Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on September 06, 2014, 08:07:AM
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Professor Macdonnell said June was shot with her head on the pillow.
Not that blood dripped onto the pillow, but that June was lying down when shot. With her head on the pillow.
The most plausible explanation for this is that June was asleep when shot. If awake prior to the shootings, she would be out of bed, or at least sitting up.
It is not realistic that June would not wake up herself, or be woken up by Neville, if Sheila had a rifle and was acting in a crazy way.
The situation was so serious that Neville had rang Jeremy and the police. Before doing this he would have attempted to get help from the other adult at WHF -June. Or he would have woken June to warn her of the serious situation.
Another reason Neville would wake June would be to get her to ring Jeremy and the police. While Neville monitors Sheila.
Another poster recently said Sheila was 'marching around WHF with the rifle' while Neville spent several minutes ringing Jeremy and the police downstairs. This is not plausible as Neville was leaving the sleeping twins and June at the mercy of a crazy Sheila, holding a fully loaded rifle. Neville would have woken June prior to making his calls, if June was (surprisingly) asleep.
The most plausible explanation for June being shot with her head on the pillow, is that she was asleep and did not hear or see her shooter beforehand. This will be the case if Jeremy had quietly got into WHF and crept upstairs.
By coincidence, Neville also received his first four shots just a few feet from June, in and around the same bed. Again suggesting he was in bed when the shooter entered the bedroom.
Do other people believe that June being shot with her head on the pillow shows certain guilt ?
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Although Neville received his first rifle shots a few feet from June, it was of course not possible that he was in bed when Sheila started shooting. After all he had gone downstairs to ring Jeremy and the police. Hadn't he ?
Bit strange that with Neville and Sheila awake & out of bed in the main bedroom, prior to 11 bullets being fired, Neville right next to June, that June was still sleeping with her head on the pillow.
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Why should/must it be " certain guilt ?".
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Why should/must it be " certain guilt ?".
Read the thread post. It is ridiculous that June would sleep through the build up to the shooting, if it was Sheila.
Jeremy's supporters are always claiming Sheila would have woken if Jeremy was creeping around with a silencer. So why not June if Sheila was going crazy inside WHF ?
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Read the thread post. It is ridiculous that June would sleep through the build up to the shooting, if it was Sheila.
Jeremy's supporters are always claiming Sheila would have woken if Jeremy was creeping around with a silencer. So why not June if Sheila was going crazy inside WHF ?
Now how is it that you knew that June was asleep ? Were you there ?? You must have been or you'd have read about June having been a bad sleeper,actually scared to close her eyes sometimes because of the nightmares she'd suffered.
I'd say that she'd have lightly closed her eyes,but not necessarily gone into any sort of a deep sleep because she'd have had a LOT on her mind that night,besides the fact that with the twins being there she'd have been sleeping lightly in case they woke up in the night.
Have you no human instincts at all ?
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Now how is it that you knew that June was asleep ? Were you there ?? You must have been or you'd have read about June having been a bad sleeper,actually scared to close her eyes sometimes because of the nightmares she'd suffered.
I'd say that she'd have lightly closed her eyes,but not necessarily gone into any sort of a deep sleep because she'd have had a LOT on her mind that night,besides the fact that with the twins being there she'd have been sleeping lightly in case they woke up in the night.
Have you no human instincts at all ?
Do you think June was asleep when shot ?
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Read the thread post. It is ridiculous that June would sleep through the build up to the shooting, if it was Sheila.
Jeremy's supporters are always claiming Sheila would have woken if Jeremy was creeping around with a silencer. So why not June if Sheila was going crazy inside WHF ?
wouldent that aply to both sheila and jeremy though.
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wouldent that aply to both sheila and jeremy though.
It is much more likely that June would not wake if Jeremy had quietly got into WHF & crept upstairs.
But not realistic to expect June to stay sleeping while Sheila was going 'crazy' over a long period. See thread post.
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Do you think June was asleep when shot ?
No,,June would have been wide awake.
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No,,June would have been wide awake.
Why was she shot with her head on the pillow ?
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Why was she shot with her head on the pillow ?
Stop asking stupid questions !
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Stop asking stupid questions !
It may have been a 'stupid' question the jury asked each other.
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Adam June was lying down.
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Adam June was lying down.
Asleep ?
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Asleep ?
In prayer?
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If in prayer,then it's her blood on the bible.
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In prayer ?
She really was a religious maniac then. As Jeremy called her. Although AE said Jeremy painted an unfair picture of June to the police.
