Author Topic: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series - Season 1  (Read 126397 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #660 on: May 22, 2021, 10:22:AM »
Perhaps the police said 'just put some blood in the sound moderator and we'll do the rest'.  Or even, 'just leave it all to us'.

Thar negates David's theory that the police were not involved.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 10:23:AM by Adam »
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Offline lookout

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #661 on: May 22, 2021, 11:45:AM »
In view of the fact that the police sounded like a stuck record by saying " we didn't see that ", nothing surprises me at what happened.

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #662 on: May 22, 2021, 11:51:AM »
Perhaps the police said 'just put some blood in the sound moderator and we'll do the rest'.  Or even, 'just leave it all to us'.

What is the police motive for framing an innocent man?

Or are you saying that the police decided he was guilty and framed him on that basis?

Offline Roch

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #663 on: May 22, 2021, 12:12:PM »
What is the police motive for framing an innocent man?

Or are you saying that the police decided he was guilty and framed him on that basis?

I'll get back about that. I know it's a conundrum in the case.  I am going to replay each podcast and note some of the claims being made. I've also started grammatically editing Shaw's unfinished unpublished manuscript. I know it's not sourced but I am going to compare any similarities between the claims made by Shaw and info gleaned from podcasts. I will eventually post up a word doc containing Shaw, to make it easier to read.

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #664 on: May 22, 2021, 12:15:PM »
Question open to everyone. QC did not answer.

I've already answered the question in other posts.

They wouldn't need to know any of the things you list, not even the blood group.

As a minimum, they would need to know:

(i). where Sheila was found (not the precise position of the body, just in which room);
(ii). which rifle was used as the murder weapon;
(iii). that there was no silencer attached to the rifle when found at the scene;
(iv). that the silencer they have found goes with the rifle; and,
(v). how to dismantle and reassemble that silencer.

These are all things easily within the knowledge of Ann, David, Robert and Peter.  I think that if - I stress, if - there was a conspiracy, then the conspirators were David and Robert.

I agree that it would be better for this theory if can be shown that they knew Sheila's blood group, and also if it can be shown that they knew at that early stage that some of the shots were contact or near-contact shots. I think they did known both these things anyway, but neither her blood group nor the close range of the shots are minimum knowledge that they needed to contaminate and plant the silencer.  They may have just intuited that blood would be inside the murder weapon from David's discovery of what appeared to be blood on the outer housing of the silencer, or they have even have decided that regardless of whether blood technically could be in the silencer, they would add it in as a means of incriminating Jeremy; and, it could be anybody's blood that they put inside the silencer, as long as it's human.  They would then report the silencer to the police and say that they found it in the gun cupboard and it was used in the killings, thus implicating Jeremy given that Sheila would not have returned the silencer to the gun cupboard before shooting herself.

The whole issue of whether Sheila could reach the trigger with the silencer attached is, in my view, a red herring from the perspective of conspiring relatives.  It may be a valid deduction for the police, but it amounts to reasoning backwards on the question of whether the conspiracy occurred.  What you are forgetting is the order in which the evidence came to light.  The silencer only came into the picture later, which means that in order to incriminate Jeremy, the police then had to find a way to fit the silencer into the evidence, given that the silencer was not at the scene in the first place. 

The tests that the police had carried out on the silencer were for blood.  Given the quantity of blood found in the silencer, it just needed to be human blood for suspicion to fall on Jeremy.  It turned out it was human blood, so Jeremy is in the frame.  Unless he is to remain silent, Jeremy, as the only survivor of the immediate family, then has to explain why there is human blood in a silencer paired with the murder weapon and found some distance from the crime scene.  The problem, I believe, for the relatives and the authorities is that, in retrospect, the distribution of blood in the silencer seems consistent with it having been contaminated.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #665 on: May 22, 2021, 12:31:PM »
I've already answered the question in other posts.

They wouldn't need to know any of the things you list, not even the blood group.

As a minimum, they would need to know:

(i). where Sheila was found (not the precise position of the body, just in which room);
(ii). which rifle was used as the murder weapon;
(iii). that there was no silencer attached to the rifle when found at the scene;
(iv). that the silencer they have found goes with the rifle; and,
(v). how to dismantle and reassemble that silencer.

These are all things easily within the knowledge of Ann, David, Robert and Peter.  I think that if - I stress, if - there was a conspiracy, then the conspirators were David and Robert.

