Author Topic: They denied seeing a figure at bedroom window, but forget about female body...  (Read 19207 times)

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Offline tyler

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I'm sorry,but personally I don't buy the suggestion that "mistakes" were made in the logs. If they were mistakes they would have been rectified quickly as the raid team were using open mikes and events would have been recorded as they were happening.

Caroline R

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I'm sorry,but personally I don't buy the suggestion that "mistakes" were made in the logs. If they were mistakes they would have been rectified quickly as the raid team were using open mikes and events would have been recorded as they were happening.

Well said Tyler!! I fully agree.

guest7363

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Ralph,,,I can appreciate your way of thinking,,but I tend to put myself in his shoes as I'd have kicked up a stink and certainly wouldn't have been calm. My language would have been choice,,and I'd have continued in the same vain while being locked up. There's no right or wrong way of pleading innocence,,it rests upon the type of person you are to start with,and people act differently.
I'd have just been hopping mad. Even inside,,I'd be leading a merry dance,,,but my own actions would not last the same as Jeremys' have,and continue to do so,as he's calm and collected,,,so therefore,, comparing two sets of behaviour it would  be me who'd appear to be the guilty one more so than someone who takes it in their stride.
He has focussed on his writing to pass the time,,,and to also,I'm sure,,try and make head and tail of the case.
I still don't think he expected what he got though. His past thieving wasn't done alone and was instigated by others. That didn't bode well at the trial,,but I didn't see anyone else taking the wrap either,,nor did Jeremy name names. He was a patsy in the making,,soft lad that he was.
The man has no anger or bitterness in him at all. He's fit and healthy. Look at the way other lifers have gone who are/were guilty.
There's something keeping Jeremy going,,and that's his thought of freedom from a terrible mistake that's been made.
Great response lookout, you are a credit to this forum,  love writting with you.  I think i need to go back on the trinity ship to get my christian beliefs back on track lol?

Offline mike tesko

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We then have the raid team saying that before they forced entry into the premises, one of them looks in through the kitchen window and reports that he can see a female body, yet the occupants of CA07 do not relay this message to the control room. This is supposedly followed by a forced entry into the premises and the apparent discovery that the body which had been seen through the kitchen window, was a dead male body, not a dead female body - yet the occupants of CA07 did not relay any of this to the control room, instead at 7:38am, they report that the body of one dead male, AND the body of one dead female was found upon entry to the kitchen...
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 05:46:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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We then have the raid team saying that before they forced entry into the premises, one of them looks in through the kitchen window and reports that he can see a female body, yet the occupants of CA07 do not relay this message to the control room. This is supposedly followed by a forced entry into the premises and the apparent discovery that the body which had been seen through the kitchen window, was a dead male body, not a dead female body - yet the occupants of CA07 did not relay any of this to the control room, instead at 7:38am, they report that the body of one dead male, AND the body of one dead female was found upon entry to the kitchen...

This sets off a chain of events, where numerous parties, including the Divisional Connander; Coroners Officer, and the police surgeon all being contacted regarding the discovery of two bodies, not one. it is important and necessary to look at the timings of any messages which make mention of two bodies -  7:38am, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead fenale found upon entry to the jitchen; 7:45am, a murder, and a suicide, 7:48am, will you contact your oolice surgeon and coroners officer regarding two bodies..

So, there lies the reuth of the matter, 10 minutes after the raid team set foott in the kitchen, it is still a xase of the ooluce having found two bodies upon entry, a male, and a female, a murder, and a suice...
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 06:48:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jane

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You fundamentally misunderstand or misconstrue the relationship between Jeremy and Ralph yet again. As a child Jeremy wanted to be so like Nevill,so much so that he would eat the same foods at breakfast and listen attentively to his father's knowledge of farming and astrology.

The mystery here is exactly when things changed and Jeremy became to despise his father. He must have received mixed societal messages about the power of money and the status it brought,yet this somehow did not rub off on Jeremy's attitude to his father,whom he would delight in antagonizing at the slightest opportunity with any guests which came to the house,including the relatives.