Wouldn't she be sitting up or kneeling when praying ?
Would she continue praying after Sheila started shooting Neville or Sheila approached June with a rifle ?
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wouldent that aply to both sheila and jeremy though.
I think Adam means that the scene seems to indicate that there was an element of surprise involved. Had Sheila been raging around the house with a gun, June wouldn't be just sleeping through it. Although I'm not sure if she used sleeping pills or not? June was reported to be a light sleeper and I think I did read that she had used sleeping pills but not sure that she had that night and I guess if she had, they would have been mentioned in the autopsy report?
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All you have to do is study where on the body the bullets went,to decide if she was sitting,kneeling or standing,or lying down.
When June received the initial shots while in her bed,she then got out of bed and received another hail of bullets.
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I think Adam means that the scene seems to indicate that there was an element of surprise involved. Had Sheila been raging around the house with a gun, June wouldn't be just sleeping through it. Although I'm not sure if she used sleeping pills or not? June was reported to be a light sleeper and I think I did read that she had used sleeping pills but not sure that she had that night and I guess if she had, they would have been mentioned in the autopsy report?
Deep sleepers like me can sleep through a lot. However people have said June was a light sleeper.
If June was sleeping through the events, Neville would have woken her at some point.
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June had received 1 shot whilst in bed,then a further 6 shots after that including the one between her eyes,which must have been the final blow.
God bless the woman and her suffering.
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If in prayer,then it's her blood on the bible.
In prayer ?
She really was a religious maniac then. As Jeremy called her. Although AE said Jeremy painted an unfair picture of June to the police.
Wouldn't she be sitting up or kneeling when praying ?
Would she continue praying after Sheila started shooting Neville or Sheila approached June with a rifle ?
Lookout, it isn't necessary to have a bible in ones hand to assist prayer, and Adam, praying DOESN'T make a person a religious maniac.
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All you have to do is study where on the body the bullets went,to decide if she was sitting,kneeling or standing,or lying down.
When June received the initial shots while in her bed,she then got out of bed and received another hail of bullets.
The thread is about June getting her first shots with her head on the pillow.
Which is expected if it was Jeremy. But cannot be explained if it was Sheila.
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Deep sleepers like me can sleep through a lot. However people have said June was a light sleeper.
If June was sleeping through the events, Neville would have woken her at some point.
Well, you'd have certainly thought so!!
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The thread is about June getting her first shots with her head on the pillow.
Which is expected if it was Jeremy. But cannot be explained if it was Sheila.
I don't have to be told what the thread is about,so you needn't come that high and mighty attitude with me because there's no need for it whatsoever.
How would anyone know why June was shot with her head on the pillow,apart from the shooter ?
We know,according to Sheilas' psychiatrist,that Sheila had very UNHEALTHY thoughts about her mother,as Sheila had told all her friends and acquaintances that her mothers' mind was evil and needed cleansing. In Sheilas' mind,what better than a bullet to her head,for starters,which answers your question about June having received the 1 shot in bed.
Sheilas' dislike of June prompted her to find her real mother,so read into that and mark my words,there'll be further information eventually to prove that it was Sheila who killed her family ( partly )
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Adam can you explain that to me please.
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Adam can you explain that to me please.
Explain what ?
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Adam your post to lookout wherein it could apply if Jeremy was the shooter but not Sheila.
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why would nevile want to wake june up that would be a good way to get her shot as well if he couldent deal with it there wouldent be such she could do surely for her own safety he would want her to stay in bed.
if there was as has been claimed friction between June sheila surely waking june up would only make things worse.
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Adam your post to lookout wherein it could apply if Jeremy was the shooter but not Sheila.
Read the thread post about it being implausible that June slept through the commotion.
Jeremy's aim was to not wake June. Quietly getting into WHF and creeping upstairs would not be hard.
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I would at least have either tried to hide somewhere in the farmhouse as it was big enough,or else made my way somehow,to the front door,if I'd been either June or Neville,or even lifted a window up to shout out of it even though I probably wouldn't have been heard,but at least it would have shown that the tragedy wouldn't just have been contained in just one or two areas.
It appears that no attempt was made to protect the children,by the mother ? If Sheila had thrown herself upon the children,which any mother would have done,then Sheila would have had shots in her back,the risk anyone,including myself, would have taken to have saved the boys.
No attempt was made to open the front door,as it remained locked.
Sheila herself would have been free just to dial 999 as police would have picked up the address via the operator.
Nobody can be in two places at once,both upstairs,then downstairs-----------3 flights,so ample time to dial for help from any one of them.
