Author Topic: Jon Venables Back In Prison  (Read 9533 times)

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Offline JackieD

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Jon Venables Back In Prison
« on: November 25, 2017, 09:17:PM »

Thought provoking piece in the telegraph



Society did right by James Bulger’s killers

Deborah Orr

It was humane to pursue the hope of rehabilitation. And it’s right to act decisively now that Jon Venables is judged to present new risks



They were Child A and Child B. The public weren’t told the names of the boys, Robert Thompson and Jon Venables, until they had been found guilty of the murder of two-year-old James Bulger in 1993. The decision by the judge to reveal the identities of the pair was controversial, causing complications and difficulties that were outlined by Sir David Omand in his 2010 review of the probation service’s handling of the case.
James Bulger killer back in jail after being caught with abuse images again
Nevertheless, despite the logistical and moral difficulties the judge’s decision unleashed, we are where we are. The bare bones of the progress the two men have made since their release seven years ago is common knowledge. Thompson is reported as living a stable life in a stable community with a partner who knows of his past. Venables has just returned to custody for a second time, for offences involving child pornography.

At the time of the trial it was Child A, Thompson, who was characterised as the moving force behind the long, slow, dawdling, merciless crime. Venables’ defence lawyer described Thompson as a “pied piper”. A detective on the case, Phil Roberts, forcefully informed the media that this was his impression too. Others said that Thompson showed no remorse, while Venables did. As the extreme delinquency of Venables continues into his mid-30s, it’s tempting to conclude that they got it wrong. Very tempting.
Except that the obvious conclusion isn’t always the right one. Perhaps the situation is counterintuitive. Maybe Venables is less able to close the door on his past precisely because his guilt and shame are greater. Is it likely? Is it possible? Does it even matter? The most obvious fact of all remains. Those boys did something profoundly and outlandishly cruel and wrong. One of them still hangs around the periphery of that dark place, even though he should have the intelligence and maturity to understand the consequences, for himself and for the children in the images he seeks.
Is it even right to speculate?
One difficulty is that releasing personal information in the public interest tends to feed a desire for further information. In a case as horrific as this one – the two remain the youngest convicted murderers in modern English history – a desire for more information would always have persisted. People are drawn to the bleakest corners of human capability, confronted by the choice, as framed by former prime minister John Major, as to whether the thrust of their response should be to “understand” or “condemn”.
Liberals like to believe in the perfection of the newborn human as much as Christians do
For a lot of people, the trajectory of Venables since his term in rehabilitative custody would confirm condemnation to be the correct response. But even that isn’t a straightforward judgment to make. For our understanding of human malfunction has markedly increased since 1993. Neuroscience has advanced, in part due to the development of diffusion tensor MRI technology. A study conducted at King’s College London in 2009 that considered nine diagnosed psychopaths found that their brain images showed significant deficit in the uncinate fasciculus. This connects the amygdala, which controls major emotional responses including fear and aggression, to the orbitofrontal cortex, which controls important decision-making. It’s a physical tract, an infrastructure for the neural pathways that can be strengthened or weakened by environment. A defective tract, possibly congenital, means defective thinking, possibly congenital. Which is not to say that either Thompson or Venables themselves are psychopaths. I know no more than anyone else with access to the internet, and probably a lot less than many. But experts who have had access to the two men resist such a diagnosis. My wider point is more about the condemning and the understanding.
ne of the fascinating things about this case is that, despite public revulsion at the idea the boys could be helped to live useful lives, those in favour of understanding have been vindicated, thus far, in the case of Thompson. Yet even this is a moral hall of mirrors. If Thompson is the one more capable of control, then why didn’t he exercise it? The positive aspect of this is that one possible conclusion is that therapeutic help enabled him to develop and grow more typical neurological regulation. Environmental intervention can cause people to change, especially children and young people.
But what of the people who can’t change, or can’t change enough? The King’s College research suggests environment is not everything. Why should it be? Congenital physical abnormalities in the brain, by far our most complex organ, are surely far more likely than congenital heart defects.
There are both condemners and understanders who are too keen on this logical assumption. Liberals like to believe in the perfection of the newborn human as much as Christians do. It’s one of the irritations of humanism. For them, environment is all. Condemners, however, tend to be big on moral responsibility. This guy had a much worse childhood than that guy, they’ll say, and he did OK. They’re Old Testament. They love the idea of evil and wickedness, of full human choice and the full human choice of darkness. Even the word dyslexia, for them, is like a red rag to a bull.
Neuroscientists create ‘atlas’ showing how words are organised in the brain
The condemners have some grounds for scepticism, by their own lights anyway. In the US, brain scans are being used more often in criminal trials, largely for technical reasons, to argue that a convict’s sentence should be reduced because his original defence didn’t present evidence of brain abnormalities, or that his sentence should be lighter because brain deficiencies reduce culpability.
Again, though, all of these people, the lawyers and those who dislike the science they are using, miss the point. Understanding is not a synonym for forgiveness. No matter how capable or incapable people are of controlling their actions, they are sometimes a danger to others. It’s for those others, not just for moral satisfaction, that freedom sometimes needs to be restricted or curtailed. Jon Venables, right now, is exactly where Jon Venables needs to be.
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline JackieD

