you can't fool me - police surgeon, Dr Craig, got it so terribly wrong...

[grahameb]

Which demonstrates that he did not carry out a proper or thorough examination, to enable him to verify that Sheila or the others were in fact dead. It is also a striking feature that he pronounced all the victims as being dead at exactly the same time (8:44am) but this would have been impossible since bodies were all over the shop. When Craig was interviewed by COLP he gave a more detailed account about the occasion when he verified Sheila as beimg dead at 8:44am - he said that when he saw Sheila she had what appeared to be a solitary wound on her neck, and that by that stage he could only see one wound, or words to that effect. If there had been two wounds when Craig saw Sheila in the bedroom, he could not have been mistaken into saying he only thought she had one wound, unless of course she did?

Now...

Look at this image taken of Sheila by PC Bird at some time after 10am, on 7th August 1985, and ask yourselves how if Shelia had these two wounds to her throat when Craig pronounced Sheila as being dead, he could have been mistaken into thinking she only had one wound?

And that blood definitely does look wet to me?

[maggie]

I cannot see how he could have been mistaken, Mike.  There is no doubt about how many wounds you are looking at on Sheila's neck.

[mike tesko]

The photograph of Sheila on the bed shows her to only have a solitary wound on her neck, with a small vertical bloodstain beneath it. Now, either Craig saw Sheila's body before the said photograph was taken, or afterwards. Now, he claims he saw Sheila's body at 8:44am, and at that stage she only had a solitary wound to the neck, and that blood which had dried ran from the corners of her mouth? Well, this is  nonsense if you go by the condition of the blood in the photograph taken by PC Bird at and after 10am, because by that stage Sheila has two wounds to her neck, and the only blood running from the sides of her mouth are clearly wet looking, and some one hour and fifth-teen minutes had elapsed between the occasion Craig claims he saw Sheila's body, and the occasion when Bird took pictures?

[curiousessex]

by visual inspection...

Mike

A Doctor pronouncing someone dead by visual inspection is totally at odds with your opening post.........

Àt 8.44am when the police surgeon Dr Craig pronounced Sheila Caffel as being dead in the main bedroom, he made a terrible mistake, because she was not dead at all by that stage, she was by all accounts still very much alive...

Given you have stated at 8.44 a.m. Sheila was very much alive............ when did Sheila pass away in your opinion.

[curiousessex]

The photograph of Sheila on the bed shows her to only have a solitary wound on her neck, with a small vertical bloodstain beneath it. Now, either Craig saw Sheila's body before the said photograph was taken, or afterwards. Now, he claims he saw Sheila's body at 8:44am, and at that stage she only had a solitary wound to the neck, an that blood which had dried ran from the corners iof her mouth? Well, this is  nonsense if you go by the condition of the blood in the photograph taken by PC Bird at and after 10am, because by that stage Sheila has two wounds to her neck, and the only blood running from the sides of her mouth are clearly wet looking, and some one hour and fifth-teen minutes had elapsed between the occasion Craig claims he saw Sheila's body, and the occasion when Bird took pictures?

What time, in your opinion, was the alleged photograph of Sheila on the bed taken?

[maggie]

The photograph of Sheila on the bed shows her to only have a solitary wound on her neck, with a small vertical bloodstain beneath it. Now, either Craig saw Sheila's body before the said photograph was taken, or afterwards. Now, he claims he saw Sheila's body at 8:44am, and at that stage she only had a solitary wound to the neck, an that blood which had dried ran from the corners iof her mouth? Well, this is  nonsense if you go by the condition of the blood in the photograph taken by PC Bird at and after 10am, because by that stage Sheila has two wounds to her neck, and the only blood running from the sides of her mouth are clearly wet looking, and some one hour and fifth-teen minutes had elapsed between the occasion Craig claims he saw Sheila's body, and the occasion when Bird took pictures?