I'm more than convinced that had it been Jeremy as the murderer,he'd have been shot somewhere,as there was a shotgun to hand and all it needed was to have aimed at his legs to brand him the murderer.
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i dont think shouting out the window would do any good there would be nobody to hear them.
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I realise that,nugs,but the presence of a disturbance of sorts would have led to better clues than what there were. Such as attempts made to escape,etc. Which there were none.
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It's been stated that Sheila was the last one to die ?
Given the pics of June and Neville in RM,if they'd all been shot at the same time,why was it that Sheila didn't also take on the appearance that she'd been dead the same time as they ? Why would there have been a couple of hours delay in killing her ?
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im not sure we can really say becouse theres no real time of death.
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It's been stated that Sheila was the last one to die ?
Given the pics of June and Neville in RM,if they'd all been shot at the same time,why was it that Sheila didn't also take on the appearance that she'd been dead the same time as they ? Why would there have been a couple of hours delay in killing her ?
There is nothing at all that suggests Sheila died hours later. There is nothign to suggest she died after police arrived. The defense has no ability to establish she died after police arrived on the scene thus made no such claim.
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Professor Macdonnell said June was shot with her head on the pillow.
Not that blood dripped onto the pillow, but that June was lying down when shot. With her head on the pillow.
The most plausible explanation for this is that June was asleep when shot. If awake prior to the shootings, she would be out of bed, or at least sitting up.
It is not realistic that June would not wake up herself, or be woken up by Neville, if Sheila had a rifle and was acting in a crazy way.
The situation was so serious that Neville had rang Jeremy and the police. Before doing this he would have attempted to get help from the other adult at WHF -June. Or he would have woken June to warn her of the serious situation.
Another reason Neville would wake June would be to get her to ring Jeremy and the police. While Neville monitors Sheila.
Another poster recently said Sheila was 'marching around WHF with the rifle' while Neville spent several minutes ringing Jeremy and the police downstairs. This is not plausible as Neville was leaving the sleeping twins and June at the mercy of a crazy Sheila, holding a fully loaded rifle. Neville would have woken June prior to making his calls, if June was (surprisingly) asleep.
The most plausible explanation for June being shot with her head on the pillow, is that she was asleep and did not hear or see her shooter beforehand. This will be the case if Jeremy had quietly got into WHF and crept upstairs.
By coincidence, Neville also received his first four shots just a few feet from June, in and around the same bed. Again suggesting he was in bed when the shooter entered the bedroom.
Do other people believe that June being shot with her head on the pillow shows certain guilt ?
It makes no real difference whether she was asleep at the time the initial shots were fired or awake yet still lying dowing. It is the fact she was shot while in bed that was significant.
You seem to spend a great deal of time harping on something that there is no way to know for sure- whether she was awake or not when the initial shots hit. I tend to think she woke up before she was shot because she managed to move around in bed and then out of bed pretty quick though she did not get very far. Again though it makes no real difference whether she was awake or not when the initial shots hit.
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It does make a difference if June was asleep or not.
June being asleep matches Jeremy quietly getting into WHF and creeping upstairs at 2.30am.
June being asleep would not match Sheila charging around WHF for a long period & Neville not being able to control her.
Anyway, my view is June was asleep when shot, which is why her head was on the pillow. She obviously woke afterwards for a short time.
There is no logical explanation for June's head being on the pillow when shot, if she was awake.
And I don't spend a great deal of time 'harping on about it'. I have created one thread, it is an important issue which again highlights Jeremy's guilt. Maybe Scipio can create a worthwhile thread for once instead of criticising others.
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It does make a difference if June was asleep or not.
Being asleep matches Jeremy quietly getting into WHF and creeping upstairs at 2.30am.
June being asleep would not match Sheila charging around WHF for a long period & Neville not being able to control her.
Anyway, my view is June was asleep when shot, which is why her head was on the pillow. She obviously woke afterwards for a short time. There is no logical explanation for June's head being on the pillow, if she was awake.
And I don't spend a great deal of time 'harping on about it'. I have created one thread, it is an important issue which again highlights Jeremy's guilt. Maybe Scipio can create a worthwhile thread for once instead of criticising others.
;D brave
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It does make a difference if June was asleep or not.
June being asleep matches Jeremy quietly getting into WHF and creeping upstairs at 2.30am.
June being asleep would not match Sheila charging around WHF for a long period & Neville not being able to control her.
Anyway, my view is June was asleep when shot, which is why her head was on the pillow. She obviously woke afterwards for a short time.
