Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on January 24, 2016, 09:10:AM
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There is a lot of information in Julie's WS, which would not have been reported in the newspapers.
The reports in the media would have been the following day. The police would just say it was murder/suicide and not divulge anything further. The media would then just concentrate on Sheila's life and how crazy she was. Before moving onto their next big story the following day.
Unlike Bamber, I don't believe Julie would be avidly reading all the newspaper reports anyway.
Here are some of the things in Julie's WS:
There was a valuble pidgeon clock, valuable china and silver at WHF.
The outside doors were locked every night.
There was a downstairs window which latched shut when exiting.
There was a kitchen fight during the massacre.
Neville received seven shots.
The twins were shot in their sleep.
Sheila had a bible by her chest.
There was going to be a phone call from WHF to Bamber's cottage from MM.
There was a phone at WHF which had a last number redial record.
Bamber had started conversations at supper about fostering.
Sheila was shot last.
June was shot in her bed.
Everyone was asleep. Except Neville.
Sheila was shot under the chin.
The twins were shot first.
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Who said it came all from the papers ?
Its obvious from reading yet another list where most of the info came from. Its a combination of sources
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There is no reason the relatives would tell her all of the above. She wasn't even related to the family and there was no reason to.
I would be surprised if the police suddenly started telling Bamber and the relatives all this, straight after the massacre. It is much too much information for them to take in straight away, after a shocking massacre. It's doubtful Bamber or the relatives would ask.
Julie spent most of her month with Bamber away from WHF, travelling around the country and to Amsterdam.
Either Bamber told her, which is what Julie claims. Or the police gave her this information when helping her create her false WS, one month later.
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Two other interesting points -
Bamber told Julie she would be an accessory to murder if she went to the police.
Julie was afraid of what MM would do if she went to the police. Which is what Caroline said in my MM proxy thread.
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There is no reason the relatives would tell her all of the above. She wasn't even related to the family and there was no reason to.
I would be surprised if the police suddenly started telling Bamber and the relatives all this, straight after the massacre. It is much too much information for them to take in straight away, after a shocking massacre. It's doubtful Bamber or the relatives would ask.
Julie spent most of her month with Bamber away from WHF, travelling around the country and to Amsterdam.
Either Bamber told her, which is what Julie claims. Or the police gave her this information when helping her create her false WS, one month later.
if you really want to get at least a eye witness view of what was happening after the murders by someone who was there then I suggest you read Colins book. And there was lots in the papers - some false information included .
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If Bamber was going to admit involvement, via MM, it is not surprising he would divulge a few other bits of information to her. She would have also naturally asked questions.
Some of the information was before the massacre. But surprising Julie knew about the valuables in WHF. Or that the insurance was low, or that the sleeping pills didn't work. Not the sort of things boyfriends usually discuss with their girlfriends about.
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Another interesting thing in Julies WS, is that Bamber said Sheila had 'been on shooting parties but had never handled a gun'.
This must have been what Bamber meant when testifying that Sheila had 'limited experience with guns'.
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Limited experience doesn't mean a thing when it comes to using one in anger which is what Sheila did.
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Give a 7 year old a rifle---------he'd know how to use it !
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Limited experience doesn't mean a thing when it comes to using one in anger which is what Sheila did.
Being psychotic doesn't necessarily mean being angry. I think you need to have it clear in your own mind whether you think she did it in a fit of rage -in which case it was calculated- OR whether you think she was psychotic -in which case she probably wouldn't have been aware of who or what she was shooting at.
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Being psychotic doesn't necessarily mean being angry. I think you need to have it clear in your own mind whether you think she did it in a fit of rage -in which case it was calculated- OR whether you think she was psychotic -in which case she probably wouldn't have been aware of who or what she was shooting at.
So being in a " psychotic " state,Sheila would have calmly ambled along ? The very fact that she had hold of a firearm was an intention to do damage in some way or she wouldn't have done it. We'd all like to think that she'd been in a psychotic state,but anger also plays a part in a state of psychosis where the patient hasn't been medicated sufficiently or they wouldn't display these outbursts.
Anger does take over as in Sheila's case she'd have been mulling over her life in general and looking for the cause which had been at WHF.
What I'd be wanting to see ( written doc. ) is whether she ever spoke of suicide because those with a depressive or even a psychotic tendency don't always kill themselves after killing others.
Something that JM had said to Jeremy reflects what Sheila was thinking about her boys and that was " if I can't have you nobody else can " or words to that effect when JM put a pillow over JB's face,except that Sheila shot her children.
By all accounts,it's been said many times that Sheila appeared normal that day,though quiet that evening when she'd said very little to her aunt on the phone. Normal ? Yes or no ?