Why should this be so? Did Jeremy blame his father for sending him away to Gresham's for eight long solitary years,and then expecting him to pick up farming from the grass roots upwards whilst Jeremy's contemporaries had attained a higher station in life? Why did Jeremy feel so resentful that he refused to wear a suit for his father on social occasions, so resentful that he tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch for the farm labourers to clean up before going off in a huff back to Goldhanger,why did he feel so resentful that he sprayed a neighbour's field with weedkiller..all these actions were symptomatic of someone who had had enough of farming and who was going though the motions that last year,praying that an opportunity would present itself as it did that August when he in one fell swoop could make a fresh start by exterminating five people who meant nothing to him at all.


Steve, there really are times when you display arrogance beyond words. I detect in your words little in the way of humility and no understanding at all of humanity, and yet you dare to tell me that I "misunderstand or misconstrue" a relationship. Leaving Jeremy aside for one moment, the lessons and emotions any of us, and that includes you, Steve, learn from birth until around age 5, will be those we hold onto for life. The feelings we have of love, trust, hero worship during those years will remain despite that as we age, our idol may be discovered to have feet of clay. We are much more likely to berate ourselves for investing in this person, than turn against them. Most small boys, at some point, want to be like their father. There will, inevitably, come a point when the growing child wants to break away from the setdown rules, see their idol as being behind the times, their thoughts outdated. The cub will challenge the Alpha male, it's part of the learning/growing curve, but all things being equal and providing the father doesn't step too far outside of what is considered acceptable, at a certain age it is likely that this metamorphasis will occur.

These "fundemental" rules apply whether your name is Jeremy Bamber or "Steve uk".

Offline maggie

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Steve, there really are times when you display arrogance beyond words. I detect in your words little in the way of humility and no understanding at all of humanity, and yet you dare to tell me that I "misunderstand or misconstrue" a relationship. Leaving Jeremy aside for one moment, the lessons and emotions any of us, and that includes you, Steve, learn from birth until around age 5, will be those we hold onto for life. The feelings we have of love, trust, hero worship during those years will remain despite that as we age, our idol may be discovered to have feet of clay. We are much more likely to berate ourselves for investing in this person, than turn against them. Most small boys, at some point, want to be like their father. There will, inevitably, come a point when the growing child wants to break away from the setdown rules, see their idol as being behind the times, their thoughts outdated. The cub will challenge the Alpha male, it's part of the learning/growing curve, but all things being equal and providing the father doesn't step too far outside of what is considered acceptable, at a certain age it is likely that this metamorphasis will occur.

These "fundemental" rules apply whether your name is Jeremy Bamber or "Steve uk".
Excellet post April. You are so right and expressed so well :).

Offline mike tesko

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By 8:10am, the bodies of the other three victims had been found upstairs...

PS Adams was in charge of the firearms operation at the scene until about 8:15am, five bodies found, two bodies downstairs, a further three bodies upstairs, eavesdrop link to farm cut off, police surgeon, Divisional DCI, and others, including Coroners officer to be notified regarding discovery of these two bodies - seems like everybody knew that two bodies were found upon entry, not one body...

Non of these other people seem to want to talk about when they were first contacted regarding the discovery of these bodies, they don't identify who told them, what they told them, and how they felt after arrining at the scene to find that bodies of victims were distributed diffeeently around the farmhouse than what they had originally been told. It has all been washed over to try to hide what took place...
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 08:03:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline lookout

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Great response lookout, you are a credit to this forum,  love writting with you.  I think i need to go back on the trinity ship to get my christian beliefs back on track lol?


Dear Ralph,,,I thank you for the compliment,,,how very kind of you. I too enjoy your posts,you're a gent.
I write from lifes' experiences in general,,past and present. ( not a book in sight )
     

Caroline R

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You fundamentally misunderstand or misconstrue the relationship between Jeremy and Ralph yet again. As a child Jeremy wanted to be so like Nevill,so much so that he would eat the same foods at breakfast and listen attentively to his father's knowledge of farming and astrology.

The mystery here is exactly when things changed and Jeremy became to despise his father. He must have received mixed societal messages about the power of money and the status it brought,yet this somehow did not rub off on Jeremy's attitude to his father,whom he would delight in antagonizing at the slightest opportunity with any guests which came to the house,including the relatives.