There is no logical explanation for June's head being on the pillow when shot, if she was awake.
And I don't spend a great deal of time 'harping on about it'. I have created one thread, it is an important issue which again highlights Jeremy's guilt. Maybe Scipio can create a worthwhile thread for once instead of criticising others.
Since you insist on me helping Jeremy supporters to an extent I will do so. How could she be awake and yet shot with her head on the pillow?
1) She was believed to be crouching in the fetal position as some of the shots came at her. It is suggested that is how her knee and arm were shot. She could have been tryig to hid in bed as she was being shot at instead of sitting up with her head exposed to the fire. Trying to hide in bed instead of getting up out of it would be a natural reaction for somein who is in bed when a gunman appears and starts shooting. It doesn't mean she was fast asleep.
2) Upon being shot in the chest while seated she could have fallen backwards so she was lying on her pillow and then shot in the head. Being shot with her head on the pillows doesn't mean she had to have been asleep.
3) she could have been awake and lying down when the gunman entered and too scared to move for fear of being shot but after the gunfire started no longer being scared because she was going to die if she didn't manage to get away so then tried to flee.
None of these possibilities are all that helpful to Jeremy. None of them preclude Jeremy from walking in and being the killer. Your insistence that she had to have been sleeping and thus the killer snuck in very silently without waking her is unsupported. That is merely a possibility it is not a fact established by her head being on the pillow as she was shot.
While people like to claim I am biased against Jeremy that is not true. I follow the evidence where it leads I don't make up evidence and when other make unsupportable claims I challenge them regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable to Jeremy.
The simple fact she was shot in bed is damaging to Jeremy there is no need to strain to pretend she was for sure asleep at the time the shots started.
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Since you insist on me helping Jeremy supporters to an extent I will do so. How could she be awake and yet shot with her head on the pillow?
1) She was believed to be crouching in the fetal position as some of the shots came at her. It is suggested that is how her knee and arm were shot. She could have been tryig to hid in bed as she was being shot at instead of sitting up with her head exposed to the fire. Trying to hide in bed instead of getting up out of it would be a natural reaction for somein who is in bed when a gunman appears and starts shooting. It doesn't mean she was fast asleep.
2) Upon being shot in the chest while seated she could have fallen backwards so she was lying on her pillow and then shot in the head. Being shot with her head on the pillows doesn't mean she had to have been asleep.
3) she could have been awake and lying down when the gunman entered and too scared to move for fear of being shot but after the gunfire started no longer being scared because she was going to die if she didn't manage to get away so then tried to flee.
None of these possibilities are all that helpful to Jeremy. None of them preclude Jeremy from walking in and being the killer. Your insistence that she had to have been sleeping and thus the killer snuck in very silently without waking her is unsupported. That is merely a possibility it is not a fact established by her head being on the pillow as she was shot.
While people like to claim I am biased against Jeremy that is not true. I follow the evidence where it leads I don't make up evidence and when other make unsupportable claims I challenge them regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable to Jeremy.
The simple fact she was shot in bed is damaging to Jeremy there is no need to strain to pretend she was for sure asleep at the time the shots started.
Because what you're describing are natural reactions to a terrifying situation I wouldn't have thought it needed saying, but I was guessing without Adam's very limited imagination which he so frequently demonstrates. He probably does more to persuade people of Jeremy's innocence than does Mike.
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Morning April I agree I was beginning to think Adam had changed his stance to innocence but thought I better not mention it ;D ;D ;D
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Since you insist on me helping Jeremy supporters to an extent I will do so. How could she be awake and yet shot with her head on the pillow?
1) She was believed to be crouching in the fetal position as some of the shots came at her. It is suggested that is how her knee and arm were shot. She could have been tryig to hid in bed as she was being shot at instead of sitting up with her head exposed to the fire. Trying to hide in bed instead of getting up out of it would be a natural reaction for somein who is in bed when a gunman appears and starts shooting. It doesn't mean she was fast asleep.
2) Upon being shot in the chest while seated she could have fallen backwards so she was lying on her pillow and then shot in the head. Being shot with her head on the pillows doesn't mean she had to have been asleep.
3) she could have been awake and lying down when the gunman entered and too scared to move for fear of being shot but after the gunfire started no longer being scared because she was going to die if she didn't manage to get away so then tried to flee.
None of these possibilities are all that helpful to Jeremy. None of them preclude Jeremy from walking in and being the killer. Your insistence that she had to have been sleeping and thus the killer snuck in very silently without waking her is unsupported. That is merely a possibility it is not a fact established by her head being on the pillow as she was shot.