I agree that it would be better for this theory if can be shown that they knew Sheila's blood group, and also if it can be shown that they knew at that early stage that some of the shots were contact or near-contact shots. I think they did known both these things anyway, but neither her blood group nor the close range of the shots are minimum knowledge that they needed to contaminate and plant the silencer.  They may have just intuited that blood would be inside the murder weapon from David's discovery of what appeared to be blood on the outer housing of the silencer, or they have even have decided that regardless of whether blood technically could be in the silencer, they would add it in as a means of incriminating Jeremy; and, it could be anybody's blood that they put inside the silencer, as long as it's human.  They would then report the silencer to the police and say that they found it in the gun cupboard and it was used in the killings, thus implicating Jeremy given that Sheila would not have returned the silencer to the gun cupboard before shooting herself.

The whole issue of whether Sheila could reach the trigger with the silencer attached is, in my view, a red herring from the perspective of conspiring relatives.  It may be a valid deduction for the police, but it amounts to reasoning backwards on the question of whether the conspiracy occurred.  What you are forgetting is the order in which the evidence came to light.  The silencer only came into the picture later, which means that in order to incriminate Jeremy, the police then had to find a way to fit the silencer into the evidence, given that the silencer was not at the scene in the first place. 

The tests that the police had carried out on the silencer were for blood.  Given the quantity of blood found in the silencer, it just needed to be human blood for suspicion to fall on Jeremy.  It turned out it was human blood, so Jeremy is in the frame.  Unless he is to remain silent, Jeremy, as the only survivor of the immediate family, then has to explain why there is human blood in a silencer paired with the murder weapon and found some distance from the crime scene.  The problem, I believe, for the relatives and the authorities is that, in retrospect, the distribution of blood in the silencer seems consistent with it having been contaminated.

Why would they need to know which room Sheila was found?

Good point about also knowing which rifle was used. Some rifles won't have a silencer option. Also whether the silencer they chose was compatible with the murder weapon. I will add those to my list.

They would need to know more than how to dismantle a silencer. They would also need to know how to create the back spatter effect. David even believes they learnt how to put diluted period blood into the silencer.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 12:51:PM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #666 on: May 22, 2021, 12:37:PM »
David would need to explain how the relatives found out -

Sheila's arm lenght.

The rifle lenght with silencer.

What murder weapon was used.

Whether the silencer they have chosen was compatible with the murder weapon.

Different positions Sheila could have shot herself.

What back splatter is.

Who received contact shots.

What locations would contact shots need to be to produce back splatter.

Where were the contact shots on everyone.

Is there any other forensic evidence against Sheila.

How to put diluted period blood into a silencer.

Had the police already checked all silencers at WHF.

The chance of this getting a conviction.

The punishment if caught doing this.

Was there a kitchen fight.

How to effectively scratch the aga.

What the kitchen crime scene photos show.

Was a silencer found by Sheila's body or at the crime scene.

What blood group was Sheila.

How can they find Sheila's blood group to put in the silencer.

Were the police already gathering evidence against Bamber.

Agree in unison to do this. Then never retract a word of their WS.

----------

David will not answer & post the same pasted 'Gish Gash' paragraph. Whatever that is supposed to mean.

Anyone else?

QC just said the relatives would not need to know any of these. Except a couple.

It is really for David who says the relatives fabricated the silencer without police assistance. I have given him this list before but he has always refused to address each point.
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Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #667 on: May 22, 2021, 12:44:PM »
The police could have given the relatives this information. However unlikely Stan Jones would know it all. He was not heading the investigation. This would support the industrial frame.
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Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #668 on: May 22, 2021, 12:49:PM »
The police could have -

Fabricated the silencer. Then asked several relatives to sign false WS's and commit perjury.

Carried out another search & found the silencer with Sheila's blood in. Then asked several relatives to sign false WS's and committ perjury.

----------

In either case I do not know why the police would ask the relatives to get involved.
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Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #669 on: May 22, 2021, 12:54:PM »
The police would also need to get BC and BW involved. They have said they were at WHF when the silencer was found.
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Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #670 on: May 22, 2021, 12:58:PM »
Seems to be an impossible situation -

It was impossible for the relatives to fabricate the silencer without police assistance.

There is no reason why the police would involve BW, BC PE, AE & RB in there own industrial frame.
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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #671 on: May 22, 2021, 01:01:PM »
I'll get back about that. I know it's a conundrum in the case.  I am going to replay each podcast and note some of the claims being made. I've also started grammatically editing Shaw's unfinished unpublished manuscript. I know it's not sourced but I am going to compare any similarities between the claims made by Shaw and info gleaned from podcasts. I will eventually post up a word doc containing Shaw, to make it easier to read.