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For all any of us know Sheila could have been having withdrawal symptoms if she hadn't got a supply of cannabis. Maybe June had disallowed it.
It's written up somewhere that she'd been smoking heavily during the past year.That being the case along with her lack of medication would have affected her far worse than anyone could have imagined,as effects of missing or refusing prescribed medication can bring about symptoms which are worse than what you had at the start of the initial diagnosis.
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So being in a " psychotic " state,Sheila would have calmly ambled along ? The very fact that she had hold of a firearm was an intention to do damage in some way or she wouldn't have done it. We'd all like to think that she'd been in a psychotic state,but anger also plays a part in a state of psychosis where the patient hasn't been medicated sufficiently or they wouldn't display these outbursts.
Anger does take over as in Sheila's case she'd have been mulling over her life in general and looking for the cause which had been at WHF.
What I'd be wanting to see ( written doc. ) is whether she ever spoke of suicide because those with a depressive or even a psychotic tendency don't always kill themselves after killing others.
Something that JM had said to Jeremy reflects what Sheila was thinking about her boys and that was " if I can't have you nobody else can " or words to that effect when JM put a pillow over JB's face,except that Sheila shot her children.
By all accounts,it's been said many times that Sheila appeared normal that day,though quiet that evening when she'd said very little to her aunt on the phone. Normal ? Yes or no ?
And yet from everything else that is said of her during her last fortnight, she was anything BUT normal.
The sweet lady who managed to not only smash my ex ma in law's watch but also claw her (false) eye had no recall -the following day- of what she'd done and greeted MIL with her usual hug.
It may be that you are the only one who says that she wasn't sufficiently medicated. If this was the accepted safe dose for all OUT patients there is no reason to believe it was wrong. She obviously wasn't so ill that she needed to be sectioned.
It isn't a given that depressed automatically equates with suicide. If someone doesn't have the emotional energy to keep themselves and their clothes clean, or even get out of bed, they certainly won't have the energy to kill themselves, let alone four other people first.
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For all any of us know Sheila could have been having withdrawal symptoms if she hadn't got a supply of cannabis. Maybe June had disallowed it.
It's written up somewhere that she'd been smoking heavily during the past year.That being the case along with her lack of medication would have affected her far worse than anyone could have imagined,as effects of missing or refusing prescribed medication can bring about symptoms which are worse than what you had at the start of the initial diagnosis.
"It's been written somewhere"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That really is nothing more than clutching at straws. She wasn't "lacking in medication" because it was delivered by injection. The pills she wasn't taking were to kill the side effects of the injected meds which MAY have been reduced anyway because of the reduced dose.
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"It's been written somewhere"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That really is nothing more than clutching at straws. She wasn't "lacking in medication" because it was delivered by injection. The pills she wasn't taking were to kill the side effects of the injected meds which MAY have been reduced anyway because of the reduced dose.
Her next injection had only been a week away and she'd had felt the full force of not having taken the other meds to counteract the side effects so her state would have been unquestionably unstable.
Unstable enough for her to have " gained partial control " of her actions to which were intended instead of being in the zombied state that she obviously hated,but was obviously the idea in which the medication had been designed for.
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Limited experience doesn't mean a thing when it comes to using one in anger which is what Sheila did.
Well she had to chamber and reload. Twice.
Sheila seemed to have a spilt personality during the massacre. Being crazy enough to kill and brutally beat everyone. However at the same time, composed enough to chamber, reload, read the bible, burn Neville's back & shower.
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Her next injection had only been a week away and she'd had felt the full force of not having taken the other meds to counteract the side effects so her state would have been unquestionably unstable.
Unstable enough for her to have " gained partial control " of her actions to which were intended instead of being in the zombied state that she obviously hated,but was obviously the idea in which the medication had been designed for.
I imagine that there was a timed "safety blanket" incorporated into those injections. By the very nature of the illness it would have been inexpedient for it to be otherwise. She probably wouldn't have been "uncovered" unless she'd gone WELL over time.
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I imagine that there was a timed "safety blanket" incorporated into those injections. By the very nature of the illness it would have been inexpedient for it to be otherwise. She probably wouldn't have been "uncovered" unless she'd gone WELL over time.
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Jane you can discuss Sheila's medication forever but nobody on this forum could even guess if her medication was right or wrong
Even today there will be people committing suicide and an inquest will question if the deceased person had the right medication
It's not a black or white question or answer but I have read enough to see what a sad state Sheila was in and backed up by Colin's reaction on learning about her death
That young girl had nobody to turn to or even show her unconditional love
She just couldn't cope.
It's just a shame that after her death the relatives all of a sudden took an interest in the affairs at WHF
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Julie mentioning that MM was going to phone Bamber, and use a memory phone, highlights that he planned to create the siege situation with the police. Which was the best idea.