Why should this be so? Did Jeremy blame his father for sending him away to Gresham's for eight long solitary years,and then expecting him to pick up farming from the grass roots upwards whilst Jeremy's contemporaries had attained a higher station in life? Why did Jeremy feel so resentful that he refused to wear a suit for his father on social occasions, so resentful that he tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch for the farm labourers to clean up before going off in a huff back to Goldhanger,why did he feel so resentful that he sprayed a neighbour's field with weedkiller..all these actions were symptomatic of someone who had had enough of farming and who was going though the motions that last year,praying that an opportunity would present itself as it did that August when he in one fell swoop could make a fresh start by exterminating five people who meant nothing to him at all.

You fundamentally misunderstand or misconstrue the relationship between Jeremy and Ralph yet again. As a child Jeremy wanted to be so like Nevill,so much so that he would eat the same foods at breakfast and listen attentively to his father's knowledge of farming and astrology.
nothing to him at all.

Ha, ha!! How completely arrogant!! You have no idea what their relationship was like other than what you have gained from reading 'other people's opinions' in books!!

The mystery here is exactly when things changed and Jeremy became to despise his father. He must have received mixed societal messages about the power of money and the status it brought,yet this somehow did not rub off on Jeremy's attitude to his father,whom he would delight in antagonizing at the slightest opportunity with any guests which came to the house,including the relatives.

There is NO mystery, he didn't despise him, he was a young man trying to find his own way in the world and simply thought he knew better. Just like any other 'normal, healthy' young male of his age!! This isn't Dickensian Britain Steve!! Jeremy may have been arrogant (a trait you yourself are NOT unfamiliar with!!), that doesn't make him a killer!!

Why should this be so? Did Jeremy blame his father for sending him away to Gresham's for eight long solitary years,and then expecting him to pick up farming from the grass roots upwards whilst Jeremy's contemporaries had attained a higher station in life? Why did Jeremy feel so resentful that he refused to wear a suit for his father on social occasions, so resentful that he tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch for the farm labourers to clean up before going off in a huff back to Goldhanger,why did he feel so resentful that he sprayed a neighbour's field with weedkiller..all these actions were symptomatic of someone who had had enough of farming and who was going though the motions that last year,praying that an opportunity would present itself as it did that August when he in one fell swoop could make a fresh start by exterminating five people who meant nothing to him at all.

He refused to wear a suit? Ha, ha!! How many young men do you imagine this would apply to today?
Tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch – no one said he wasn't a spoiled brat!
Sprayed a neighbours field with weed killer – again, this doesn't make him a killer of anything other than plants and is yet another example of his arrogance.

Where is the evidence that Jeremy was ever violent towards someone else? You're always asking for evidence of Sheila being violent towards others. Where is the evidence of Jeremy's violence? Please don't use the examples of his squabbles with Julie!!

guest7363

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Bews, Myall and Jeremy, all saw someone who was alive inside the main bedroom, which caused Bews to return to the patrol car parked up in Pages lane, where he passed a situation report about what he had just seen, requesting that the firearms be deployed to the scene, which is what occurred. The fireams team did not just turn out to investigate a trick of light, they attended because what Bews told the control room, warranted dealing with...

It doesn't matter who said what to whom on the telephone, what matters most is that at the time police told Jeremy that all his family had been killed, he automatically presumed police had shot them when they forced thier way into the farmhouse.He had evrry reason to believe that until police actually went into the premises, that everyone was still very much alive. He had been talking to his father on the phone and knew he was alive, and because his father had not said anyone had been shot, why on earth should he think everybody else must be dead? Futhermore,  tge behaviour of the police at the scene conditioned his mind to thonl that spmeone was alive inside the premises, becaise the police were negotiating with them by various means, and Jeremy must have thought that whatever was being spoken about was what was preventing the police from going into the premises...
Could well have happened like this though? Shortly before 05.25, a challenge was issued using a loudhailer to anyone inside the property.
The wireless operator pre-empted events and recorded “Firearms team are in conversation with a person inside the farm”. However, the call to persons inside met only with silence. The wireless operator updated the log at 05.29 – “From CA7 – Challenge to persons inside house met with no response”

Additional firearms officers arrived at 06.45 and were greeted by Sergeant Bews. Fresh on the scene, PC Woodcock from the Firearms Training Department was told by his colleagues that a siege was underway and a young woman with mental health issues was presumed either to have killed everyone or to be holding them hostage. Whatever had taken place, there had been no response from anyone in the farm at any time, and because of this the group were preparing to force entry into the property. If anyone was thought to be alive or holding hostage they would have let Jeremy talk to them or brought in negotiators first and foremost there was children in there,  they could not risk storming in, because they had no response they prepaired forced entry.  The phone lines were open all that was heard was the dog barking. 

