Author Topic: Re: Adoption Debate  (Read 22929 times)

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Lugg

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Re: Adoption Debate
« on: February 27, 2013, 01:05:PM »
Maggie...please...how on earth can you justify any aspect of your post as follows below.

I believe June was a totally unsuitable adoptive mother.  I also believe she chose to adopt with ambivalent feelings.  Imo this was selfish and unfair to all concerned and is reflected in the sad outcomes:

June mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric care - *1959 and 1981

Sheila mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric care - 1983 and 1985

Jeremy convicted of murdering 5 members of his adoptive family - 1985

*Caused solely by her decision to adopt Sheila as per Dr Ferguson's witness statement.

My criticism of June relates to June not adoptive mothers.

I might well criticise the mothers of Shannon Matthews and Baby P but I am not criticising birth mothers.
NN sorry to seem a bit thick. But which are your words and which are Maggie's?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:21:PM by Caroline »

Offline susan

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 01:23:PM »
Hi Lugg

I think basically N/N and Maggie have totally different views on the adoption issue.  Maggie as we know is the Mother of two adopted children and N/N herself was adopted.  I think maybe they are both seeing things from a different perspective and I know nothing about adoption so it would be unfair of me to comment further.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:22:PM by Caroline »

Offline maggie

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 04:16:PM »
Hi Lugg

I think basically N/N and Maggie have totally different views on the adoption issue.  Maggie as we know is the Mother of two adopted children and N/N herself was adopted.  I think maybe they are both seeing things from a different perspective and I know nothing about adoption so it would be unfair of me to comment further.
Anything I have disagreed about with NN was many months ago, i disagree with her or anyone else making assumptions about June. NN believes June adopted reluctantly and every other assumption she makes follows from that. I say I dont know what June's feelings about adoption were and she very well may have longed for a baby.  We dont onow the whole truth of Sheila' relationship with June...relationships are complex things. I believe Sheila was a happy child and all the troubles started in adolescance.  We dont know when Sheila started showing early signs of her illness which probably would not have been recognised by june and ralph and may have been seen as wickedness by June.
That is my argument but it is only a point of view and as far as I am concerned I have the right to hold it. I have never felt any animosity to NN although her views are different, in fact I considered her a friend until she made it clear she didnt see me as a friend of hers.
I wont be commenting anymore about this you'll all be relieved to hear. ;D
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:23:PM by Caroline »

Offline susan

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 04:41:PM »
Hello Maggie

as I said earlier I know nothing about adoption but do have the sense to know each individual case will be different.  As with children born to parents they can grow up and be a big disappointment this can also apply to children who are adopted.  Quite often birth/natural parents have great expectations for their children and quite often parents can feel let down.  The most important thing with children they thrive on love and that can be given equally by a birth Mother or by a Mother who has adopted.  We know this from the number of children abused by their own birth parents who are never given the chance to prove themselves.  As far as June Bamber is concerned I am sure her intentions for wanting to adopt were she felt she had love to give and could give children a good home and upbringing. How it progressed from being babies to teenage children how would we know.  I have a friend who has not seen her birth son for 20 years he had a good upbringing and education and when she asked him what the problem was he said you are not what I want as parents.  So too children can have expectations of their parents and can be disappointed as they grow up.  The children in my opinion have the same rights to opinions as the parents.  This may sound rather harsh but parents bring children into this world to do their best and once the child becomes an adult they are allowed to make their own choices and as a Mother if my child is happy so am I.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:23:PM by Caroline »

Offline lookout

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 04:52:PM »
Well said Susan. It makes no difference whatsoever, adopted or not and shouldn't remain an issue,,as to how a child " turns out " into the adult life.It can,and does happen to anybody.
I can't be doing with anyone who tries to make something of absolutely nothing.
If June had given birth to a daughter,,,who's to say she wouldn't have turned out like Sheila did anyway.?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:23:PM by Caroline »

Offline maggie

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 05:02:PM »
Well said Susan. It makes no difference whatsoever, adopted or not and shouldn't remain an issue,,as to how a child " turns out " into the adult life.It can,and does happen to anybody.
I can't be doing with anyone who tries to make something of absolutely nothing.
If June had given birth to a daughter,,,who's to say she wouldn't have turned out like Sheila did anyway.?
lookout/susie I do agree with both of you.  I get pretty tired with the playing of the adoptive card by some. Life is different for each one of us and we have to deal with it as best we can. Imo

Offline susan

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 05:05:PM »
Hi lookout  I know a guy who lives not too far from me (I know some strange people) and him and his lovely son ran an engraving business and got on so well until the son confessed he was gay.  The Father/son relationship was destroyed the son was disowned and thrown out of the house and business.  Now is that what love is all about.  No. We love our children unconditionally and the son has gone onto make a great success of a new business and a wonderful relationship with his partner. The Father will die a lonely old man. :(
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:24:PM by Caroline »

Offline maggie

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 05:28:PM »
Hi lookout  I know a guy who lives not too far from me (I know some strange people) and him and his lovely son ran an engraving business and got on so well until the son confessed he was gay.  The Father/son relationship was destroyed the son was disowned and thrown out of the house and business.  Now is that what love is all about.  No. We love our children unconditionally and the son has gone onto make a great success of a new business and a wonderful relationship with his partner. The Father will die a lonely old man. :(
You are so right susiex
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:24:PM by Caroline »

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 08:53:AM »
NN sorry to seem a bit thick. But which are your words and which are Maggie's?

Morning Lugg

Yes I agree it is rather confusing!