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 09:19:PM »
I totally agree

It was humane to pursue the hope of rehabilitation. And it’s right to act decisively now that Jon Venables is judged to present new risks
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2017, 09:41:PM »
I totally agree

It was humane to pursue the hope of rehabilitation. And it’s right to act decisively now that Jon Venables is judged to present new risks
I'm not sure whether Jon Venables' amygdala is damaged or not, but he has been out of prison for years, I assume because he convinced psychiatrists that he did not pose a risk to society. What is hard to understand is how you can punish someone in advance for a crime they may commit in the future, and how professionals can correctly assess the state of his mind at any given time.

Offline lookout

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2017, 02:24:PM »
I'm not sure whether Jon Venables' amygdala is damaged or not, but he has been out of prison for years, I assume because he convinced psychiatrists that he did not pose a risk to society. What is hard to understand is how you can punish someone in advance for a crime they may commit in the future, and how professionals can correctly assess the state of his mind at any given time.






Steve,he'd proved to be what he was at the age of 10. Nobody seems to understand nor grasp how evil manifests itself in future years. Too many do-gooders busy wailing " he's only a child himself " with no mention about him having been an evil one. Commit such a heinous crime at 10 and there's nothing down for that person except a continued life of crime.

Offline lookout

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2017, 03:07:PM »
At least Denise and Ralph Bulger would agree with me and their views on this terrible crime are more important than anyone's !! God bless them both.x

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2017, 05:08:PM »
At least Denise and Ralph Bulger would agree with me and their views on this terrible crime are more important than anyone's !! God bless them both.x
I agree that the victims' wishes should be taken into consideration, but what I'm struggling to understand is why he was let out at 18 if he posed a risk to children, what exactly this new offence is (and why aren't we punishing the webmasters who host these depraved sites) and if he hasn't made a life for himself (banned from Merseyside so I assume unable to form friendships with people whom he might have been more familiar with) and whether it was the right decision to expose him and Thompson to the full glare of publicity at the time.

Offline lookout

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2017, 05:50:PM »
I agree that the victims' wishes should be taken into consideration, but what I'm struggling to understand is why he was let out at 18 if he posed a risk to children, what exactly this new offence is (and why aren't we punishing the webmasters who host these depraved sites) and if he hasn't made a life for himself (banned from Merseyside so I assume unable to form friendships with people whom he might have been more familiar with) and whether it was the right decision to expose him and Thompson to the full glare of publicity at the time.





Ralph Bulger is all for removing the anonymity and hidden whereabouts of the likes of Venables,which I'm in favour of for the sake of other parents. So what, if he got bumped-off,it's only what he deserves and I doubt his death this way would stir up any anger.
Not for the first time,Venables had been found with child porn again,so the urge for a life of crime is there and would be only a matter of time before he injured another child.
I feel so sorry for Denise Bulger as every crime one of those monsters commits,is a step backward for Denise who can't move forward with her life knowing that those who killed her beautiful little boy are still alive. What a truly brave woman.

A bit more re-training is needed by some psychiatrists who fail to spot certain signs. There has always been the " good behaviour " card being played when releasing prisoners,even those who've committed ugly crimes and the huge mistakes made by freeing them only to re-offend.

Dale Cregan,another monster who's been housed in Ashworth is now being transferred to a prison after it's taken 2 years at least to realise that the man is insane. He'll never change.

The 15 year old who murdered her half sister of 7 years of age is only going to serve 4 years ? Mark my words the same one will inflict her jealous evil ways onto someone else,when free.   

