Re: Adoption Debate

[killingeve]

Hello Maggie whilst I know nothing about adoption I know the saying it is a wise child that knows its own Father.  Many children are brought up with a man who they believe to be their Father as indeed the Father believes he is the Father the Mother may know or not know who the child's Father is.  So in some cases some children think they know where they came from but only half know as their rellies on their Father's side are not really related at all.  Hope I am making sense as quite often I don't.  It is my opinion that some children are curious to know why they were given up for adoption others have no desire to know but I don't think it has anything to do with knowing who they are.  You can tell me I am talking rubbish and I will still love you and worship you   What I am trying to say it is all in the mind

So are you saying Susan that it is the 'telling' that is a problem ie if an adopted child was not told and this could be kept a secret then they would be none the wiser?  Perhaps I can agree to some degree but I do think it's a little more complex than that as the adoptive parents would know and I think this plays out as any 'differences' good or bad can be attributed to alien genes/birth family.  Plus if the birth parents don't have a birth child they may subconsciously or consciously compare the adopted child with a fantasy birth child.  All these potential complex interactions etc are not present in a birth family so surely the outcome must be different? 

I have a male friend who was adopted as a very small child and didn't learn of his adoption until he was in his 30's/40's, may have been when his adoptive parents died, but he said he had always felt different but didn't know why.

I have often wondered if I didn't know if I would suspect anything or not    And yet I see so many physical and mental similarities with my birth family that I think there must be something quite profound about growing up without genetic markers which perhaps we are currently unaware of    Your example above is based on the child having 50% genetic markers not 0% 

It seems to me that the more science moves on the thinking is more and more towards genetics winning out over nurture 

 

[maggie]

So are you saying Susan that it is the 'telling' that is a problem ie if an adopted child was not told and this could be kept a secret then they would be none the wiser?  Perhaps I can agree to some degree but I do think it's a little more complex than that as the adoptive parents would know and I think this plays out as any 'differences' good or bad can be attributed to alien genes/birth family.  Plus if the birth parents don't have a birth child they may subconsciously or consciously compare the adopted child with a fantasy birth child.  All these potential complex interactions etc are not present in a birth family so surely the outcome must be different? 

I have a male friend who was adopted as a very small child and didn't learn of his adoption until he was in his 30's/40's, may have been when his adoptive parents died, but he said he had always felt different but didn't know why.

I have often wondered if I didn't know if I would suspect anything or not    And yet I see so many physical and mental similarities with my birth family that I think there must be something quite profound about growing up without genetic markers which perhaps we are currently unaware of    Your example above is based on the child having 50% genetic markers not 0% 

It seems to me that the more science moves on the thinking is more and more towards genetics winning out over nurture 

Hi NN
I have no doubt at all that genetics ie nature is far more powerfull than nurture.  We all benefit from good nurturing as children but while that can bring out the very best in a child or indeed abusive nurturing the very worst the basic genetic character ie inherited genes have to be our default.
My children speak very much as I do and each other and have many learned characteristics of mine but when they are with their birth families they fit so well with them it's unmistakeable and it's lovely to see. 

[killingeve]

I always felt it was quite important for wellbeing that adopted kids needed to know as much about where they came from as possible  some children seem to need the info more than others. Wonder if Sheila had known more about her roots if it would have helped? Jeremy seemed to take his adoption in his stride....who knows if that was because of his laid back personality or because he was more aware of who he was?  I do believe By the time Sheila met her birth mum she was far too ill to be able to cope with this without professional support, particulary because of her unstable relationship with June.

I agree with all the above Maggie.

My adopted brother must be the most laid back person in the world and he showed no interest at all in knowing until he had some genetic problem with his knuckles in his early 40's.  (He didn't know anything about his background either) I on the other hand, when I hit my early 20's, really wanted/needed to know but then I'm very curious by nature as you know    Think it depends on the person's character and to some extent the relationship with the adoptive parents and how well they identify with the adoptive family overall.  Think in SC's case she had a very toxic/dysfunctional relationship with June and I don't think she identified with her adoptive family at all.  As I've said before the Bambers/Boutflours and Eatons appear to be practical farming types and if you look at SC's genetic family, academics and intellectuals, they are completely mismatched.  I wouldn't have said that I was mismatched with my adoptive family but I was stunned by similarities with my birth family particularly paternal.  I don't believe this is all coincidence or wishful thinking on my part I think it must be down to genetics but then would I think this if they were undesirables? 