I don't believe there was a motive to frame an innocent man, or frame him without caring about his guilt or innocence.  It is true that Jeremy was bisexual and also involved in drugs at a low level, and he was suspected of the caravan park break-in.  The police would have discovered these things and not have taken kindly to him, and these facts may have been background factors influencing the renewed interest in him, but to frame Jeremy simply out of dislike or disapproval of his minor criminal lifestyle would require a psychopathic or mentally-deranged police officer whose efforts go undetected in an investigation involving many hands.  Somebody would have stepped forward.  I accept it probably does happen in rare instances, but it is so rare that it's normally off the table for consideration, as there are hardly any recorded cases of it.

I find it much more plausible that individual police officers and relatives simply assumed - perhaps correctly - that Jeremy was guilty, and then some of them set about framing him on that premise.  Obviously the background factors above will have been a major influence on police officers.  They concluded he was guilty and interpreted evidence accordingly, bending the rules and cutting corners here and there to make the case fit.  That is how 'corrupt' miscarriages of justice happen.  The phrase used for the phenomenon is 'noble cause corruption'. 

This is what occurred in the Birmingham Six case.  Although I believe some of them were guilty, some were unquestionably innocent.  What happened is that the officers decided they were guilty and set out making a case that proved it.  It's a classic illustration of the dangers of abandoning due process and rule of law.

Closely-related to that is a situation where mistakes and errors are made with the evidence by police and forensic scientists, and instead of owning up to this, there is a cover-up of the mistakes in the belief that the accused or convicted individual is guilty anyway and in the knowledge that the police and scientists involved could be in serious trouble if they come clean and admit to mistakes and errors, even though there was no criminal intent involved. 

This can also happen at an organisational level, in which case it is normally inadvertent rather than an intentionally criminal effort to hide or destroy evidence.  For instance, an Essex Police Special Branch officer authorised the destruction of exhibits in 1995, did he not?  The actions of the Special Branch officer were probably entirely innocent, but even if he was following orders, his actions were grossly negligent.  He should have refused the order, ensured the evidence was secured, and then reported the matter upwards to the Chief Constable, and if necessary to an outside complaints body or different police force.  The police must uphold the rule of law above all else, in spirit and in its ethos and values, as much as the letter.  They cannot be a law unto themselves.

What about this business that has come out of Mike Ainsley holding evidence at home?  It cannot be right that this was allowed.

A much more common occurrence is when the police make a genuine mistake in their deductions that is influenced by the human tendency towards arrogance, bias and recklessness.  They decide somebody looks guilty, so he is guilty, and they build a case accordingly, ignoring and disregarding anything that calls their assumptions into question.  This is of course something that almost everybody does.

This is what occurred in the Stefan Kiszko case.  At some point, the officers decided poor Mr Kiszko was guilty and interpreted the evidence accordingly, disregarding evidence that didn't fit their preconceived conclusions.

My view of the Bamber case is that, if - a big if - Jeremy is innocent, then it boils down to mistakes and incompetence rather than general corruption, and has its roots in:

(i). the nature of the incident and crime scene itself, with each piece of evidence wide open to interpretation;

(ii). an idiosyncratic officer, Stan Jones; and,

(iii). pressure brought on the police by the relatives, especially Robert Boutflour, convinced of Jeremy's guilt.

But even if Jeremy is guilty, what we can still say about this case is that it shows quite well how a tiny group of people, in this case chiefly Stan Jones, Robert Boutflour, Peter Eaton, and Ann Eaton, can greatly influence a larger group - even technical experts - in following a given agenda and coming to certain conclusions.  I think the explanation for this is that the tiny group were emotionally-vested in it all (and maybe financially-vested, though the innocent camp have yet to convince me of this), while the larger group were merely acting as paid professionals and were willing to do as they were told or implicitly accept the narratives of others.  Again, this point underscores the importance of professional integrity and independence in all things.

Jeremy Bamber himself compounded a dangerous situation with his own naivety in openly answering police questions [Where was his solicitor?], joking around with Julie, neglecting to deal with the estate in an efficient, tactful and sensitive manner, and speaking ad hoc to police officers and relatives about incriminating matters, when he should have kept his mouth shut and kept them at arm's length. 

The conduct of the trial was also a factor in it all.  The rather passive 'reasonable doubt' defence put forward and the misdirections to the jury, played a part.

