Author Topic: A shooting incident at White House farm  (Read 35080 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

No-Bits

  • Guest
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #135 on: July 09, 2014, 11:36:PM »
I'm sure Roch will tell you all about it.

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17579
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #136 on: July 09, 2014, 11:39:PM »
Sorry Roch, I don't agree, if this was the case, there would be other examples and none have been provided. Hillsborough is completely different and there is no reason to believe the police KNEW EG was innocent.

Ok, the reasoning I'm using is as follows.

I believe Bill Robertson has called it right, when he asserts that once an ACC instructs / desires a certain outcome, that outcome will be striven for.  Perhaps this was even more so, back in the mid 80's.

I was once told by a person in the know, that ACC Simpson went ballistic when DCS (?) Jim Kenneally reached the same conclusion as DCI Taff Jones after having reviewed the case evidence.  So it sounds like ACC was very desirous for this outcome, regardless of the fact that they already had a prime suspect in Sheila Caffell.  It wasn't just Taff who thought it was not Jeremy.  The pathologist was not impressed by DS Stan Jones arguments either.

In order for the ACC to instruct / insist that a case around Bamber as culprit be made, the ACC him self must have been placed under some kind of pressure, whether it be from JM's evidence or whether it be from a disconcerting and purposful Robert Boutflour. 

There is a link between the relatives and a cabal of police officers which stinks to high heaven.  It is likely that  this link strongly contributed to the controversial silencer evidence.

The circs of how JM's evidence came to light are shrouded in controversy.  Where this fits in with ACC Simpson, I'm not sure.  Was he keen on her evidence being taken seriously because it potentially aided in the outcome he desired? 

How much went wrong on the day, in terms of errors, bad practice, direspectful behaviour towards the victims bodies (whether by training exercise or photographs of officers larking around), inconsistencies in crime scene photgraphy and inconsistencies in logs. 

I believe Andrew Hunter when he says the police did some terrible things in the 1980's.  I believe that special branch officers threatened victims of VIP paedophiles and threatened their supporters also. I believe that senior police officers closed down the investigations of junior officers in to VIP paedophiles. 

I believe that the relatives did have some inside info from some police and could have put pressure on ACC Simpson, who would have been concerned about any wrongdoing being exposed and the reputation of his force / his senior officers being potentially impugned, on his watch.   If running with Sheila all the way as being the main and only culprit equates to the press and potentially other officials asking awkward questions of EP (in response to the relatives who have turned to the press or other officials) then I do not believe it is beyond the realms of fantasy that Simpson would switch to prosecuting Jeremy Bamber in order to prevent such a scenario. 

I believe the police did have the power to 'frame' people and to conceal or manipulate evidence from pocket books to scientific exhibits.   However, they would not have time to do so at such short notice, after the tragedy, in the event of the relatives not being accommodated by EP and therefor stirring up all kinds of enquiries or unwanted attention on EP.  I've always thought that gunning for JB bought EP time.  It put them in control of the situation and control of the 'evidence'.

The person that was undoubtedly framed was a drug dealer who had alientated some of his relatives and lost his only support on the day of the killings.  Barbara Wilson claimed that Nevill knew Jeremy had commited the burglary but wanted to keep it 'in house'.  To me this suggests a degree of protection afforded to Jeremy.   Ann Eaton and Robert Boutflour were never going to afford him any such thing.  He was persona non grata and the police would effectively be framing a 'bad apple'.  Which if Campion's anecdote is to be taken seriously, goes some way to explaining Kelvin McKenzie's alleged remark, which I take to mean -  nobody really cares that bamber has been framed - he deserved it anyway.

I suspect that police officers rarely (if ever) moved to expose wrong-doing in terms of framing, externally.  They may raise concerns internally.  But you dont see them on newsnight saying that their ACC sanctioned the framing of a suspect when evidence pointed elsewhere, despite the fact that they themselves protested.

For this reason, I believe that any police officers who needed to unburden themselves would have done so internally and in doing so, felt expunged from guilt or responsibility thereafter, regardless of whether their concerns were disregarded.