[susan]

Hi N/N/Maggie  I am not saying adopted children should not be told about their adoption I am saying it is every individual's right to decide whether or not to trace their birth parents.  Jeremy did not appear interested and I myself feel this would not have been detrimental to the way he lived his life and his thoughts on life. IMO we all become what we are to a certain extent from the genes we inherit and the way we are brought up hence give me the child and I will give you the man.  My knowledge on adoption is limited to say the least it is just my take on it and I could be entirely wrong.

[susan]

Hello Maggie  what if the hospital where I was born gave my parents the wrong baby and I am not their birth child it does happen.  Maybe it would be a relief to them

[maggie]

I agree with all the above Maggie.

My adopted brother must be the most laid back person in the world and he showed no interest at all in knowing until he had some genetic problem with his knuckles in his early 40's.  (He didn't know anything about his background either) I on the other hand, when I hit my early 20's, really wanted/needed to know but then I'm very curious by nature as you know    Think it depends on the person's character and to some extent the relationship with the adoptive parents and how well they identify with the adoptive family overall.  Think in SC's case she had a very toxic/dysfunctional relationship with June and I don't think she identified with her adoptive family at all.  As I've said before the Bambers/Boutflours and Eatons appear to be practical farming types and if you look at SC's genetic family, academics and intellectuals, they are completely mismatched.  I wouldn't have said that I was mismatched with my adoptive family but I was stunned by similarities with my birth family particularly paternal.  I don't believe this is all coincidence or wishful thinking on my part I think it must be down to genetics but then would I think this if they were undesirables? 

Yes and my children came from a different culture and very different status but they are still very, very like their mothers and siblings...pretty amazing really .

[maggie]

Hello Maggie  what if the hospital where I was born gave my parents the wrong baby and I am not their birth child it does happen.  Maybe it would be a relief to them

Hi Susie, sorry just been returning my princess.
I agree with you that no one should be forced to meet their natural parents.  I suppose my children's case was more extreme for particular reasons but I did encourage them to find their roots.  One always wanted to and one wasn't interested but still went looking so I suppose it's just really important that adoptees are given the facts and allowed to make up thier own minds.

[killingeve]

Hi NN
I have no doubt at all that genetics ie nature is far more powerfull than nurture.  We all benefit from good nurturing as children but while that can bring out the very best in a child or indeed abusive nurturing the very worst the basic genetic character ie inherited genes have to be our default.
My children speak very much as I do and each other and have many learned characteristics of mine but when they are with their birth families they fit so well with them it's unmistakeable and it's lovely to see. 

Its good for you and your children and their birth families that you can all meet up and no one has to 'own' anyone Maggie.  Neither myself or my brother would dream of discussing our birth families with our adoptive parents particularly our adoptive mother.  The thought of it fills me with horror.  I can't imagine what her reaction would be, drama and guilt I imagine.  Too much to contemplate.  But then again you were always up front with your children whereas the only conversation I've ever had was the one when I was told at about 5 yoa    I do have some sympathy with adoptive parents though as back then reunions were not a possibility and all that then changed with the law in 1975.

[susan]

Maggie I totally agree children should be given choices in matters as important as adoption think my roots are somewhere down Lime Street think I'll leave um there

[Jane]

My own view is that all adopted children should know about their backgrounds then they have the choice about whether they follow up or not on the received knowledge. It has been my experience that girls have a greater interest in their routes than do boys. NaNu, who is so good at turning up stats can probably give a more definitive view on that, than I.

[killingeve]

Hey April and Maggie

Here's a link about gender differences/reasons etc why adoptees search out their birth famililes. 

[maggie]

Hey April and Maggie

Here's a link about gender differences/reasons etc why adoptees search out their birth famililes.

Had a quick look NN but will look properly tomorrow.  It looks really interesting, particularly about the identity.  Am hoping my daughter's latest visit will help the two parts to merge and mature.  Surely any mother should just want their children to be happy and secure within themselves.

[Steve_uk]

Andrew Pierce. https://youtu.be/MF5HCNrl3LM