you can't fool me - police surgeon, Dr Craig, got it so terribly wrong...

[mike tesko]

Àt 8.44am when the police surgeon Dr Craig pronounced Sheila Caffel as being dead in the main bedroom, he made a terrible mistake, because she was not dead at all by that stage, she was by all accounts still very much alive...

[curiousessex]

Àt 8.44am when the police surgeon Dr Craig pronounced Sheila Caffel as being dead in the main bedroom, he made a terrible mistake, because she was not dead at all by that stage, she was by all accounts still very much alive...

Mike

In this scenario and at this stage did Sheila have one or two gun shot wounds to the neck?

May I also ask in such an erroneous scenario how did Dr Craig pronounce Sheila dead was it by checking her pulse or by another method?

[lookout]

curiousessex,,,,,Sheila would have been pronounced dead via the classic indicators which is the  permanent cessation of the
function of the heart and lungs,and in the overwhelming majority of cases,these remain the criteria by which a doctor diagnoses
and certifies death.

[Buddy]

Àt 8.44am when the police surgeon Dr Craig pronounced Sheila Caffel as being dead in the main bedroom, he made a terrible mistake, because she was not dead at all by that stage, she was by all accounts still very much alive...

This is where I fall apart a little Mike. Did Craig examine Sheila on the bed, or on the floor?
If as has been suggested Sheila was spotted in the kitchen, and was presumed dead then made her way by some back staircase upstairs to her mothers bedroom did she lie on the bed.
As some copper seems to say that June, and sheila were both on the bed with the rifle between them, yet ended up on different sides of the room.
I admit that Junes position seems to have been placed there.

[maggie]

But Dr Craig pronounced her dead and reported at the inquest that she only had one bullet wound to her neck.

[Buddy]

But Dr Craig pronounced her dead and reported at the inquest that she only had one bullet wound to her neck.

There were loads of mistakes Maggie, that is what makes this more compelling.

[tonyb]

Àt 8.44am when the police surgeon Dr Craig pronounced Sheila Caffel as being dead in the main bedroom, he made a terrible mistake, because she was not dead at all by that stage, she was by all accounts still very much alive...

Sorry to be pedantic Mike but you need to be more accurate. "she was by all accounts still very much alive..."
This is factually incorrect.

[mike tesko]

Mike

In this scenario and at this stage did Sheila have one or two gun shot wounds to the neck?

May I also ask in such an erroneous scenario how did Dr Craig pronounce Sheila dead was it by checking her pulse or by another method?

by visual inspection...

[tonyb]

Sorry to be pedantic Mike but you need to be more accurate. "she was by all accounts still very much alive..."
This is factually incorrect.

If there were any accounts that SC was still alive then JB walks free on this evidence alone. The fact is there doesn't seem to be any factual account that states SC was alive,when certified dead.

[Bridget]

Is there a transcript of the evidence Craig gave at the inquest? Otherwise all we have is Craig's statement dated 07/08/85, in which he does not say that there was only wound, he just only describes one of them, just as he does with everyone else.

[grahameb]

Is there a transcript of the evidence Craig gave at the inquest? Otherwise all we have is Craig's statement dated 07/08/85, in which he does not say that there was only wound, he just only describes one of them, just as he does with everyone else.

What he actually said was

There was what appeared to be an entry wound to the throat

[grahameb]

What he actually said was

But he also said that there was a quantity of "dried" blood which had apparently come from her mouth. Which may be of interest to those of us who say that the blood looks as if it was still wet?

[Patti]

Mike, Dr Craig describes only one entry wound on all the victims in his statement, but we know that is not correct. I noticed that a black line has been made through that statement. could it be that is was incorrect and he made another?

We know Sheila to have two wounds...

[grahameb]

Mike, Dr Craig describes only one entry wound on all the victims in his statement, but we know that is not correct. I noticed that a black line has been made through that statement. could it be that is was incorrect and he made another?

We know Sheila to have two wounds...

I think that was what Bridget was getting at. It was a statement and he was just describing the scene as it appeared to him. He only mentioned one wound to Ralph yet we know there were many more injuries. I think the detailed analysis is left up to the pathologist. It was just Dr. Craig's job to certify death. and he does that through reading the life signs. He would probably feel for a pulse and not just rely on his sight?

[mike tesko]

Is there a transcript of the evidence Craig gave at the inquest? Otherwise all we have is Craig's statement dated 07/08/85, in which he does not say that there was only wound, he just only describes one of them, just as he does with everyone else.

Which demonstrates that he did not carry out a proper or thorough examination, to enable him to verify that Sheila or the others were in fact dead. It is also a striking feature that he pronounced all the victims as being dead at exactly the same time (8:44am) but this would have been impossible since bodies were all over the shop. When Craig was interviewed by COLP he gave a more detailed account about the occasion when he verified Sheila as being dead at 8:44am - he said that when he saw Sheila she had what appeared to be a solitary wound on her neck, and that by that stage he could only see one wound, or words to that effect. If there had been two wounds when Craig saw Sheila in the bedroom, he could not have been mistaken into saying he only thought she had one wound, unless of course she did?

Now...

Look at this image taken of Sheila by PC Bird at some time after 10am, on 7th August 1985, and ask yourselves how if Shelia had these two wounds to her throat when Craig pronounced Sheila as being dead, he could have been mistaken into thinking she only had one wound?