I dont believe that this case has to mirror any other case.  This case was unique in it's own way, with its own pressures and its own things at stake. 

Fo all these reasons, I believe it is possible that the police framed a man that some of them knew to be innocent (to the extent that they knew Sheila was responsible).   It is also possible that some officers who were not in possession of all the facts that morning regarding the TFG's experiences may have genuinely felt Bamber knew more than he let on (and perhaps this might even prove to be the case one day). 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:43:PM by Roch »

No-Bits

  • Guest
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #137 on: July 09, 2014, 11:42:PM »
See.  :-\

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #138 on: July 10, 2014, 12:06:AM »
Ok, the reasoning I'm using is as follows.

I believe Bill Robertson has called it right, when he asserts that once an ACC instructs / desires a certain outcome, that outcome will be striven for.  Perhaps this was even more so, back in the mid 80's.

I was once told by a person in the know, that ACC Simpson went ballistic when DCS (?) Jim Kenneally reached the same conclusion as DCI Taff Jones after having reviewed the case evidence.  So it sounds like ACC was very desirous for this outcome, regardless of the fact that they already had a prime suspect in Sheila Caffell.  It wasn't just Taff who thought it was not Jeremy.  The pathologist was not impressed by DS Stan Jones arguments either.

In order for the ACC to instruct / insist that a case around Bamber as culprit be made, the ACC him self must have been placed under some kind of pressure, whether it be from JM's evidence or whether it be from a disconcerting and purposful Robert Boutflour. 

There is a link between the relatives and a cabal of police officers which stinks to high heaven.  It is likely that  this link strongly contributed to the controversial silencer evidence.

The circs of how JM's evidence came to light are shrouded in controversy.  Where this fits in with ACC Simpson, I'm not sure.  Was he keen on her evidence being taken seriously because it potentially aided in the outcome he desired? 

How much went wrong on the day, in terms of errors, bad practice, direspectful behaviour towards the victims bodies (whether by training exercise or photographs of officers larking around), inconsistencies in crime scene photgraphy and inconsistencies in logs. 

I believe Andrew Hunter when he says the police did some terrible things in the 1980's.  I believe that special branch officers threatened victims of VIP paedophiles and threatened their supporters also. I believe that senior police officers closed down the investigations of junior officers in to VIP paedophiles. 

I believe that the relatives did have some inside info from some police and could have put pressure on ACC Simpson, who would have been concerned about any wrongdoing being exposed and the reputation of his force / his senior officers being potentially impugned, on his watch.   If running with Sheila all the way as being the main and only culprit equates to the press and potentially other officials asking awkward questions of EP (in response to the relatives who have turned to the press or other officials) then I do not believe it is beyond the realms of fantasy that Simpson would switch to prosecuting Jeremy Bamber in order to prevent such a scenario. 

I believe the police did have the power to 'frame' people and to conceal or manipulate evidence from pocket books to scientific exhibits.   However, they would not have time to do so at such short notice, after the tragedy, in the event of the relatives not being accommodated by EP and therefor stirring up all kinds of enquiries or unwanted attention on EP.  I've always thought that gunning for JB bought EP time.  It put them in control of the situation and control of the 'evidence'.

The person that was undoubtedly framed was a drug dealer who had alientated some of his relatives and lost his only support on the day of the killings.  Barbara Wilson claimed that Nevill knew Jeremy had commited the burglary but wanted to keep it 'in house'.  To me this suggests a degree of protection afforded to Jeremy.   Ann Eaton and Robert Boutflour were never going to afford him any such thing.  He was persona non grata and the police would effectively be framing a 'bad apple'.  Which if Campion's anecdote is to be taken seriously, goes some way to explaining Kelvin McKenzie's alleged remark, which I take to mean -  nobody really cares that bamber has been framed - he deserved it anyway.

I suspect that police officers rarely (if ever) moved to expose wrong-doing in terms of framing, externally.  They may raise concerns internally.  But you dont see them on newsnight saying that their ACC sanctioned the framing of a suspect when evidence pointed elsewhere, despite the fact that they themselves protested.

