Jeremy Bamber Forum
OTHER HIGH PROFILE CASES => Other cases => Topic started by: JackieD on November 25, 2017, 09:17:PM
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Thought provoking piece in the telegraph
Society did right by James Bulger’s killers
Deborah Orr
It was humane to pursue the hope of rehabilitation. And it’s right to act decisively now that Jon Venables is judged to present new risks
They were Child A and Child B. The public weren’t told the names of the boys, Robert Thompson and Jon Venables, until they had been found guilty of the murder of two-year-old James Bulger in 1993. The decision by the judge to reveal the identities of the pair was controversial, causing complications and difficulties that were outlined by Sir David Omand in his 2010 review of the probation service’s handling of the case.
James Bulger killer back in jail after being caught with abuse images again
Nevertheless, despite the logistical and moral difficulties the judge’s decision unleashed, we are where we are. The bare bones of the progress the two men have made since their release seven years ago is common knowledge. Thompson is reported as living a stable life in a stable community with a partner who knows of his past. Venables has just returned to custody for a second time, for offences involving child pornography.
At the time of the trial it was Child A, Thompson, who was characterised as the moving force behind the long, slow, dawdling, merciless crime. Venables’ defence lawyer described Thompson as a “pied piper”. A detective on the case, Phil Roberts, forcefully informed the media that this was his impression too. Others said that Thompson showed no remorse, while Venables did. As the extreme delinquency of Venables continues into his mid-30s, it’s tempting to conclude that they got it wrong. Very tempting.
Except that the obvious conclusion isn’t always the right one. Perhaps the situation is counterintuitive. Maybe Venables is less able to close the door on his past precisely because his guilt and shame are greater. Is it likely? Is it possible? Does it even matter? The most obvious fact of all remains. Those boys did something profoundly and outlandishly cruel and wrong. One of them still hangs around the periphery of that dark place, even though he should have the intelligence and maturity to understand the consequences, for himself and for the children in the images he seeks.
Is it even right to speculate?
One difficulty is that releasing personal information in the public interest tends to feed a desire for further information. In a case as horrific as this one – the two remain the youngest convicted murderers in modern English history – a desire for more information would always have persisted. People are drawn to the bleakest corners of human capability, confronted by the choice, as framed by former prime minister John Major, as to whether the thrust of their response should be to “understand” or “condemn”.
Liberals like to believe in the perfection of the newborn human as much as Christians do
For a lot of people, the trajectory of Venables since his term in rehabilitative custody would confirm condemnation to be the correct response. But even that isn’t a straightforward judgment to make. For our understanding of human malfunction has markedly increased since 1993. Neuroscience has advanced, in part due to the development of diffusion tensor MRI technology. A study conducted at King’s College London in 2009 that considered nine diagnosed psychopaths found that their brain images showed significant deficit in the uncinate fasciculus. This connects the amygdala, which controls major emotional responses including fear and aggression, to the orbitofrontal cortex, which controls important decision-making. It’s a physical tract, an infrastructure for the neural pathways that can be strengthened or weakened by environment. A defective tract, possibly congenital, means defective thinking, possibly congenital. Which is not to say that either Thompson or Venables themselves are psychopaths. I know no more than anyone else with access to the internet, and probably a lot less than many. But experts who have had access to the two men resist such a diagnosis. My wider point is more about the condemning and the understanding.
ne of the fascinating things about this case is that, despite public revulsion at the idea the boys could be helped to live useful lives, those in favour of understanding have been vindicated, thus far, in the case of Thompson. Yet even this is a moral hall of mirrors. If Thompson is the one more capable of control, then why didn’t he exercise it? The positive aspect of this is that one possible conclusion is that therapeutic help enabled him to develop and grow more typical neurological regulation. Environmental intervention can cause people to change, especially children and young people.
But what of the people who can’t change, or can’t change enough? The King’s College research suggests environment is not everything. Why should it be? Congenital physical abnormalities in the brain, by far our most complex organ, are surely far more likely than congenital heart defects.
There are both condemners and understanders who are too keen on this logical assumption. Liberals like to believe in the perfection of the newborn human as much as Christians do. It’s one of the irritations of humanism. For them, environment is all. Condemners, however, tend to be big on moral responsibility. This guy had a much worse childhood than that guy, they’ll say, and he did OK. They’re Old Testament. They love the idea of evil and wickedness, of full human choice and the full human choice of darkness. Even the word dyslexia, for them, is like a red rag to a bull.
