PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body

[mike tesko]

PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body

Raid team, including PC's Delgado and Collins, approached door from right, passing the kitchen window, and therefore, PC's Delgado and Collins could not have gone past the door to look in through the kitchen window to enable Collins to see a female body which he later says turned out to be the body of Ralph Bamber, an error he did not realize he had made until he actually got into the kitchen?

Collins could only have looked through the window marked "Office window", and if he saw a female body through that window, he could not have mistaken Ralph Bambers body for the female body, because both bodies would have been in completely different rooms downstairs...

[H]

The other three windows upstairs which I didn't notate are from left to right:

Upstairs offce - box room/bed room - bathroom.

[mike tesko]

The other three windows upstairs which I didn't notate are from left to right:

Upstairs offce - box room/bed room - bathroom.

Er - I think it needs pointing out to you that there are four upstairs windows, not three...

[H]

The other three windows upstairs which I didn't notate are from left to right:

Upstairs offce - box room/bed room - bathroom.

Er - I think it needs pointing out to you that there are four upstairs windows, not three...
s

Erm I think you need to go to specsavers, either that or look up 'notate' in a dictionary 

[grahameb]

The other three windows upstairs which I didn't notate are from left to right:

Upstairs offce - box room/bed room - bathroom.

Er - I think it needs pointing out to you that there are four upstairs windows, not three...
s

Erm I think you need to go to specsavers, either that or look up 'notate' in a dictionary 

Are you writing a concerto now Hartley?

[H]

I wasn't intending to. 

[mike tesko]

The other three windows upstairs which I didn't notate are from left to right:

Upstairs offce - box room/bed room - bathroom.

Er - I think it needs pointing out to you that there are four upstairs windows, not three...
s

Erm I think you need to go to specsavers, either that or look up 'notate' in a dictionary 

Er - I see four upstairs windows, so I think I`ll give specsavers a miss, perhaps you should go instead?

[H]

Am I going mad? In that photograph which I obtained from the listed building register and then added notes to, there are three uptairs windows which I hadn't notated.

There is also a brick blind, which is not a window it's an architectural feature used to give continuation visually to fenestration on a building facade.

[smiffy]

Now if your in a firearms team and your going to enter a house and someone has already produced a quick layout plan for you with info on it that is helpful what do you do?
The plan indicates a room  the external door that entry will be gained through  has a window so the area/room being entered can be checked before entry is made. It makes total sense to check through the relevant window prior to entry. The ones to the left of the door .

They even tried looking through the keyhole too...but could see nothing through that as a key was inserted in it(allegedly). This claim itself shows the importance of checking was in the mind of the firearms team.

[smiffy]

looking through the floor plans produced for the prosecution it is clear that there is little detailing of the area around the back/kitchen compared to other areas.
It is as though the viewer is being directed away from this area of the house as the lack of detailing suggests it is of no interest. The viewer is thus misdirected into thinking only about the areas that are detailed.
This misdirecting may work with some but any decent investigator will question this issue and wonder why focus is being taken away from an area that could be of significant interest in getting to the truth of what really happened at whf.
As ever...we should focus not only on what we are told ..but what we are NOT told or informed about.

[grahameb]

The other three windows upstairs which I didn't notate are from left to right:

Upstairs offce - box room/bed room - bathroom.

Er - I think it needs pointing out to you that there are four upstairs windows, not three...

Hartley is obviously referring to the 3 windows he hasn't referenced with red pen. from the left 1-2-3.

[H]

Collins could only have looked through the window marked "Office window", and if he saw a female body through that window, he could not have mistaken Ralph Bambers body for the female body, because both bodies would have been in completely different rooms downstairs...

PC John Manners statement clearly indicates which direction the raid team approached the door, he also clearly indicates which window Collins looked through.

PC Manners statement can be seen in this thread: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1169.0.html

[smiffy]

Collins could only have looked through the window marked "Office window", and if he saw a female body through that window, he could not have mistaken Ralph Bambers body for the female body, because both bodies would have been in completely different rooms downstairs...

PC John Manners statement clearly indicates which direction the raid team approached the door, he also clearly indicates which window Collins looked through.

PC Manners statement can be seen in this thread: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1169.0.html

no it does not...it mentions a wall...
but does not state which wall...the wall of the house or the wall that appears to the right when viewed in the photographs...

when someone ever uses left or right to describe something (other than say left hand or right leg) the viewpoint perspective needs to be given .
Manners statement does not give a viewpoint perspective so it is unclear which way he claims the firearms party approached the door.

When Hammersley purportedly described the boys beds he talks of a left bed but this is unclear in the text on which bed he means as he gives no viewpoint. Only later in a plan can it be worked out what he meant by left bed. Without clarification then using left or right to describe something is ambiguous...and sometimes statements are made to be ambiguous to allow for later changes of story.

[H]

I'm not terribly interested in discussing this with Smiffy.

What do other people think?

Here is an extract to Manners statement linked to in my previous post, he mentions approaching along the wall to the left of the premises, going past the door and looking into the kitchen, once inside they turned right into the kitchen.

I can't see how it can be interpreted in any way, than as I've described, it's very clear (to me).

[mike tesko]

I'm not terribly interested in discussing this with Smiffy.

What do other people think?

Here is an extract to Manners statement linked to in my previous post, he mentions approaching along the wall to the left of the premises, going past the door and looking into the kitchen, once inside they turned right into the kitchen.

I can't see how it can be interpreted in any way, than as I've described, it's very clear (to me).

.....

Look here, and then consider revising your interpretation - there is only a wall at one side of the kitchen door. If you are stood with the house door which the police smashed open with a sledge hammer behind you, the wall which PS Manners speaks about is located/situated to the left, not to the right. Since there is no wall to the right (if you were stood with your back towards to farmhouse), I do not believe you can interpret what PC Manners says, in the way you are trying to suggest because to put it bluntly there is no wall at the other side of the building which he could possibly be referring to?

There is no other wall on the right side of the farmhouse (if you were /are stood with your back to the farmhouse) and if you insist on pursuing that argument please provide proof that such a wall exists on the other side otherwise your argument is fundamentally flawed?