For this reason, I believe that any police officers who needed to unburden themselves would have done so internally and in doing so, felt expunged from guilt or responsibility thereafter, regardless of whether their concerns were disregarded.

I dont believe that this case has to mirror any other case.  This case was unique in it's own way, with its own pressures and its own things at stake. 

Fo all these reasons, I believe it is possible that the police framed a man that some of them knew to be innocent (to the extent that they knew Sheila was responsible).   It is also possible that some officers who were not in possession of all the facts that morning regarding the TFG's experiences may have genuinely felt Bamber knew more than he let on (and perhaps this might even prove to be the case one day).

With all you have said, I still see no good enough reason why EP (not even ACC Simpson) would frame a man when they knew he wasn't responsible but knew who was. I do believe he was framed but ONLY because they thought he was guilty and didn't feel they had enough to convict. Initially, everyone readily accepted that Sheila was guilty so, had there been a call from Neville, the relatives would have been told about it when they questioned Jeremy's story. TJ wanted them off his back and given that there was no investigation going on as far as any other suspect was concerned, there was nothing to stop him saying that Jeremy's story checked out and that Neville had called the police himself and they have a record of it. There was no cover up in the beginning so how come no details  were forthcoming that corroborated Jeremy's story? No one claimed to have heard any shots and no one mentioned a call from Neville.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #139 on: July 10, 2014, 12:20:AM »
Sorry Mr Richardson but your theory is little more than a house of cards bult upon a sand foundation.

The foundation of your argument is that police knew the murders happened before they ever arrived on the scene and thus knew Jeremy was innocent.

The shootings occurring prior to police arriving doesn't help Jeremy one bit.  That is indeed what the prosecution asserted- that the murders happened prior to police arriving, in fact prior to police being called.

At any rate you have failed miserably at establishing that police were aware that there was shooting prior to their arrival.  Jeremy told unarmed police officers that his sister was inside with an arsenal at her disposal, told them that he had taken her shooting and that she had fired and thus was proficient with all the weapons in the house.  Trying to enter the house unarmed would endager their own lives but also those that she had inside who were considered potential hostages.  Evne when officers are armed they first try to talk to a gunman and try to get the gunman to surrender rather than rush inside immediately risking the hostages and potentially the officers as well.  Your entire premise that they had to know shots were fired and that Jeremy was thus innocent is nonsense.

They were operated simply based on the facts jeremy gave them which turned out to be lies.  He lied about Sheila having fired all the weapons in the house, having gone shooting with him, leaving the weapon out for her to grab and obviously much more.

Your claim about them planting evidence to frame Jeremy is on equally poor footing and doesn't seem to have been well thought out let alone supported by anything credible.

Aside from a complete absense of physical evidence to suggest Sheila shot or beat any of the victims the evidence proves she can't have killed herself. The evidence establishes that Sheila was shot while sitting down propped up against something.  Very shortly after she died while she was still bleeding someone did the following:

1) dragged her body flat so that the blood stopped dripping vertically down her neck ot her shoulder and arm and instead dripped down the side of her neck onto the floor where it pooled.

2) placed the bble in the pool of blood that formed after her death and repeatedly opened and closed it while the blood was still wet thus having the blood creating a mirror image on some pages

3) removed the moderator from the rifle and placed it in a box in the closet

Unless she died very close to the time that police entered the house there is no way they would be in a position to do any of these things and she still could not have shot herself with the moderator attached. There is not a shred of evidence that suggests she did die after police arrived on the scene let alone around the time they entered the house. Nor would police have any reason to do any of these things.

You need to go back to the drawing board.



Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #140 on: July 10, 2014, 12:24:AM »
A very thought provoking post Bill. Thanks for posting.

That's funny because you swore up and down that police followed proper procedure for what they thought might be a hostage situation and insisted there is no way they would have rushed in fast.

Richardson's claims that police should have rushed right in and the fact they didn't means they already knew shots have been fired is the complete opposite of what you argued in the past.