The words in the main post are mine; the words in the attached word doc at the bottom of the post are Maggie's.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3966.msg163744.html#msg163744
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:24:PM by Caroline »

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2013, 09:16:AM »
Anything I have disagreed about with NN was many months ago, i disagree with her or anyone else making assumptions about June. NN believes June adopted reluctantly and every other assumption she makes follows from that. I say I dont know what June's feelings about adoption were and she very well may have longed for a baby.  We dont onow the whole truth of Sheila' relationship with June...relationships are complex things. I believe Sheila was a happy child and all the troubles started in adolescance.  We dont know when Sheila started showing early signs of her illness which probably would not have been recognised by june and ralph and may have been seen as wickedness by June.
That is my argument but it is only a point of view and as far as I am concerned I have the right to hold it. I have never felt any animosity to NN although her views are different, in fact I considered her a friend until she made it clear she didnt see me as a friend of hers.
I wont be commenting anymore about this you'll all be relieved to hear. ;D

Morning Maggie

You know my views on June/adoption/attachment disorders as I have stated them on this forum clearly and respectfully; I will not be changing them unless I see some firm evidence to the contrary :)

With regard to whether or not I see you as a friend I like to think that I can exchange posts on this forum with ALL posters in a friendly manner regardless of any differences in background, character, views held etc, etc  :)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:24:PM by Caroline »

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2013, 11:20:AM »
Well said Susan. It makes no difference whatsoever, adopted or not and shouldn't remain an issue,,as to how a child " turns out " into the adult life.It can,and does happen to anybody.
I can't be doing with anyone who tries to make something of absolutely nothing.
If June had given birth to a daughter,,,who's to say she wouldn't have turned out like Sheila did anyway.?

Morning Lookout

The crucial factor in the June/Sheila/adoption scenario is the fact that June suffered depression caused by her decision to adopt Sheila.  Had the cause of June's depression been non-specific or caused by  some other external factor eg loss of someone close, physical illness etc, etc I would probably think it quite unremarkable but the fact that Dr Ferguson states it was caused by June's decision to adopt Sheila strikes me as most remarkable especially given the outcomes.  It also raises questions about the quality of care Sheila received during crucial periods, eg was she left crying for hours on end as apparently she recalled doing as stated in Colin's book?  I would think it unlikely that June went from being non-depressed and meeting Sheila's needs to being so depressed she required in-patient psychiatric care overnight.  In any event June's hospitalisation resulted in multiple primary caregivers during the crucial bonding period.

Biologists and psychologists etc now believe babies bond in utero and that disruptions in bonding can cause the sort of problems evidenced with Sheila ie low self-esteem, depression, under-achievement at school etc. 

As I think you know I was adopted at 6 wks of age.  However I went from my birth mother to adoptive mother (just a short car journey with a social worker from my birth mother to the adoption agency where I was handed over to my adoptive parents).  As far as I'm aware my adoptive mother has never suffered from any mental illness and was therefore able to attend to my needs as a birth mother would with no further disruptions in bonding.  According to my parents I was a good baby and rarely cried  :).  They've also stated that I was never any problem ie as a child, teenager or young adult. 

However, with Sheila she went from her birth mother to June (possibly foster mother before June?) a.n other whilst June was in hospital and then back to June.  I feel sure that if Sheila found herself today with the likes of Dr Ferguson with the full history ie adoption and June's depression c1959 the first thing that would scream out would be 'attachment disorder'.  Had Sheila have been treated in her teens when issues first started presenting then she may not have developed full blow schizophrenia. 

The above is my view but I accept that if Sheila had remained with her birth mother she may well have experienced the same issues and full blow schizophrenia.  Basically what I'm saying is that Sheila's early start in life put her at risk of the types of issues and illness she went on to develop.

If Jeremy was being tried today I would imagine much more would be made of the above.  I find it odd that 3 out of 4 family members, where none were genetically related, developed either serious mental illness or have been convicted of multiple murders.  What would you say the statistical chances were of that happening based on randomness alone?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:25:PM by Caroline »

Caroline R

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2013, 01:40:PM »
I have moved these posts from their original thread (and given them a new title) as they were not part of that topic.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:25:PM by Caroline »

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2013, 01:50:PM »
Hi Caroline

I was simply responding to posts made by other posters so are you going to lift those too as they seem to have got left behind?  :-\

I'm not too keen on threads being started in my name that I haven't actually started  :-\.  I really can't imagine this being a hot topic.  I would imagine that the original thread would have gravitated back somewhere along its original theme as they do.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:25:PM by Caroline »

Caroline R

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2013, 01:57:PM »
Hi Caroline

I was simply responding to posts made by other posters so are you going to lift those too as they seem to have got left behind?  :-\

I'm not too keen on threads being started in my name that I haven't actually started  :-\.  I really can't imagine this being a hot topic.  I would imagine that the original thread would have gravitated back somewhere along its original theme as they do.

Hi NN,

Sorry, I just didn't see the other posts but I will look back and move those too. There was lots of interest in the adoption debate last time, at least here it gives all those interested a chance to debate it rather than being wrapped up in another topic. I must admit, I find it hard to read through a topic that drifts from one thing to another - I get bored and end up moving on. Just give it a go!!  :D
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:25:PM by Caroline »

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2013, 02:19:PM »
Hi Caroline

Yes ok thanks.  Can't imagine we will stand much chance of 'pulling' on this thread though ie don't expect much through traffic from the male species save perhaps Steve_uk may venture in if we're lucky of course ;D

It's interesting though that male posters rarely comment on the family relationships etc and tend to stick to the 'hard' evidence eg scene of crime, gun(s), silencer(s), blood, phone logs etc.  Whereas female posters appear to consider both?  :-\
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:26:PM by Caroline »