Jeremy Bamber Forum
OTHER HIGH PROFILE CASES => Other cases => Topic started by: Caroline R on July 04, 2013, 10:09:PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23190447
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whoever made the decisn is takeing a big risk with there career.
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i suspect a underworld hit is in the making he will be located hopefully XXXXX and XXXXXX .
Edited to be on the safe side
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i suspect a underworld hit is in the making he will be located hopefully XXXX and XXXX .
Please don't tell me you are being serious. What kind of society do you wish we live in?! Do you think that personal and collective retribution should take priority over the judicial system?!
Edited the quote
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i suspect a underworld hit is in the making he will be located hopefully XXXXX and XXXXXX .
nobody did the last time he was out why would they do it now.
Edited the quote
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Please don't tell me you are being serious. What kind of society do you wish we live in?! Do you think that personal and collective retribution should take priority over the judicial system?!
Edited the quote
The kind of society we live in is simple, crime soaring out of control, murders almost daily, no deterrent, other than a jail term for murders what do we do ? 2013 and we still have prisons, are society has no right to exist anymore.
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I think many people will be annoyed because both of James' killers were jailed for a long length of time. yet, one has re-offended and ended up back in prison, so it has neither punished (otherwise he wouldn't want to return) or rehabilitated (otherwise he wouldn't have committed a crime again).
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Hello Joanne obviously rehabilitation has not worked for Venables as he would not have re-offended.I also think we must not forget the victims here the parents of Jamie who will live with the torment of what happened to their baby boy for the rest of their lives :(
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I think many people will be annoyed because both of James' killers were jailed for a long length of time. yet, one has re-offended and ended up back in prison, so it has neither punished (otherwise he wouldn't want to return) or rehabilitated (otherwise he wouldn't have committed a crime again).
Disagree 100% with what you have posted. Imprisonment is about both retribution and rehabilitation. Whether you agree or disagree with the decision of the parole board, Venables and Thompson were locked up and denied their liberty for a period of 8 years from 1993-2001. During this time they were both significantly rehabilitated and for all we know Robert Thompson may have been as fully rehabilitated as possible and will never commit a crime again.
With regards Venables whilst it is very upsetting / worrying that he was convicted of child pornography offences and there are RUMOURS of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, breach of parole conditions; to say that he has not been rehabilitated at all is simply not true.
I am certainly not defending him or his actions but given that when he was released in 2001 some people viewed him as the devil incarnate who was born evil and it was only a matter of time before he would kill again, the fact that he was at liberty for 9 years shows that to a certain degree he was successfully rehabilitated. I'm certainly not defending the crimes he did commit, but the fact (as far as is known) he has not personally abused or murdered again shows an element of rehabilitation.
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its not certan that he actully commited a crime he just had his licence revoked ive heard nothing of him actully being convicted of accused of.
i may have got this wrong but thats how i see it.
does anybody know if he was convicted or not.
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Hello Joanne obviously rehabilitation has not worked for Venables as he would not have re-offended.I also think we must not forget the victims here the parents of Jamie who will live with the torment of what happened to their baby boy for the rest of their lives :(
There are varying degrees of rehabilitation. It is obvious that he has not been 100% rehabilitated. However to say that rehabilitation has not worked at all for Venables is not true. Nobody on here knows the changes in him his rehabilitation has brought about.
If he has not been rehabilitated at all, why did he not murder again during the 9 years he was at liberty?
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well its worked a bit i mean he hasnt killed agian.
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its not certan that he actully commited a crime he just had his licence revoked ive heard nothing of him actully being convicted of accused of.
i may have got this wrong but thats how i see it.
does anybody know if he was convicted or not.
Yes, he pleaded guilty at court of downloading and distributing child pornography. He was sentenced to 2 years imprisonment.
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petey I don't know why he did not murder again in the 9 years he was free I don't know what satisfaction he got from beating an innocent little 2 year old boy to death and leaving him on the railway line like a piece of garbage. Maybe now time has moved on with computers etc he gets his thrills in other ways like child pornography and whatever else he may have got upto. Not for one moment am I saying what I think is correct I just try and get my head around a ten year old boy beating the child along with other things and ask myself how can that action of the brain be changed. I know crimes of passion is a one off but this was deliberately planned and they enticed the wee fella away from his Mother and he in all innocence went with them and would be so frightened and confused and my thoughts are always with Jamie's Mother as she will never recover from that for the rest of her days. It was such a senseless killing but Venables & Thompson must have gained some pleasure out of doing that. To this very day I for one find it very upsetting to think of what the wee boy went through.