It's complex and messy.  Reducing it all to a simple conspiracy is entertaining and would make a good novel or film, but doesn't reflect what really happened, in my view.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #672 on: May 22, 2021, 01:05:PM »
Considering the mountain of evidence against Bamber, the most plausible explanation is -

The police had already set up the industrial frame department. The relatives approached the police with the silencer idea, which the police liked & ran with. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 01:06:PM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #673 on: May 22, 2021, 01:10:PM »
I don't believe there was a motive to frame an innocent man, or frame him without caring about his guilt or innocence.  It is true that Jeremy was bisexual and also involved in drugs at a low level, and he was suspected of the caravan park break-in.  The police would have discovered these things and not have taken kindly to him, and these facts may have been background factors influencing the renewed interest in him, but to frame Jeremy simply out of dislike or disapproval of his minor criminal lifestyle would require a psychopathic or mentally-deranged police officer whose efforts go undetected in an investigation involving many hands.  Somebody would have stepped forward.  I accept it probably does happen in rare instances, but it is so rare that it's normally off the table for consideration, as there are hardly any recorded cases of it.

I find it much more plausible that individual police officers and relatives simply assumed - perhaps correctly - that Jeremy was guilty, and then some of them set about framing him on that premise.  Obviously the background factors above will have been a major influence on police officers.  They concluded he was guilty and interpreted evidence accordingly, bending the rules and cutting corners here and there to make the case fit.  That is how 'corrupt' miscarriages of justice happen.  The phrase used for the phenomenon is 'noble cause corruption'. 

This is what occurred in the Birmingham Six case.  Although I believe some of them were guilty, some were unquestionably innocent.  What happened is that the officers decided they were guilty and set out making a case that proved it.  It's a classic illustration of the dangers of abandoning due process and rule of law.

Closely-related to that is a situation where mistakes and errors are made with the evidence by police and forensic scientists, and instead of owning up to this, there is a cover-up of the mistakes in the belief that the accused or convicted individual is guilty anyway and in the knowledge that the police and scientists involved could be in serious trouble if they come clean and admit to mistakes and errors, even though there was no criminal intent involved. 

This can also happen at an organisational level, in which case it is normally inadvertent rather than an intentionally criminal effort to hide or destroy evidence.  For instance, an Essex Police Special Branch officer authorised the destruction of exhibits in 1995, did he not?  The actions of the Special Branch officer were probably entirely innocent, but even if he was following orders, his actions were grossly negligent.  He should have refused the order, ensured the evidence was secured, and then reported the matter upwards to the Chief Constable, and if necessary to an outside complaints body or different police force.  The police must uphold the rule of law above all else, in spirit and in its ethos and values, as much as the letter.  They cannot be a law unto themselves.

What about this business that has come out of Mike Ainsley holding evidence at home?  It cannot be right that this was allowed.

A much more common occurrence is when the police make a genuine mistake in their deductions that is influenced by the human tendency towards arrogance, bias and recklessness.  They decide somebody looks guilty, so he is guilty, and they build a case accordingly, ignoring and disregarding anything that calls their assumptions into question.  This is of course something that almost everybody does.

This is what occurred in the Stefan Kiszko case.  At some point, the officers decided poor Mr Kiszko was guilty and interpreted the evidence accordingly, disregarding evidence that didn't fit their preconceived conclusions.

My view of the Bamber case is that, if - a big if - Jeremy is innocent, then it boils down to mistakes and incompetence rather than general corruption, and has its roots in:

(i). the nature of the incident itself, with each piece of evidence wide open to interpretation;

(ii). an idiosyncratic officer, Stan Jones; and,

(iii). pressure brought on the police by the relatives, especially Robert Boutflour, convinced of Jeremy's guilt.

But even if Jeremy is guilty, what we can still say about this case is that it shows quite well how a tiny group of people, in this case chiefly Stan Jones, Robert Boutflour, Peter Eaton, and Ann Eaton, can greatly influence a larger group - even technical experts - in following a given agenda and coming to certain conclusions.  I think the explanation for this is that the tiny group were emotionally-vested in it all (and maybe financially-vested, though the innocent camp have yet to convince me of this), while the larger group were merely acting as paid professionals and were willing to do as they were told or implicitly accept the narratives of others.  Again, this point underscores the importance of professional integrity and independence in all things.

Jeremy Bamber himself compounded a dangerous situation with his own naivety in openly answering police questions [Where was his solicitor?], joking around with Julie, neglecting to deal with the estate in an efficient, tactful and sensitive manner, and speaking ad hoc to police officers and relatives about incriminating matters, when he should have kept his mouth shut and kept them at arm's length. 

The conduct of the trial was also a factor in it all.  The rather passive 'reasonable doubt' defence put forward and the misdirections to the jury, played a part.

It's complex and messy.  Reducing it all to a simple conspiracy is entertaining and would make a good novel or film, but doesn't reflect what really happened, in my view.


'Jeremy Bamber himself compounded a dangerous situation with his own naivety in openly answering police questions'.