I find it impossible to believe Mike that any doctor could mistake those two wounds for one wound. So it either was, as you say, only one wound or for some reason he has been lent on.  What would be the purpose of pretending there was only one wounds instead of two. That makes no sense at all.

[Patti]

PC Bird took photographs in the main bedroom on two separate occasions. 

My question is why?

My other questions surrounds the safety of the gun which was laid across Shelia....

Cook says he saw whoever make the gun safe. He says the gun was not made safe when he moved her hand and arm for PC Bird to photograph the marks on Sheila's night dress.

Which makes me want to ask....

Was her arm that flexible to have been moved due to rigour mortise?

[mike tesko]

The photograph of Sheila on the bed shows her to only have a solitary wound on her neck, with a small vertical bloodstain beneath it. Now, either Craig saw Sheila's body before the said photograph was taken, or afterwards. Now, he claims he saw Sheila's body at 8:44am, and at that stage she only had a solitary wound to the neck, an that blood which had dried ran from the corners iof her mouth? Well, this is  nonsense if you go by the condition of the blood in the photograph taken by PC Bird at and after 10am, because by that stage Sheila has two wounds to her neck, and the only blood running from the sides of her mouth are clearly wet looking, and some one hour and fifth-teen minutes had elapsed between the occasion Craig claims he saw Sheila's body, and the occasion when Bird took pictures?

Quite clearly, Craig did not see Sheila's body (8:44am) as shown in the photograph taken by PC Bird at 10am, because if Sheila's body had been in that state by 10am, it could not have been exactly the same one hour and fifthteen minutes beforehand when Craig attended the scene, and pronounced Sheila as being dead. Blood running by that time, from the corners of her mouth at 8:44am, could not have been dried there or then, and yet be wet and running by 10am?

Another point mentioned is that Craig only mentions that all the other victims died from a solitary wound also, even though they had many more, but no body makes the link between Craig and PI "Bob" Miller, being present at the scene (8:44am) together when Craig verified death in the case of all victims, and that Miller attended the opening of the inquest on 14th August 1985, where Miller told Deputy Coroner that the police believed that Sheila killed the others and that she then took her own life by way of a solitary shot under the chin? Now, is it being argued that Miller misled the Deputy Coroner, Thompkins, into accepting that all the victims had only been shot once? And if so, or otherwise, how does this fit in with the relatives believing from a very early stage that everyone including Sheila had only been shot just the once?

[bob]

Àt 8.44am when the police surgeon Dr Craig pronounced Sheila Caffel as being dead in the main bedroom, he made a terrible mistake, because she was not dead at all by that stage, she was by all accounts still very much alive...

What do you mean "by all accounts" Mike?
Not by any account I've ever read - other than yours, of course 

[mike tesko]

Quite clearly, Craig did not see Sheila's body (8:44am) as shown in the photograph taken by PC Bird at 10am, because if Sheila's body had been in that state by 10am, it could not have been exactly the same one hour and fifthteen minutes beforehand when Craig attended the scene, and pronounced Sheila as being dead. Blood running by that time, from the corners of her mouth at 8:44am, could not have been dried there or then, and yet be wet and running by 10am?

Another point mentioned is that Craig only mentions that all the other victims died from a solitary wound also, even though they had many more, but no body makes the link between Craig and PI "Bob" Miller, being present at the scene (8:44am) together when Craig verified death in the case of all victims, and that Miller attended the opening of the inquest on 14th August 1985, where Miller told Deputy Coroner that the police believed that Sheila killed the others and that she then took her own life by way of a solitary shot under the chin? Now, is it being argued that Miller misled the Deputy Coroner, Thompkins, into accepting that all the victims had only been shot once? And if so, or otherwise, how does this fit in with the relatives believing from a very early stage that everyone including Sheila had only been shot just the once?

None of the victims had only one wound, so what was going on with the police surgeon Craig, and police inspector Miller, and the relatives, all thinking or mentioning that the victims had all been shot just the once, when clearly they had been shot many more times than this?