Neuroscientists create ‘atlas’ showing how words are organised in the brain
The condemners have some grounds for scepticism, by their own lights anyway. In the US, brain scans are being used more often in criminal trials, largely for technical reasons, to argue that a convict’s sentence should be reduced because his original defence didn’t present evidence of brain abnormalities, or that his sentence should be lighter because brain deficiencies reduce culpability.
Again, though, all of these people, the lawyers and those who dislike the science they are using, miss the point. Understanding is not a synonym for forgiveness. No matter how capable or incapable people are of controlling their actions, they are sometimes a danger to others. It’s for those others, not just for moral satisfaction, that freedom sometimes needs to be restricted or curtailed. Jon Venables, right now, is exactly where Jon Venables needs to be.
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I totally agree
It was humane to pursue the hope of rehabilitation. And it’s right to act decisively now that Jon Venables is judged to present new risks
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I totally agree
It was humane to pursue the hope of rehabilitation. And it’s right to act decisively now that Jon Venables is judged to present new risks
I'm not sure whether Jon Venables' amygdala is damaged or not, but he has been out of prison for years, I assume because he convinced psychiatrists that he did not pose a risk to society. What is hard to understand is how you can punish someone in advance for a crime they may commit in the future, and how professionals can correctly assess the state of his mind at any given time.
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I'm not sure whether Jon Venables' amygdala is damaged or not, but he has been out of prison for years, I assume because he convinced psychiatrists that he did not pose a risk to society. What is hard to understand is how you can punish someone in advance for a crime they may commit in the future, and how professionals can correctly assess the state of his mind at any given time.
Steve,he'd proved to be what he was at the age of 10. Nobody seems to understand nor grasp how evil manifests itself in future years. Too many do-gooders busy wailing " he's only a child himself " with no mention about him having been an evil one. Commit such a heinous crime at 10 and there's nothing down for that person except a continued life of crime.
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At least Denise and Ralph Bulger would agree with me and their views on this terrible crime are more important than anyone's !! God bless them both.x
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At least Denise and Ralph Bulger would agree with me and their views on this terrible crime are more important than anyone's !! God bless them both.x
I agree that the victims' wishes should be taken into consideration, but what I'm struggling to understand is why he was let out at 18 if he posed a risk to children, what exactly this new offence is (and why aren't we punishing the webmasters who host these depraved sites) and if he hasn't made a life for himself (banned from Merseyside so I assume unable to form friendships with people whom he might have been more familiar with) and whether it was the right decision to expose him and Thompson to the full glare of publicity at the time.
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I agree that the victims' wishes should be taken into consideration, but what I'm struggling to understand is why he was let out at 18 if he posed a risk to children, what exactly this new offence is (and why aren't we punishing the webmasters who host these depraved sites) and if he hasn't made a life for himself (banned from Merseyside so I assume unable to form friendships with people whom he might have been more familiar with) and whether it was the right decision to expose him and Thompson to the full glare of publicity at the time.
Ralph Bulger is all for removing the anonymity and hidden whereabouts of the likes of Venables,which I'm in favour of for the sake of other parents. So what, if he got bumped-off,it's only what he deserves and I doubt his death this way would stir up any anger.
Not for the first time,Venables had been found with child porn again,so the urge for a life of crime is there and would be only a matter of time before he injured another child.
I feel so sorry for Denise Bulger as every crime one of those monsters commits,is a step backward for Denise who can't move forward with her life knowing that those who killed her beautiful little boy are still alive. What a truly brave woman.
A bit more re-training is needed by some psychiatrists who fail to spot certain signs. There has always been the " good behaviour " card being played when releasing prisoners,even those who've committed ugly crimes and the huge mistakes made by freeing them only to re-offend.
Dale Cregan,another monster who's been housed in Ashworth is now being transferred to a prison after it's taken 2 years at least to realise that the man is insane. He'll never change.
The 15 year old who murdered her half sister of 7 years of age is only going to serve 4 years ? Mark my words the same one will inflict her jealous evil ways onto someone else,when free.
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Ralph Bulger is all for removing the anonymity and hidden whereabouts of the likes of Venables,which I'm in favour of for the sake of other parents. So what, if he got bumped-off,it's only what he deserves and I doubt his death this way would stir up any anger.