Instead of challenging the views you seem supportive now that it is coming from someone pro-Jeremy instead of anti-Jeremy. 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Martin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #141 on: July 10, 2014, 07:19:AM »
Oh you're back again with your conspiracy theories  ::). It doesn't matter whether Jones knew or not, senior police officers WOULD have known so why would they simply fall in line with a DS and a bunch of relatives. It's ridiculous to even suggest it;D. Also, you're post is deliberately misrepresenting my position - I have NEVER thought that Jeremy was framed in the full knowledge that Sheila was guilty!! NEVER!!

Nobody thinks that senior policemen fell in line with DS Jones’s supposed decision to frame Jeremy. Talk about misrepresentation! That’s what called a straw man.

The basic idea is that Stan Jones fell in line with the wishes of senior officers. There need only have been one or two of such people, so no grand circle of conspirators is required. And you say that you think that it’s “ridiculous” even to suggest that that could have happened.

You did not used to think it was "ridiculous", even if you’ve now reversed your position. So why not stop pretending to, even if you no longer subscribe to that view.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3961.msg164033.html#msg164033

“The relatives (or RWB) went above the investigating officers heads - it was obvious they weren't going to drop the idea about Jeremy, so it would have been only a matter of time before the whole mess was uncovered.”

« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 07:47:AM by Martin »

Offline Martin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #142 on: July 10, 2014, 07:37:AM »
Oh you're back again with your conspiracy theories  ::). It doesn't matter whether Jones knew or not, senior police officers WOULD have known so why would they simply fall in line with a DS and a bunch of relatives. It's ridiculous to even suggest it!  ;D. Also, you're post is deliberately misrepresenting my position - I have NEVER thought that Jeremy was framed in the full knowledge that Sheila was guilty!! NEVER!!

And where did I say that you did?  The point I'm making is that the people who fabricated evidence against Bamber did not think he was innocent, although there were others, not involved in the investigation, who knew it. Better just let it drop!



« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 07:56:AM by Martin »

No-Bits

  • Guest
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #143 on: July 10, 2014, 10:15:AM »
What words have I used that says I agree with him? In fact if you read my subsequent posts I said that before I accept his scenario I would like to read more of what he has to say. I'm just wondering why you are trying to read something into my post that is not there?
This is what I said: Now what can you deduce from those words that tells you that I agree with him?

I think that the timing of his appearance is more than a little suspect, not to mention the claims contained in his posts.

I wonder what his other username(s) is/are?  :-\

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17579
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #144 on: July 10, 2014, 10:38:AM »
Bill registered in January 2013.  I think I can recall seeing the username as a lurker on a number of occasions.  There are several lurkers.  I wish they would post, even if just to say 'hello'.

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #145 on: July 10, 2014, 10:55:AM »
And where did I say that you did?  The point I'm making is that the people who fabricated evidence against Bamber did not think he was innocent, although there were others, not involved in the investigation, who knew it. Better just let it drop!

I'll let it drop when you STOP using me to 'try' to further your argument. People will believe what they want to believe including myself!!
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline nugnug

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17250
    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #146 on: July 10, 2014, 12:34:PM »
Bill registered in January 2013.  I think I can recall seeing the username as a lurker on a number of occasions.  There are several lurkers.  I wish they would post, even if just to say 'hello'.

is it any wonder people dont want to post if there motives for doing so are constantly questioned.

No-Bits

  • Guest
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #147 on: July 10, 2014, 12:47:PM »
Funnily enough I agree with you. Unless he is the Australian crime writer? ;)

Mike you mean?  ;D

No-Bits

  • Guest
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #148 on: July 10, 2014, 12:55:PM »
No the timing of his appearance. Plus his scenario had very few or no facts to back it up.

Yes, I was just making a cheap shot that I believe our Australian friend to be a moniker for Mr T.  :P
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 12:56:PM by Harters »

Offline susan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 16196
Re: A shooting incident at White House farm
« Reply #149 on: July 10, 2014, 12:57:PM »
Harters I like it  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D