If silencer wasn't used...

[Nuala]

So...

with this in mind, it is not wise to say that a silencer was not used at all in the shootings, since blood from Sheila, or anyone, had to get into the silencer by some means or other? For this not to be true, any referral of the caseback to the court of appeal by the CCRC, would almost inevitably mean there will have to be some sort of internal police investigation involving searching questions about how the blood from Sheila got into the silencer?

The issue of whether the blood in the silencer was Sheila's or a mixture was never adequately resolved, was it? Certainly whatsisname who examined the blood could not state with certainty that the blood was not a mixture. What he said was that it was unlikely (or highly unlikely)  that it was a mixture. There was a lot of criticism of the methods he used to examine the blood too, wasn't there?

Mr Justice Drake, who may or may not have been struck by the similarities between himself and Nevill - they were the same age, born the same year, both farmed, both had children of the same ages and both lived at White House Farm, they even looked alike - if I remember correctly, neglected to mention this to the jury.

[mike tesko]

It has also come to light that in fact police had no less than five separate silencers in their possession in connection with this investigation:-

(1) - Bamber silencer
(2) - Pargeter silencer
(3) - Robert Boutflour silencer
(4) - David Boutflour silencer
(5) - Silencer belonging to the Lab'

[mike tesko]

The issue of whether the blood in the silencer was Sheila's or a mixture was never adequately resolved, was it? Certainly whatsisname who examined the blood could not state with certainty that the blood was not a mixture. What he said was that it was unlikely (or highly unlikely)  that it was a mixture. There was a lot of criticism of the methods he used to examine the blood too, wasn't there?

Mr Justice Drake, who may or may not have been struck by the similarities between himself and Nevill - they were the same age, born the same year, both farmed, both had children of the same ages and both lived at White House Farm, they even looked alike - if I remember correctly, neglected to mention this to the jury.

I agree with what you are saying, but at the end of the day the jury accepted that it was blood from Sheila found inside the silencer, which is what has to be overcome...

[packagebuilder]

Where is the silencer now...... distroyed? and DNA too?? 

[mike tesko]

Basically, what I am saying is that because the jury accepted that the blood found inside the silencer originated exclusively from Sheila, that any decision taken by the CCRC to refer the case back to the court of appeal on the basis that a silencer was not used in the shootings, will have repercussions on the fact that the jury accepted the blood found in the silencer came, exclusively from Sheila...

[Nuala]

More importantly, the mark has the same or very similar dimensional characteristics as the muzzle end of a silencer...

Perhaps with one important difference. The end of the silencer did not have a straight (not curved) section, yet that mark does seem to me to have such a relatively straight section at its lower end.

Does this straight section line up with the blood soaked section of the chain of Sheila's necklace? If so, could that neck chain have been pulled tightly across Sheila's neck, say, when she fell back or even due to the swelling of her neck? If so, did this tight neck chain stop the swelling - and thus the bruising - around the non fatal wound from spreading below the chain? Is that why the lower section of that mark appears straight?

Also, the lower part of the right side of Sheila's neck was swollen with blood that had leaked into the tissues. It's bruised too, as a result of that blood leakage. Is this swelling distorting the shape of the non fatal wound? Is it also distorting the shape of the tissue around that wound? The area around that wound seems slightly raised and swollen to me.

[packagebuilder]

Basically, what I am saying is that because the jury accepted that the blood found inside the silencer originated exclusively from Sheila, that any decision taken by the CCRC to refer the case back to the court of appeal on the basis that a silencer was not used in the shootings, will have repercussions on the fact that the jury accepted the blood found in the silencer came, exclusively from Sheila...

I see then if we could prove the blood was not Sheila's, then the case "falls through the ice"? 

[mike tesko]

Perhaps with one important difference. The end of the silencer did not have a straight (not curved) section, yet that mark does seem to me to have such a relatively straight section at its lower end.

Does this straight section line up with the blood soaked section of the chain of Sheila's necklace? If so, could that neck chain have been pulled tightly across Sheila's neck, say, when she fell back or even due to the swelling of her neck? If so, did this tight neck chain stop the swelling - and thus the bruising - around the non fatal wound from spreading below the chain? Is that why the lower section of that mark appears straight?

Also, the lower part of the right side of Sheila's neck was swollen with blood that had leaked into the tissues. It's bruised too, as a result of that blood leakage. Is this swelling distorting the shape of the non fatal wound? Is it also distorting the shape of the tissue around that wound? The area around that wound seems slightly raised and swollen to me.

I think the straight part of the mark you are referring to could be one of two things, (1) the angle at which the muzzle of the silencer was offered into position at the time it came into contact wity the neck, or (2) the necklace got in the way, like you suggest...

[Hartley]

Where is the silencer now...... distroyed? and DNA too?? 

Museum.

[mike tesko]

One of the main silencers was handed back to Anthony Pargeter, the other is in the police museum, two others were handed back to the Boutflour family, and the fifth was retained by Huntingdon Lab' because they owned it...

[packagebuilder]

5 silencers? oooh boy they going to hard to obtain!

I am sure if we could get hold of the silencer used in the the shooting with the blood flake? and Sheila's hair sample? and ran tests on them with todays forensic testing??

and if there is not match, then the case drops? 

were is the "police museum" at Essex HQ or FSU lab? 

[mike tesko]

5 silencers? oooh boy they going to hard to obtain!

I am sure if we could get hold of the silencer used in the the shooting with the blood flake? and Sheila's hair sample? and ran tests on them with todays forensic testing??

and if there is not match, then the case drops? 

were is the "police museum" at Essex HQ or FSU lab? 

Only one of these five silencers was coated in super glue residue, as a result of testing on 23rd August 1985 - any chances of guessing which silencer from the five, (in your opinion)  that super glued silencer might have been?

[packagebuilder]

I think sniffing the silencers for solvent won't work 

Needle in a hay stack? But again, the silence the police tested could of had vermin blood in it?

the super glue residue tests, I've heard the solvents break down DNA giving false data?

I've heard to if AP rifle had a barrel change its possible for an RFD to have sent the barrel of to be destroyed or may have it in the back of their shop? every RFD keeps back a record of barrel work done on a firearm?

as long you got the gun make and serial number, you could track the RFD that done such work!

since the RFD will only hand the old barrel back if you got a slot for it on your FAC? as its a compoment part like a silencer....?

But the chances are very slim!

[Nuala]

I think the straight part of the mark you are referring to could be one of two things, (1) the angle at which the muzzle of the silencer was offered into position at the time it came into contact wity the neck, or (2) the necklace got in the way, like you suggest...

Have to go and do my maternal duty as a taxi, so just a brief reply.

The neck chain could have got in the way of a silencer, good point, although the absolute edge of the silencer would need to be perfectly aligned with the chain for some half inch of chain, wouldn't it? And is this possible with a curved silencer end cap? Maybe not. Should there be some burn effect from the chain heating if this was the case? These are probably a stupid points - I know nothing about guns and silencers.

I tried the angle test by pressing the 'end cap' of a cylindrical battery on the inside of my arm at at an angle, the result was still a highly curved indentation. Am I thinking of this the wrong way?

[nugnug]

ether the blood was put there or the silencer was used to shoot something else that's assuming a silencer wasn't used.