Not for the first time,Venables had been found with child porn again,so the urge for a life of crime is there and would be only a matter of time before he injured another child.
I feel so sorry for Denise Bulger as every crime one of those monsters commits,is a step backward for Denise who can't move forward with her life knowing that those who killed her beautiful little boy are still alive. What a truly brave woman.
A bit more re-training is needed by some psychiatrists who fail to spot certain signs. There has always been the " good behaviour " card being played when releasing prisoners,even those who've committed ugly crimes and the huge mistakes made by freeing them only to re-offend.
Dale Cregan,another monster who's been housed in Ashworth is now being transferred to a prison after it's taken 2 years at least to realise that the man is insane. He'll never change.
The 15 year old who murdered her half sister of 7 years of age is only going to serve 4 years ? Mark my words the same one will inflict her jealous evil ways onto someone else,when free.
The problem is that the penal system has to incorporate a degree of rehabilitation as well as punishment, and I think this is made very much harder when names of the perpetrators are splashed all over the newspapers with the lurid details of the crimes. If the psychiatrists are in any doubt these people should be detained indefinitely but I would have thought if they expressed a sustained wish say after a 10 year period to want to start again the age at which they committed the crime along with the current state of their mental health should be taken into consideration.
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The problem is that the penal system has to incorporate a degree of rehabilitation as well as punishment, and I think this is made very much harder when names of the perpetrators are splashed all over the newspapers with the lurid details of the crimes. If the psychiatrists are in any doubt these people should be detained indefinitely but I would have thought if they expressed a sustained wish say after a 10 year period to want to start again the age at which they committed the crime along with the current state of their mental health should be taken into consideration.
Agreed Steve , mental health should always be taken into consideration and treated. The prisons are full of offenders with real mental health problems, many have been abused themselves as children.
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Steve,he'd proved to be what he was at the age of 10. Nobody seems to understand nor grasp how evil manifests itself in future years. Too many do-gooders busy wailing " he's only a child himself " with no mention about him having been an evil one. Commit such a heinous crime at 10 and there's nothing down for that person except a continued life of crime.
So you don't agree that the words/deeds/behaviours of a child's parents reflect or impact in any way on the child's development, emotionally and mentally?
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So you don't agree that the words/deeds/behaviours of a child's parents reflect or impact in any way on the child's development, emotionally and mentally?
Of course I do.I've explained this in as many words if you care to read my post on child killers. Why do you keep saying things like this ?
The source of any mental health issues should be sorted or removed.
An unstable background is a recipe for disaster in a child's life as they'll carry that stigma for the rest of their lives in some way.
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Of course I do.I've explained this in as many words if you care to read my post on child killers. Why do you keep saying things like this ?
The source of any mental health issues should be sorted or removed.
An unstable background is a recipe for disaster in a child's life as they'll carry that stigma for the rest of their lives in some way.
I think you'll find they may carry MUCH more than "stigma" -although it's interesting that you put this before possible irreparable mental and psychological damage- until/unless it can be sorted out. The risk is ever present that they'll go on to have and create problems in varying degrees of seriousness, for themselves and others, all through their lives.
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I think you'll find they may carry MUCH more than "stigma" -although it's interesting that you put this before possible irreparable mental and psychological damage- until/unless it can be sorted out. The risk is ever present that they'll go on to have and create problems in varying degrees of seriousness, for themselves and others, all through their lives.
They will indeed and they do !! A huge chip on their shoulder !
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They will indeed and they do !! A huge chip on their shoulder !
Created by lack of self worth, anger, pain, jealousy, resentment, probably with no idea why. Justified, wouldn't you agree?
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Created by lack of self worth, anger, pain, jealousy, resentment, probably with no idea why. Justified, wouldn't you agree?
Most definitely.
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Most definitely.
Joy of joys! We're singing from the same hymn-sheet :o ;D ;D ;D
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Joy of joys! We're singing from the same hymn-sheet :o ;D ;D ;D
I should think so----------we'll be going carol-singing next.
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I should think so----------we'll be going carol-singing next.
Let's not overstretch ourselves ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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nice to see you's agreeing and having a joke girls.setting a good example :)
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Thinking about Venables, sequestered in a closed unit for ten years, not possibly fully cognizant of the heinousness of the crime and the depth of others' reactions to it, probably with very little natural talents, then transposed to an alien southern England environment and expected to kick-start his life, make new friends and accomplish something, someone who probably already had a low self-esteem and feeling of self-worth, as if life wasn't confusing enough engaging in a sexual liaison with one of his guards, which surely cannot have helped to rebuild any trust he might have had in the penal system and its authority with which he had become familiar.