[mike tesko]

Mike

A Doctor pronouncing someone dead by visual inspection is totally at odds with your opening post.........

Àt 8.44am when the police surgeon Dr Craig pronounced Sheila Caffel as being dead in the main bedroom, he made a terrible mistake, because she was not dead at all by that stage, she was by all accounts still very much alive...

Given you have stated at 8.44 a.m. Sheila was very much alive............ when did Sheila pass away in your opinion.

Perhaps what I should have done, is make the topic a sticky until I got over everything I wanted to say about this matter, but because I didn't I leave myself open to attack from many sides. Craig made a terrible mistake about pronouncing Sheila as being dead at 8:44am, because she did not receive the second shot until after the training exercise commenced at around 9am. Craig had pronounced Sheila dead (8:44am) before the arrival of the training officers, and before one of them accidentally shot Sheila whilst moving a rifle about on her body during the training exercise. This is what led to a delay in SOC taking control of the crime scene, until 10am. These training officers moved Sheila's body to the bedroom floor from the bed, where she had only one wound on her neck whilst body was on the bed, but she had two by the time she was moved onto the bedroom floor. By the time SOC took control of the scene, Sheila's body was in the position the training officers had left it in whilst carrying out training exercises with the bodies in situ...

[mike tesko]

What time, in your opinion, was the alleged photograph of Sheila on the bed taken?

Between 8:30 and 9:20am...

[bob]

Perhaps what I should have done, is make the topic a sticky until I got over everything I wanted to say about this matter, but because I didn't I leave myself open to attack from many sides. Craig made a terrible mistake about pronouncing Sheila as being dead at 8:44am, because she did not receive the second shot until after the training exercise commenced at around 9am. Craig had pronounced Sheila dead (8:44am) before the arrival of the training officers, and before one of them accidentally shot Sheila whilst moving a rifle about on her body during the training exercise. This is what led to a delay in SOC taking control of the crime scene, until 10am. These training officers moved Sheila's body to the bedroom floor from the bed, where she had only one wound on her neck whilst body was on the bed, but she had two by the time she was moved onto the bedroom floor. By the time SOC took control of the scene, Sheila's body was in the position the training officers had left it in whilst carrying out training exercises with the bodies in situ...

I'm confused now Mike. I thought you said June shot Sheila?

[mike tesko]

What do you mean "by all accounts" Mike?
Not by any account I've ever read - other than yours, of course 

The evidential account I refer to, involves the images of Sheila on the bed with a solitary wound on her neck, and the other images of Sheila on the bedroom floor with two wounds and fresh blood running and leaking from the wounds, and corners of her mouth, etc...

Now...

in the first image I refer to, there was a small dried and fading blood trail which ran vertically, but no other bloodstains or wounds at all on her neck. What seems apparent to me is that because there was no blood at all running from the lower wound at the time Craig and Miller saw Sheila in the bedroom at 8:44am, Craig made the mistake of thinking that Sheila had in fact died, but she had not died at all by that stage. She did not die until after the second shot was inflicted, and because Sheila had been taking drugs the blood which poured out of the upper wound and the sides of her mouth appeared to be diluted (thinned). Nevertheless, what becomes clear is that Sheila's heart was still beating by the time the second shot was inflicted...

All Craig and Miller had to go on at 8:44am, was a solitary entry wound with a vertically dried, fading blood trail, on Sheila's neck, which caused Craig to make the terrible mistake of pronouncing Sheila as being dead, at 8:44am. However, if Craig had been present inside the bedroom when the second shot was accidentally fired or discharged, Craig would have then realized that Sheila's heart was still beating because blood was being pumped out of the body, in particular out of the second entry wound...

[mike tesko]

I'm confused now Mike. I thought you said June shot Sheila?

Don't confuse yourself, I think June attacked Ralph, and later fought with Sheila...