While people like to claim I am biased against Jeremy that is not true. I follow the evidence where it leads I don't make up evidence and when other make unsupportable claims I challenge them regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable to Jeremy.
The simple fact she was shot in bed is damaging to Jeremy there is no need to strain to pretend she was for sure asleep at the time the shots started.
I don't really agree with any of that.
If awake June would not be hiding in bed, laying down or sitting up in bed. She would be out of bed, either supporting Neville, with the twins, or phoning the police while Neville monitors Sheila. It was her daughter, not a gang of violent armed robbers. This is common sense.
But feel free to create unlikely situations.
June being shot with her head on the pillow matches perfectly her being asleep at 2.30am. People often are asleep at this time. There is no reason she would hear Jeremy quietly entering a downstairs window in another part of WHF. Then creeping upstairs and heading to the main bedroom.
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I don't really agree with any of that.
If awake June would not be hiding in bed, laying down or sitting up in bed. She would be out of bed, either supporting Neville, with the twins, or phoning the police while Neville monitors Sheila. It was her daughter, not a gang of violent armed robbers. This is common sense.
But feel free to create unlikely situations.
June being shot with her head on the pillow matches perfectly her being asleep at 2.30am. People often are asleep at this time. There is no reason she would hear Jeremy quietly entering a downstairs window in another part of WHF. Then creeping upstairs.
How did I create an unlikely situation?
Jeremy walks in his mother is in bed and both Nevill and June wake up and see him. He has a gun pointed at her. She:
A) sits up and yells at him and is shot in the chest, falls back to the pillow and her head is shot against th epillow
B) she is scared so does not move and stays lying down, the gunfire starts and she crouches as the fire hits getting shot 4 times then decides to get up to try to run away because hiding in bed failed
What is unlikely about either of these?
What is unlikely is that Nevill would be awake but she would still be asleep since she was a lighter sleeper than he was. I believe they were both awake when he shot them but it makes no difference at all whether she was asleep when he started the shooting or not.
You ar einterested in refuting the notion that Sheial did it and suggest that if Sheila were running around with a gun she would have woken up and got out of bed. I agree she would have gotten out of bed not stayed there so her being shot in bed is indicative of Jeremy doing it not Sheila, It makes no difference whether she was asleep or not. The critical issue is she would not have stayed in bed had Sheila been causing trouble and Nevill would not have used the phone to call Jeremy while an armed Sheila was elsewhere potentially causing harm to June and the boys.
You are straining for absolutely nothing and that straining shows bias on your part.
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But feel free to create unlikely situations
It sounds as if you're giving Scipio permission to do exactly what you do.
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Good. We agree that June would not stay in bed if Sheila was the killer. However disagree that June being shot with her head on the pillow means she was almost certainly asleep when Jeremy shot her.
If June was shot while sitting up in bed by Jeremy, wouldn't she fall back against the wall, still in a sitting position ?
My view is that they were both asleep when Jeremy entered the bedroom. People usually are at 2.30am. There is no reason why Jeremy would have woken them when quietly entering a loose downstairs window & then creeping upstairs.
Jeremy opened fire at an asleep June with her head on the pillow, with the silencer attached. This would only take a few seconds & he believed he would be able to then shoot and kill an asleep Neville, who was next to June in bed. But Neville woke so the shots at Neville by the bed were not fatal. Jeremy overestimating the rifle power.
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Good. We agree that June would not stay in bed if Sheila was the killer. However disagree that June being shot with her head on the pillow means she was almost certainly asleep when Jeremy shot her.
If June was shot while sitting up in bed by Jeremy, wouldn't she fall back against the wall, still in a sitting position ?
My view is that they were both asleep when Jeremy entered the bedroom. People usually are at 2.30am. There is no reason why Jeremy would have woken them when quietly entering a loose downstairs window & then creeping upstairs.
Jeremy opened fire at an asleep June with her head on the pillow, with the silencer attached. This would only take a few seconds & he believed he would be able to then shoot and kill an asleep Neville, who was next to June in bed. But Neville woke so the shots at Neville by the bed were not fatal. Jeremy overestimating the rifle power.
If one is laying down and sits up it doesn't mean they move their whole body to sit against the headboard. Lay on the floor and then sit up do you have to move against a wall to do it? It is quite possible for her to have sat up and then fallen down upon being shot and then shot again while lying on the pillow. It is wqually possible to have been woken up and stayed lying down because she was scared. There is no way for her being shot in the head while lying down establishing she had to have been asleep at the time as opposed to awake.