I would just say that he had been assessed and evidently deemed not a risk to children, yet if is there an ingenuous explanation for his search for hook-ups with single mothers there cannot be one for the alluring child pornography sites: is he in fact not rehabilitated at all, a clandestine paedophile for which there is no cure, and now no hope for such people to reintegrate, as we are told he is now incarcerated once again and back on suicide watch.
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Let's not overstretch ourselves ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ooooo no. You'd probably sing all the wrong notes anyway. :)) :)) :)) :)) I don't do descant.
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Ooooo no. You'd probably sing all the wrong notes anyway. :)) :)) :)) :)) I don't do descant.
You may rest assured that I only sing the notes in the exact way the composer has written them..................unless I'm improvising, but even then it's in tune. I'm long past descanting. I stay within range.
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You may rest assured that I only sing the notes in the exact way the composer has written them..................unless I'm improvising, but even then it's in tune. I'm long past descanting. I stay within range.
I see.All the right notes,but in the wrong places.
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I see.All the right notes,but in the wrong places.
No, exactly in the order the composer writes if I'm singing with others.
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Thinking about Venables, sequestered in a closed unit for ten years, not possibly fully cognizant of the heinousness of the crime and the depth of others' reactions to it, probably with very little natural talents, then transposed to an alien southern England environment and expected to kick-start his life, make new friends and accomplish something, someone who probably already had a low self-esteem and feeling of self-worth, as if life wasn't confusing enough engaging in a sexual liaison with one of his guards, which surely cannot have helped to rebuild any trust he might have had in the penal system and its authority with which he had become familiar.
I would just say that he had been assessed and evidently deemed not a risk to children, yet if is there an ingenuous explanation for his search for hook-ups with single mothers there cannot be one for the alluring child pornography sites: is he in fact not rehabilitated at all, a clandestine paedophile for which there is no cure, and now no hope for such people to reintegrate, as we are told he is now incarcerated once again and back on suicide watch.
Because of the crime he committed at the age of ten he should have been seen as a risk to children---a very high one too. I can't understand those who say that these people aren't risks.
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Because of the crime he committed at the age of ten he should have been seen as a risk to children---a very high one too. I can't understand those who say that these people aren't risks.
Yet his equally young partner in crime seems to have turned his life around. I believe he'd now married with a child.
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Yet his equally young partner in crime seems to have turned his life around. I believe he'd now married with a child.
yes jane that might show who was the leader.at one time they both blamed each other as to who was the leader in the abduction
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Yet his equally young partner in crime seems to have turned his life around. I believe he'd now married with a child.
Even at 10 years of age you could see the cold set eyes on Venables compared to Thompson.
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Even at 10 years of age you could see the cold set eyes on Venables compared to Thompson.
yes i agree lookout he had the most cold evil looking eyes (blank) i dont like to talk of children like that but in his case its true
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yes i agree lookout he had the most cold evil looking eyes (blank) i dont like to talk of children like that but in his case its true
With respect that is absolute rubbish. listen to the interviews on and off record from those involved. RT was the child with no feelings, no morality who was just cold with no emotional investment. Nobody knows what happened exactly that day but the consensus is that RT was the main instigator and main perpetrator.
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With respect that is absolute rubbish. listen to the interviews on and off record from those involved. RT was the child with no feelings, no morality who was just cold with no emotional investment. Nobody knows what happened exactly that day but the consensus is that RT was the main instigator and main perpetrator.
Doesnt alter the fact that Venables had cold evil looking eyes as well. He just can’t seem to stay away from trouble when given the chance.
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Doesnt alter the fact that Venables had cold evil looking eyes as well. He just can’t seem to stay away from trouble when given the chance.
Right. We never hear about the other one.
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Right. We never hear about the other one.
Thats true Lookout it’s all about him, rumour has it, he was housed near us during his younger years? I bet he was one of these rewarded for good behaviour, took on outings, given prezzie’s etc by social whenever he was good, while our kids at School can’t take a holiday out of School term for a week.
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Thats true Lookout it’s all about him, rumour has it, he was housed near us during his younger years? I bet he was one of these rewarded for good behaviour, took on outings, given prezzie’s etc by social whenever he was good, while our kids at School can’t take a holiday out of School term for a week.