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Yes, he pleaded guilty at court of downloading and distributing child pornography. He was sentenced to 2 years imprisonment.
oh yes so he was.
under those circumstances im not sure weather he should of been released.
if i was member of a parole board i certainly wouldn't want to take that risk.
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The kind of society we live in is simple, crime soaring out of control, murders almost daily, no deterrent, other than a jail term for murders what do we do ? 2013 and we still have prisons, are society has no right to exist anymore.
Well said Mertol. The whole country ( well those of us who love children ) were stunned at the sheer inhumane cruelty of the crime against this little boy. Police officers cried too. I,along with others at work at the time, including the wife of one of those officers,were also terribly upset.
Details of the cruelty are not printable,but I have them etched on my mind,as must the Bulgers themselves,,and I can fully understand why they don't want this monster released under any circumstances. It'll be too late when he strikes again.
You're right,,there is no deterrent,,that's why there are now murders on a daily basis.
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Hello lookout I look at the case of the horrific torture murder of this little two year old boy as a Mother of a son and probably petey looks at it with a legally trained mind and does not allow emotion to come into his thinking. What worries me is I think Venables was the leader and Thompson just followed. Venables now into pornography telling me something about how his mind works he obviously derived trememdous pleasure and satisfaction from what he did to little Jamie now he is getting the same satisfaction out of the child pornography so no amount of rehabilitation will change the way his mind is inclinded and I would be worried where is he going to stop. I am certainly not an "eye for an eye" person nor do I condone taking the law into your own hands but should Venables be released I have doubts but of course I could be wrong. Like you lookout I do not want to think too deeply about what they did to the little innocent child.
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Hello lookout I look at the case of the horrific torture murder of this little two year old boy as a Mother of a son and probably petey looks at it with a legally trained mind and does not allow emotion to come into his thinking. What worries me is I think Venables was the leader and Thompson just followed. Venables now into pornography telling me something about how his mind works he obviously derived trememdous pleasure and satisfaction from what he did to little Jamie now he is getting the same satisfaction out of the child pornography so no amount of rehabilitation will change the way his mind is inclinded and I would be worried where is he going to stop. I am certainly not an "eye for an eye" person nor do I condone taking the law into your own hands but should Venables be released I have doubts but of course I could be wrong. Like you lookout I do not want to think too deeply about what they did to the little innocent child.
Hi Susan,,,the trouble is that I know the details,,but would never ever tell a soul.This is why I felt so sick when I read peteys' post,,completely void of feeling.
I suggest he looks back at the gruelling information if he can lay his hands on personal/confidential material,,if so,,he might just feel something.
This monster will re-offend,,of that there's no doubt.The seed was already planted as a child himself,,and for him to change anytime now would be nothing short of a miracle. To my mind,,he'll be short-lived.
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Hi Susan,,,the trouble is that I know the details,,but would never ever tell a soul.This is why I felt so sick when I read peteys' post,,completely void of feeling.
I suggest he looks back at the gruelling information if he can lay his hands on personal/confidential material,,if so,,he might just feel something.
This monster will re-offend,,of that there's no doubt.The seed was already planted as a child himself,,and for him to change anytime now would be nothing short of a miracle. To my mind,,he'll be short-lived.
I am well aware of the specifics of what happened and read court transcripts and medical report references during my degree.
Do you find it more 'sickening' me expressing a justified legal opinion, or other posters expressing that they hope Venables is raped and murdered?!
Remember that jb is a convicted child murderer in the most callous manner. He may well be a miscarriage of justice, but people who do believe him guilty are entitled to feel the same level of revulsion if not more for him, than Venables.
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i think what you have to remember is that horrfic though it was tomasan and venabels were young children themselves.
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To free him will come with a high price in time , but dont worry he wont strike at rich toffs families or judges who think common people are dirt, he will strike again in his own time, however to protect people his identity must be known, as i said earlier he is a dead man walking now , no lessons will ever be learned our system is useless.
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i think what you have to remember is that horrfic though it was tomasan and venabels were young children themselves.
I agree nugs.
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Hello Maggie how are you this fine day. What age was Thompson and Venables I thought they were 10 year old but maybe I got that wrong.
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Have to agree 100% with you on this petey.
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Hello Maggie how are you this fine day. What age was Thompson and Venables I thought they were 10 year old but maybe I got that wrong.
You are right susie, they were 10.