People have claimed he should have blamed it on a random burglar of psychopath. Or let someone else find the dead bodies in the morning, with the gun on Sheila. While others have said he only telephoned the police on the spur of the moment to explain Neville being in the kitchen.
The memory phone was not available, but Bamber had to carry out the massacre anyway.
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Julie mentioning that MM was going to phone Bamber, and use a memory phone, highlights that he planned to create the siege situation with the police. Which was the best idea.
People have claimed he should have blamed it on a random burglar of psychopath. Or let someone else find the dead bodies in the morning, with the gun on Sheila. While others have said he only telephoned the police on the spur of the moment to explain Neville being in the kitchen.
The memory phone was not available, but Bamber had to carry out the massacre anyway.
How would Julie even know they had a 'memory phone' unless she was told by Jeremy?
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I imagine that there was a timed "safety blanket" incorporated into those injections. By the very nature of the illness it would have been inexpedient for it to be otherwise. She probably wouldn't have been "uncovered" unless she'd gone WELL over time.
It's strength had been drastically and suddenly reduced instead of it having been a gradual process because of it being such a powerful drug,. which wouldn't have boded well IF she'd been the paranoid schizophrenic that she was supposed to have been.
To make a drastic reduction in any prescribed medication is not advised.
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How would Julie even know they had a 'memory phone' unless she was told by Jeremy?
Bamber is innocent. So it must have been the police, when they created the false WS with her.
It is strange that the police created Julie's WS and included lots of things Julie wouldn't have read in the newspapers (in the thread post), but for some bizarre reason introduced MM.
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Any condition in which prescribed medication wasn't taken in its entirety WILL return with a vengeance.
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It's strength had been drastically and suddenly reduced instead of it having been a gradual process because of it being such a powerful drug,. which wouldn't have boded well IF she'd been the paranoid schizophrenic that she was supposed to have been.
To make a drastic reduction in any prescribed medication is not advised.
Because the dose had previously been abnormally high, all things being equal, she'd have felt better. She probably DID feel somewhat better because she appeared not to feel the need to take those drugs prescribed as a counter balance to the high dose of Haloperidol. Unfortunately, it's likely that depression had become part of the mix.
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Because the dose had previously been abnormally high, all things being equal, she'd have felt better. She probably DID feel somewhat better because she appeared not to feel the need to take those drugs prescribed as a counter balance to the high dose of Haloperidol. Unfortunately, it's likely that depression had become part of the mix.
The reason for the strength of the initial dose is something that I'm eager to find out about and until we know the full extent and the reason why the dose was so high, I for one will remain wondering just how drastic her illness was. Sheila's medical records should hold the information leading up to the last months of her life.
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Well she had to chamber and reload. Twice.
Sheila seemed to have a spilt personality during the massacre. Being crazy enough to kill and brutally beat everyone. However at the same time, composed enough to chamber, reload, read the bible, burn Neville's back & shower.
So did Jeremy then .
Because the shower was not in the normal position so someone used it.
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Any condition in which prescribed medication wasn't taken in its entirety WILL return with a vengeance.
Not if it was taken as a counter balance for something which no longer existed. What she wasn't taking wasn't her primary medication.
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Not if it was taken as a counter balance for something which no longer existed. What she wasn't taking wasn't her primary medication.
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-does-a-drugs-half-life-mean.htm
As far as I can see the half life of Haloperidol Decanoate !00 mg intra muscular injection is 3 weeks and this is probably what she was prescribed but as explained above it depends on the physical age, metabolic rate etc. of the patient so it's very difficult to establish how much Haloperidol she had left in her system at the time of the murders and if this would in fact have affected her psychosis.
It does seem very remiss that she was not being monitored more closely after the change as it seems everybody reacts differently and should be monitored for the first few months. Seems there isn't a conclusive answer.
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http://www.wisegeek.org/what-does-a-drugs-half-life-mean.htm
As far as I can see the half life of Haloperidol Decanoate !00 mg intra muscular injection is 3 weeks and this is probably what she was prescribed but as explained above it depends on the physical age, metabolic rate etc. of the patient so it's very difficult to establish how much Haloperidol she had left in her system at the time of the murders and if this would in fact have affected her psychosis.
It does seem very remiss that she was not being monitored more closely after the change as it seems everybody reacts differently and should be monitored for the first few months. Seems there isn't a conclusive answer.
This has been my point from the outset. I think mistakes were made. She left St Andrews sooner than was thought appropriate after which it all seemed to fall apart. The promised visits by psych nurses didn't happen so she was unable to discuss her meds. The locum reduced them by more than was instructed but NOT, however, below an acceptable level. The few minutes she would have spent with her doctor on the two occasions she visited seems far too little for a patient recently having discharged herself from a psych hospital.