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2017, 06:17:PM »




Ralph Bulger is all for removing the anonymity and hidden whereabouts of the likes of Venables,which I'm in favour of for the sake of other parents. So what, if he got bumped-off,it's only what he deserves and I doubt his death this way would stir up any anger.
Not for the first time,Venables had been found with child porn again,so the urge for a life of crime is there and would be only a matter of time before he injured another child.
I feel so sorry for Denise Bulger as every crime one of those monsters commits,is a step backward for Denise who can't move forward with her life knowing that those who killed her beautiful little boy are still alive. What a truly brave woman.

A bit more re-training is needed by some psychiatrists who fail to spot certain signs. There has always been the " good behaviour " card being played when releasing prisoners,even those who've committed ugly crimes and the huge mistakes made by freeing them only to re-offend.

Dale Cregan,another monster who's been housed in Ashworth is now being transferred to a prison after it's taken 2 years at least to realise that the man is insane. He'll never change.

The 15 year old who murdered her half sister of 7 years of age is only going to serve 4 years ? Mark my words the same one will inflict her jealous evil ways onto someone else,when free.
The problem is that the penal system has to incorporate a degree of rehabilitation as well as punishment, and I think this is made very much harder when names of the perpetrators are splashed all over the newspapers with the lurid details of the crimes.  If the psychiatrists are in any doubt these people should be detained indefinitely but I would have thought if they expressed a sustained wish say after a 10 year period to want to start again the age at which they committed the crime along with the current state of their mental health should be taken into consideration.

Offline maggie

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2017, 09:13:AM »
The problem is that the penal system has to incorporate a degree of rehabilitation as well as punishment, and I think this is made very much harder when names of the perpetrators are splashed all over the newspapers with the lurid details of the crimes.  If the psychiatrists are in any doubt these people should be detained indefinitely but I would have thought if they expressed a sustained wish say after a 10 year period to want to start again the age at which they committed the crime along with the current state of their mental health should be taken into consideration.
Agreed Steve , mental health should always be taken into consideration and treated. The prisons are full of offenders with real mental health problems, many have been abused themselves as children.

Offline Jane

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2017, 06:39:PM »





Steve,he'd proved to be what he was at the age of 10. Nobody seems to understand nor grasp how evil manifests itself in future years. Too many do-gooders busy wailing " he's only a child himself " with no mention about him having been an evil one. Commit such a heinous crime at 10 and there's nothing down for that person except a continued life of crime.

So you don't agree that the words/deeds/behaviours of a child's parents reflect or impact in any way on the child's development, emotionally and mentally?

Offline lookout

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2017, 07:21:PM »
So you don't agree that the words/deeds/behaviours of a child's parents reflect or impact in any way on the child's development, emotionally and mentally?






Of course I do.I've explained this in as many words if you care to read my post on child killers. Why do you keep saying things like this ?
The source of any mental health issues should be sorted or removed.

An unstable background is a recipe for disaster in a child's life as they'll carry that stigma for the rest of their lives in some way.

 

Offline Jane

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2017, 07:32:PM »





Of course I do.I've explained this in as many words if you care to read my post on child killers. Why do you keep saying things like this ?
The source of any mental health issues should be sorted or removed.

An unstable background is a recipe for disaster in a child's life as they'll carry that stigma for the rest of their lives in some way.

I think you'll find they may carry MUCH more than "stigma" -although it's interesting that you put this before possible irreparable mental and psychological damage- until/unless it can be sorted out. The risk is ever present that they'll go on to have and create problems in varying degrees of seriousness, for themselves and others, all through their lives.

Offline lookout

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2017, 07:40:PM »
I think you'll find they may carry MUCH more than "stigma" -although it's interesting that you put this before possible irreparable mental and psychological damage- until/unless it can be sorted out. The risk is ever present that they'll go on to have and create problems in varying degrees of seriousness, for themselves and others, all through their lives.






They will indeed and they do !! A huge chip on their shoulder !

Offline Jane

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2017, 07:50:PM »





They will indeed and they do !! A huge chip on their shoulder !

 Created by lack of self worth, anger, pain, jealousy, resentment, probably with no idea why. Justified, wouldn't you agree?

Offline lookout

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Re: Jon Venables Back In Prison
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2017, 08:05:PM »
Created by lack of self worth, anger, pain, jealousy, resentment, probably with no idea why. Justified, wouldn't you agree?






Most definitely.