Its boiling hot here at the moment. Sitting by the pool........ooops sorry ;D
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Maggie don't bother saying sorry boiling hot here too and we are sitting by the paddling pool and we have no flies ;D ;D ;D ;D We have snow on the mountains bet you don't ;D
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Hi nugnug do you think boys of 10 would not know the difference between right and wrong.
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Maggie don't bother saying sorry boiling hot here too and we are sitting by the paddling pool and we have no flies ;D ;D ;D ;D We have snow on the mountains bet you don't ;D
We dont have flies susie but its true niether do we have snow, we do occasionally have big fat cockeraches, they are not nice to know. ;D
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Hi nugnug do you think boys of 10 would not know the difference between right and wrong.
no not completly.
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nugnug I really don't know what to think about Thompson and Venables. Would they think it was OK to do what they did to wee Jamie. Now Venables is older and he is into child pornography he must still have that sadistic desire in him that he had when he was 10.
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im not sure weather venabels should be released again.
but i thought they were right to realises him the first time.
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nugnug I ask myself was the sentence long enough for taking the life of a two year old boy as I said earlier I am not an "eye for an eye person" but the only reason for killing him was just a game which gave them satisfaction and pleasure and I find this so difficult to comprehend unless they had mental problems.
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nugnug I really don't know what to think about Thompson and Venables. Would they think it was OK to do what they did to wee Jamie. Now Venables is older and he is into child pornography he must still have that sadistic desire in him that he had when he was 10.
Susan, I think they would have known the difference between right and wrong but would have been UNable to turn the situation around to how they might feel if their actions were inflicted on them.
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Hello april do you think that these two boys Venables and Thompson had a low mentality. The cruelty of their crime did not upset them and could they do this again I ask myself.
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I am well aware of the specifics of what happened and read court transcripts and medical report references during my degree.
Do you find it more 'sickening' me expressing a justified legal opinion, or other posters expressing that they hope Venables is raped and murdered?!
Remember that jb is a convicted child murderer in the most callous manner. He may well be a miscarriage of justice, but people who do believe him guilty are entitled to feel the same level of revulsion if not more for him, than Venables.
Hi Petey,
I agree. People are always emotive when children are involved (and rightly so), however, Thompson and Venables were also children when they committed the offence. This isn't an excuse, simply a fact and whatever their reason, it can't be measured against that of an adult such as Mark Bridger. It was horrible, sad and unforgivable but they were 10 years of age!! Obviously they knew it was wrong but they didn't know the magnitude of their actions and perhaps given their backgrounds, they didn't have the emotional maturity to understand the consequences for both poor James and those that loved him.
Reading the background of the case, it's interesting that at the time, Thompson was seen as the instigator because he seemed less emotional (although they both blamed each other), however, only Venables (as far as we know), has reoffended. I don't know what kind of support systems were put in place to monitor them on release and perhaps there was a failing there. People will complain that tax payers money shouldn't be spent of them - but left to their own devices, they would have no chance.
I wouldn't be comfortable with the idea of locking them up for life, however, I think they were released too quickly and the outside support network obviously failed as far as Venables is concerned.
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My youngest is ten years old and he would probably rather die himself than hurt a two year old bubby. I guess it comes down to how you are brought up? I understand that at least one of the lads had an abusive and neglected childhood. Its a sad fact that many of those who are abused go on to become abusers themselves.
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Hi tyler I can never get my head around why these two boys of 10 years of age could do this and not know it was evil. Mary Bell was a different case she did have mental problems but don't think these two had. They killed for sheer pleasure and would enjoy every minute even when the little guy was crying calling for his Mum they did not stop. Wonder if they sleep at night or do they think back to what they did.
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My youngest is ten years old and he would probably rather die himself than hurt a two year old bubby. I guess it comes down to how you are brought up? I understand that at least one of the lads had an abusive and neglected childhood. Its a sad fact that many of those who are abused go on to become abusers themselves.
Hello april do you think that these two boys Venables and Thompson had a low mentality. The cruelty of their crime did not upset them and could they do this again I ask myself.
Susan/Tyler, I think your posts are linked. Susan, I know little of the boys' intellectual maturity but I think I recall reading that one was mush brighter than the other. Emotionally, I feel that their maturity was low almost to the point of non existance as was their ability to empathize. Tyler, you are totally correct, without guidance/diversion patterns repeat.
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april excellent post explains what I was trying to say in my long winded way. ;D ;D ;D Just feel they were not just "normal" 10 year olds upto pranks.
