than 100 feet

FACT: PS Bews refused to even consider trying to rescue anyone inside the Farmhouse

FACT: Essex Police abandoned the occupants of WHF to their fate

FACT: PS Bews ran away when they saw a figure in a bedroom window

FACT: CA5 with PCs Cracknell and Norcup took 50 minutes to complete an 18 mile journey to WHF on deserted roads, in an Area Car equipped with blue lights and two-tone siren. A journey that can be done in between 15-20 minutes.

FACT: None of 5 police officers who initially attended the scene approached the Farmhouse

FACT: None of the 5 police officers who attended WHF in CA5 or CA7 faced any disciplinary charges for dereliction of duty, despite the FACT that they did not attempt any rescue or even consider any rescue options
All of the above facts can be found in witness statements contained in the archive section of this website.

I would like you to consider some further facts please.

FACT: When PC Michael West received a telephone call at Chelmsford police station prior to 03:30 on 7th August, (around 03:26), PCs Cracknell and Norcup were in the control room with him

FACT: PC West did not mention that PCs Cracknell or Norcup were in the control room with him in either of his two witness statements

FACT: PC Cracknell and PC Norcup heard whatever telephone conversation PC West had at approximately 03:26

FACT: As a result of hearing the telephone conversation that took place at 03:26 PCs Cracknell and Norcup discussed the content of the telephone call with PC West

FACT: As a result of their conversation with PC West, at 03:33 CA5 containing PCs Cracknell and West commenced their journey to WHF from Chelmsford police station

FACT: Despite the point that the telephone call at 03:26 is highly controversial and subject to much dispute as to who the caller was (Nevill or Jeremy Bamber), Essex police have never asked PCs Cracknell or Norcup to divulge what they heard in the control room or indeed, to confirm that the caller was Jeremy Bamber.

FACT: PC West faced disciplinary charges over the falsification of an incident recording sheet. Even though PC West was in need of assistance, PCs Cracknell and Norcup did not come forward to support him or corroborate his version of events. I find this significant.

FACT: PC West in written evidence twice and after being questioned on oath at Jeremy’s trial, insisted that he received a telephone call from Jeremy Bamber at 03:36, not 03:26. He stated that he did not make a mistake in reading the time, despite what was subsequently reported

FACT: If PCs Cracknell and Norcup could confirm that it was Jeremy Bamber who called PC West at 03:26 rather than Nevill Bamber, they would be priceless witnesses for the prosecution – the FACT that they have not been required to give evidence is strongly suggestive that they in FACT heard a telephone call from Nevill Bamber, thus giving Jeremy Bamber an alibi.

FACT: All of this information is contained in witness statements in the archive section of the Bamber Forum website.

Once you have all these facts at your disposal you have to draw some conclusions. Inevitably one has to speculate somewhat, which is not a problem if speculation is based on facts. My conclusion is:

PCs Cracknell and Norcup know what was said to PC West at 03:26. They had a conversation with him; they must know whether it was Nevill or Jeremy Bamber who telephoned at 03:26. They have remained mute. If they could confirm that the call was from Jeremy Bamber they would have given evidence to that effect. This leads one to the inescapable conclusion that the 03:26 telephone call was from Nevill Bamber, which is exactly the impression given from looking at the documentary record made by Malcolm Bonnett at Essex Police HQ Information Room. “daughter gone berserk -has got hold of one of my guns”

There is not considerable dispute over whether Jeremy called police or Nevill called police.  There are some clowns who claim they believe Bonnet's log proves that he fielded a call from Nevill but the log doesn't suggest such at all and there is no way that someone claling the main police line could have reached Bonnet's call station anyway so the suggestions is not only not supported at all by any evidence but worse absurd. These clowns are rightly considered at best buffoons and at worst outright liars.

It is a fact that Jeremy called and spoke to PC West that is not in dispute at all.

As for your suggestions that the unarmed officers should have ran in the house to challenge someone supposedly armed and holding the others hostage- that is also absurd.  Even armed officers try instead to talk gunmen out and there are situations where police will wait outsid eof  alocation for mor ethan 24 hours.

Your arguments are simply not credible at all.

[lookout]

Lookout I think Bill is wrong on some of this? Although of course if he was really a copper then I must be wrong? But I was under the impression that it was normal police procedure to hold back in seige situations. Just as with fire fighters are told to evacuate their personnel if the building is in danger of falling. The first precaution in any seige situation is to protect their own officers. This must always take precedent in a suspected gun seige.
Also we must not forget that it was Jeremy himself who put the police on their guard. Take a look at the Iranian Embassy seige. The police held back and waited and negotiated. It was only when they killed one of the embassy staff and threw his body into the street that the Home Secretary decided to send in the SAS.
So although I do stand to be corrected the police were carrying out standard procedure. They were not being cowards for want of a better term. But they really didn't know what was behind those doors. Someone may have had a shotgun pointed at them for all they knew?

I understand what you're saying and what you mean,but when you KNOW there's a siege,surely the police would be prepared to storm in ? Not sit and twiddle their thumbs for nearly 3 hours.
As it happened,,Jeremy went down for more reasons than enough which wasn't his fault,whereas,if that time hadn't been wasted,then proof of his innocence would have been right there.

I feel very strongly about that time having been wasted. To me it's as bad as the fact that no times of death had been reported.

[Caroline]

I understand what you're saying and what you mean,but when you KNOW there's a siege,surely the police would be prepared to storm in ? Not sit and twiddle their thumbs for nearly 3 hours.
As it happened,,Jeremy went down for more reasons than enough which wasn't his fault,whereas,if that time hadn't been wasted,then proof of his innocence would have been right there.

I feel very strongly about that time having been wasted. To me it's as bad as the fact that no times of death had been reported.

If they had stormed the house immediately, I think it would have been clear what happened either way.

[lookout]

 They'd have had their answer there and then,Caroline. Time was of the essence.

[Jan]

I think bill is implying it was not a siege situation originally.  The call from Jeremy never stated any shots had been fired.  But he feels there was more info received by the time the second  car arrived that made them hold back. Why would they attempt contact for so long if they heard or saw nothing.  Also i am not convinced about some of the alleged conversation with Jeremy about Shiela as for some reason it does not appear in the original note books or statements of  the officers that were with him :D