Inspector Montgomery and Police Sergeant Adams put together the raid team, consisting of PCs Collins, Delgado, Woodcock, Hall, Alexander-Smart and acting Sergeant Manners. The team, working from a plan of the building sketched by Jeremy, divided the property into “White”, “Green” and “Black” zones. Woodcock was nominated to break down the rear door using a sledgehammer. Collins and Delgado lined up on one side of the door. To their right was the kitchen window. Collins peered inside and reported seeing the body of a woman.

The door gave way when Woodcock pounded it several times with the sledgehammer. As the armed officer led the others into the property, he turned into the kitchen and saw the same person witnessed by Collins, obviously dead. In fact it was not a woman but 61-year old Nevill Bamber. A chair was on its side to the left of an Aga oven, and Nevill’s corpse was sat awkwardly on one edge of the backrest. He was slumped forward with arms at his side and his head fully inside a silver-topped bucket – in fact a coal scuttle. Blood had run thickly down the sides of this hod. The body was facing the window Collins had looked through, and all that was visible of Nevill’s head was a dishevelled shock of grey hair. This was why Collins had mistaken farmer Bamber for an old woman.

With Collins having stated over his police radio that he’d seen a woman in the kitchen, and Woodcock now reporting the body of a man, the wireless operator made the following entry at 07.37:

“one dead male and one dead female in kitchen”.

The error was insignificant in itself, but when Bamber obtained a copy of the log in 2005, he quickly sought out anything that could be represented as an inconsistency and manipulated to support his claim that he’d been framed for the crime.
After dealing with emergeny services myself, here  is an example of communication error, i have had a small camping gaz cylinder explode and slightly injure a male, that involved first response 2 ambulances 2 fire engines 1 paramedic and this is when i climbed in the trash bin air amulance helicopter arrived having told the operator it was the smallest of gas cyliners and everything is under control not once but 3 times? The chief fireman asked me were is the gas tank? Try giving a statement then read it again when it comes back to you about a month later?


Offline mike tesko

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As far as is known, only PS Bews describes the sighting of the fifure at the bedroom window as a trick of light - PC Myall took the opposite view, since it was one of his duties to try and establish who the person they had been observing .ight be. With this in mind a full fingerprint search was carried out at the scene. PC Myall also raised a police action if anyone knew who the unidentified male whp was seen walking away from the farmhouse was? This can be linked to a newspaper article, written up by Kim Sengupta, which raised a question as to the identity of a scruffy looking hunched up man who was seen walking away from the grounds of the farmhouse, about an hour after police first arrived at the scene. This places the timing of this important sighting at around 4:48am, just before the arrival of the first group of firearms officers...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Reader

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What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”.
If there was any true conversation, it must have been so minimal that the officers thought that Jeremy could not help, and hence told him nothing so as to ensure his safety. What surprises me is that the raid was conducted so noisily, as the police officers had no way of knowing they wouldn't be blasted with a shotgun when they went in. It would have been better to use the noise of the loudhailer as cover for forcing a window, thereby enabling quiet entry.

mertol22

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im just suprised that be it or not the figure seen on the upper floor was real or not, i woyld have thought the ground floor , such a figure there would pose a greater danger, its not clear what they were actually for, little could be achieved from the outside .

Offline HMEssex

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If there was any true conversation, it must have been so minimal that the officers thought that Jeremy could not help, and hence told him nothing so as to ensure his safety. What surprises me is that the raid was conducted so noisily, as the police officers had no way of knowing they wouldn't be blasted with a shotgun when they went in. It would have been better to use the noise of the loudhailer as cover for forcing a window, thereby enabling quiet entry.




The Police must have thought they were talking to someone (ie they saw movement etc), otherwise why did they bother with a loudspeaker?

If there had been no movement or sound, with whom were they trying to communicate?

Plus, if communication was so minimal, why would they have to ensure Jeremy's safety?