Makes you sick doesn't it ? It also makes my blood boil too.
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Thats true Lookout it’s all about him, rumour has it, he was housed near us during his younger years? I bet he was one of these rewarded for good behaviour, took on outings, given prezzie’s etc by social whenever he was good, while our kids at School can’t take a holiday out of School term for a week.
yes that sounds right ,justice
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With respect that is absolute rubbish. listen to the interviews on and off record from those involved. RT was the child with no feelings, no morality who was just cold with no emotional investment. Nobody knows what happened exactly that day but the consensus is that RT was the main instigator and main perpetrator.
like i said its his cold blank stare that iam talking about.much like john duffy the railway rapist and killer.as for who was the ringleader consensus is just speculation as they each blamed one another we can not say for sure who the leader was.
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There always has to be a ringleader/instigator in any crime,as these people are cowards too who'd never " work " alone.
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Thats true Lookout it’s all about him, rumour has it, he was housed near us during his younger years? I bet he was one of these rewarded for good behaviour, took on outings, given prezzie’s etc by social whenever he was good, while our kids at School can’t take a holiday out of School term for a week.
Think you might have left out the one -and hugely important thing- that he'd never been given, that your kids had in bucket loads and were surrounded by -LOVE. "Things" however expensive, are poor compensation. I'm not condoning -just to be clear- but you probably know that.
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like i said its his cold blank stare that iam talking about.much like john duffy the railway rapist and killer.as for who was the ringleader consensus is just speculation as they each blamed one another we can not say for sure who the leader was.
Who was the ringleader was gauged from the detectives who interviewed the boys and solicitors who represented them.
RT laid flowers after the bodies were found. If that is not deeply deeply concerning, I do not what is.
"I went after Robert Thompson, arrested him and took him to Walton Lane police station to interview him," he told BBC Radio Cymru.
"When I first saw him, a 10-year-old, I thought no way he could be responsible for murder.
"He was shrewd. He was lying.
He said it was not hard to interview him, as he had experience of questioning youngsters. But Thompson was "a vicious person," he added.
Mr Roberts saw Venables when he appeared in court. He described him as "hyperactive" but believed Thompson was the "ringleader" behind the murder." - Phil Roberts Detective who arrested RT
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Albert Kirby - “The general perception from his background and the police interviews was that Thompson was the major aggressor." - he was the Detective who led the hunt for the killers
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Albert Kirby - “The general perception from his background and the police interviews was that Thompson was the major aggressor." - he was the Detective who led the hunt for the killers
its still just an opinion of kirby's others on the case may differ with him, is he the only officer involved in the case to express his opinion or were there others
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its still just an opinion of kirby's others on the case may differ with him, is he the only officer involved in the case to express his opinion or were there others
Found this interesting Sami, in the guardian.
It was Jon Venables, not Robert Thompson, who had a record of violence, having attempted to throttle another boy at school. ;)
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Found this interesting Sami, in the guardian.
It was Jon Venables, not Robert Thompson, who had a record of violence, having attempted to throttle another boy at school. ;)
yes that is interesting justice,i know they were just kids but would like to know what sort of discipline they received at home when misbehaving
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yes that is interesting justice,i know they were just kids but would like to know what sort of discipline they received at home when misbehaving
Apparently it was said that Venables father had bought a horror film which had depicted a child being killed,of which Venables had said he hadn't watched,yet the crime he'd committed was a similar enactment to the film.
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Apparently it was said that Venables father had bought a horror film which had depicted a child being killed,of which Venables had said he hadn't watched,yet the crime he'd committed was a similar enactment to the film.
that is interesting lookout because for years people have been warning that young children should not be allowed to watch films or play computer games that are based on violence and killing.
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that is interesting lookout because for years people have been warning that young children should not be allowed to watch films or play computer games that are based on violence and killing.
Any parent who has such films in the house want shooting because children are very vulnerable and also impressionable where there's violence whether it's actually within the home or on screen . No child should be subject to either as it's bound to have its effects one way or another. It should be on the list of cruelty and abuse.
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Even an adults mind must be unsound to watch things like that anyway.
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Any parent who has such films in the house want shooting because children are very vulnerable and also impressionable where there's violence whether it's actually within the home or on screen . No child should be subject to either as it's bound to have its effects one way or another. It should be on the list of cruelty and abuse.
yes i agree