Thanks QC.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #674 on: May 22, 2021, 01:12:PM »
I don't believe there was a motive to frame an innocent man, or frame him without caring about his guilt or innocence.  It is true that Jeremy was bisexual and also involved in drugs at a low level, and he was suspected of the caravan park break-in.  The police would have discovered these things and not have taken kindly to him, and these facts may have been background factors influencing the renewed interest in him, but to frame Jeremy simply out of dislike or disapproval of his minor criminal lifestyle would require a psychopathic or mentally-deranged police officer whose efforts go undetected in an investigation involving many hands.  Somebody would have stepped forward.  I accept it probably does happen in rare instances, but it is so rare that it's normally off the table for consideration, as there are hardly any recorded cases of it.

I find it much more plausible that individual police officers and relatives simply assumed - perhaps correctly - that Jeremy was guilty, and then some of them set about framing him on that premise.  Obviously the background factors above will have been a major influence on police officers.  They concluded he was guilty and interpreted evidence accordingly, bending the rules and cutting corners here and there to make the case fit.  That is how 'corrupt' miscarriages of justice happen.  The phrase used for the phenomenon is 'noble cause corruption'. 

This is what occurred in the Birmingham Six case.  Although I believe some of them were guilty, some were unquestionably innocent.  What happened is that the officers decided they were guilty and set out making a case that proved it.  It's a classic illustration of the dangers of abandoning due process and rule of law.

Closely-related to that is a situation where mistakes and errors are made with the evidence by police and forensic scientists, and instead of owning up to this, there is a cover-up of the mistakes in the belief that the accused or convicted individual is guilty anyway and in the knowledge that the police and scientists involved could be in serious trouble if they come clean and admit to mistakes and errors, even though there was no criminal intent involved. 

This can also happen at an organisational level, in which case it is normally inadvertent rather than an intentionally criminal effort to hide or destroy evidence.  For instance, an Essex Police Special Branch officer authorised the destruction of exhibits in 1995, did he not?  The actions of the Special Branch officer were probably entirely innocent, but even if he was following orders, his actions were grossly negligent.  He should have refused the order, ensured the evidence was secured, and then reported the matter upwards to the Chief Constable, and if necessary to an outside complaints body or different police force.  The police must uphold the rule of law above all else, in spirit and in its ethos and values, as much as the letter.  They cannot be a law unto themselves.

What about this business that has come out of Mike Ainsley holding evidence at home?  It cannot be right that this was allowed.

A much more common occurrence is when the police make a genuine mistake in their deductions that is influenced by the human tendency towards arrogance, bias and recklessness.  They decide somebody looks guilty, so he is guilty, and they build a case accordingly, ignoring and disregarding anything that calls their assumptions into question.  This is of course something that almost everybody does.

This is what occurred in the Stefan Kiszko case.  At some point, the officers decided poor Mr Kiszko was guilty and interpreted the evidence accordingly, disregarding evidence that didn't fit their preconceived conclusions.

My view of the Bamber case is that, if - a big if - Jeremy is innocent, then it boils down to mistakes and incompetence rather than general corruption, and has its roots in:

(i). the nature of the incident and crime scene itself, with each piece of evidence wide open to interpretation;

(ii). an idiosyncratic officer, Stan Jones; and,

(iii). pressure brought on the police by the relatives, especially Robert Boutflour, convinced of Jeremy's guilt.

But even if Jeremy is guilty, what we can still say about this case is that it shows quite well how a tiny group of people, in this case chiefly Stan Jones, Robert Boutflour, Peter Eaton, and Ann Eaton, can greatly influence a larger group - even technical experts - in following a given agenda and coming to certain conclusions.  I think the explanation for this is that the tiny group were emotionally-vested in it all (and maybe financially-vested, though the innocent camp have yet to convince me of this), while the larger group were merely acting as paid professionals and were willing to do as they were told or implicitly accept the narratives of others.  Again, this point underscores the importance of professional integrity and independence in all things.

Jeremy Bamber himself compounded a dangerous situation with his own naivety in openly answering police questions [Where was his solicitor?], joking around with Julie, neglecting to deal with the estate in an efficient, tactful and sensitive manner, and speaking ad hoc to police officers and relatives about incriminating matters, when he should have kept his mouth shut and kept them at arm's length. 

The conduct of the trial was also a factor in it all.  The rather passive 'reasonable doubt' defence put forward and the misdirections to the jury, played a part.

It's complex and messy.  Reducing it all to a simple conspiracy is entertaining and would make a good novel or film, but doesn't reflect what really happened, in my view.


(iii). pressure brought on the police by the relatives, especially Robert Boutflour.

----------

It's good to know the police cave in to pressure from elderly relatives. But also disappointing.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.