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Hi tyler I can never get my head around why these two boys of 10 years of age could do this and not know it was evil. Mary Bell was a different case she did have mental problems but don't think these two had. They killed for sheer pleasure and would enjoy every minute even when the little guy was crying calling for his Mum they did not stop. Wonder if they sleep at night or do they think back to what they did.
Susan, I believe that it's imperative that they remember what they did but it's also important that they can sleep at night. For them to have any chance of turning their lives around they have to own what they did, accept the horror and move past it. IMO, it's a huge ask and maybe it's not something that they're BOTH capable of doing.
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april don't think Venables is doing that if he is into child pornography. One of the boys came from an abusive background which one anyone know. Think Thompson has turned his life around from what I have read.
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april don't think Venables is doing that if he is into child pornography. One of the boys came from an abusive background which one anyone know. Think Thompson has turned his life around from what I have read.
Susan, one can only hope. Like you, I don't have a brain like Petey's which deals with legalities. Of course we need legal process but we can't assume that because legalities have been completed it's the end of the story. We can no more give Thompson and Venables the childhoods they didn't have, than we can give Jamie back to his parents, but somehow they both have to live in the world. We couldn't tranfer them from Young Offenders to adults prison when they were no longer children so I suppose it was right to release them. My greatest hope is that they never set eyes on each other again.
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april just been reading about Thompson and Venables both came from bad homes especially Thompson he had an horrendous childhood I always thought Venables was the lead but think I got that wrong. Venables stayed with his Father from time to time who had plenty of video's of a pornographic nature and violence so this is where he got it from. Very sad all round.Thompson seems to have come out the best.
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I understand Thompson has married and has kids , Venables looks nasty , unfortunatly his parents are no role models , what is needed is limits on children born bad families breed to hell in time when the worlds food runs out millions will simply die there must never be a repeat ever of these crimes.
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Ironically Judge Judy spoke about children and mentioned people need licences for other things-guns, cars, TV's, dogs, marriages yet not children.
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I understand Thompson has married and has kids , Venables looks nasty , unfortunatly his parents are no role models , what is needed is limits on children born bad families breed to hell in time when the worlds food runs out millions will simply die there must never be a repeat ever of these crimes.
WOW!!!! Mertol that's a BIGGY!!!! I'm really not certain how you'd go about doing that, especially as it's often people who appear to be pillers of respectability who do unspeakable things to their children in private and those children learn to do certain things in secret too.
You speak of "bad families." At what stage do you recommend that they be compulsorally steralized. I hear your need to prevent further atrocities from happening but I don't think ANY political party would be willing to take up that particlar method..............and Hitler is dead.
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WOW!!!! Mertol that's a BIGGY!!!! I'm really not certain how you'd go about doing that, especially as it's often people who appear to be pillers of respectability who do unspeakable things to their children in private and those children learn to do certain things in secret too.
You speak of "bad families." At what stage do you recommend that they be compulsorally steralized. I hear your need to prevent further atrocities from happening but I don't think ANY political party would be willing to take up that particlar method..............and Hitler is dead.
Not that I would EVER advocate what has been suggested but how do you identify a 'bad family'? Sometimes 'bad' gets confused with 'poor'.
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Crimes That Shook Britain (James Bulger) - is on Sky (CI) now.
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Crimes That Shook Britain (James Bulger) - is on Sky (CI) now.
As I don't have Sky, I'm watching Kate Humble shepherding in Australia.
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Not that I would EVER advocate what has been suggested but how do you identify a 'bad family'? Sometimes 'bad' gets confused with 'poor'.
A very pertinent point, Caroline.
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As I don't have Sky, I'm watching Kate Humble shepherding in Australia.
Someone has to do it ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Someone has to do it ;D ;D ;D ;D
A ranch the size of Kent. Artificially inseminated sheep. Gives whole new meaning to mass production.
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A ranch the size of Kent. Artificially inseminated sheep. Gives whole new meaning to mass production.
I'm surrounded by sheep, you can't walk across a field without bringing their DNA home with you!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I understand Thompson has married and has kids , Venables looks nasty , unfortunatly his parents are no role models , what is needed is limits on children born bad families breed to hell in time when the worlds food runs out millions will simply die there must never be a repeat ever of these crimes.
Hi Mertol, I believe Robert Thompson came from a really dreadful background whereas Jon Venables came from a broken home which was poor but both his parents were caring about him. Thompson was seen as the ringleader I have read. Maybe Venables believes he needs punishing and thats why he tells who he is.....we dont know the psychology of either of these boys and neither do the newspapers imo.
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Thompson's social worker says he doesn't appear to show any empathy or remorse for his crime. But it is also said that both suffered with post traumatic stress disorder,ie nightmares and flashbacks.
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Thompson's social worker says he doesn't appear to show any empathy or remorse for his crime. But it is also said that both suffered with post traumatic stress disorder,ie nightmares and flashbacks.
Tyler,,Venables' stress,nightmares,whatever,would have been for effect,,as he'd have showed no emotion doing what he did.
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Similar minds?
http://travel.aol.co.uk/2013/07/09/baby-shetland-pony-drowned-river-weaver-yobs/?ncid=webmail9
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Oh God,Caroline.Heartbreaking. :'( Born evil--psychopaths in the making.
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Venables was a fantasist who lived his life as a child using those fantasies to explain away the hurt he and his disabled siblings endured, he used the abuse he received at the hands of those children at school and those of his neighborhood to somehow come to terms with it. This of course would have been hard enough for adults but for a child it was impossible to comes to terms with without some lasting mental harm. The question we have to ask now is if it is possible for him not be be rehabilitated(he would have to have known that he had done wrong) but has his mental state been repaired?
The fact that he was re interred for child pornography typifies his mental state, wanting to hurt children or taking some enjoyment of children being abused goes back to that very time when he wanted to fight back against those peers who were abusing him at that stage. I also feel that its typically his MO to do this from a distance so to speak i.e from a computer as opposed to actually joining in, which would be of course more serious. It might also explain why he has been released as he most probably would not take part in the actual abuse so therefore cannot be considered a risk to others, however his ability to manipulate certain others as in Thompson is still very much a threat and i would hope that although released he would be monitored to his dying day as to the company he keeps and regular mental check ups.
I am a father of two myself and I understand the emotional impact that this release has on the general public but I agree wholeheartedly with petey that we have to see beyond those emotions and do the right thing for the individual and to simply dismiss that on the basis of the crime committed is archaic. They were both released early because of very intense studies into their ability to cope with the judicial system and their punishments that found that it was actually harmful to them tokeep them incarcerated.
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Caroline stated..
Thompson was seen as the instigator because he seemed less emotional (although they both blamed each other)
This was not the case as Thompson was the only one who did show emotion at the trial and had cried many times prior and during it, he was the 1st to actually admit to what he had done and to understand the gravity of the act. It took years for Venables to do the same.
Thompson came from one of the strangest families I have ever researched as it was strangely hierarchical in terms of the abuse, they were basically left alone to fend for themselves (left alone emotionally and literally at times) but the eldest controlled the one below him through violence, even on the day of the murder John Thompson had brought his younger brother along at the time as he was not allowing him to go to school but through his whinging he was let off to return to the school.
To Thompson the acts of violence where understandable to him more so to someone younger than himself, one thing is for sure we can dispense with the born evil idea's as these two were products of what was and is still wrong with society.
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Morning Gordo30 two excellent posts you have made on Venables and Thompson I always thought Venables was the leader then thought after reading the forum and reading Thompsons background I was wrong but still think Venables was in control of the brutal killing of little Jamie. Venables has this streak in him of cruelty towards children as I see it and now has gone from the real thing to the internet being involved in porn I honestly don't think a guy like him can be rehabilitated. Thompson it would appear is leading a "normal" life but sadly Venables never will in my humble opinion.We talk of these two lads but we must not forget the victims here a little boy who was killed just for the fun and pleasure of it and was never allowed to grow up and Jamie's mother who will never have a day at peace thinking of what her baby suffered and she was not able to help him :( :( :(. I fail to see how the mind of such as Venables can ever be changed hope I am wrong.
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Gordo30, good morning. I echo what Susan has said and I also have the same reservations as she has regarding Venables because I don't believe it's possible to entirely deconstruct the protective armour with which we shield ourselves. Venables armour would, of necessity, have been thicker than most. This isn't an attempt to excuse or judge what he participated in, but to understand. However, with understanding, there may have to be the acceptance that there are some people who CANNOT be fully changed. For Venables it simply may NOT be possible for him to allow his "armour" to be stripped away because having to look at how his life had been and what had happened as a result would leave him vulnerable, the very thing that the "armour" was grown to prevent.
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Hello april after reading about their upbringing I would have thought that Thompson would have been the hardest of the two to change but that is obviously not the case. I read that Venables Dad let him watch video's at a very young age on porn and violence so maybe that is what introduced him to porn and the violent streak he showed towards James Budger. Wonder which one of them decided they should entice James away from his Mother and commit the horrendous murder. Why did it happen that day although Thompson had shown violence towards his brothers it seemed like the survival of the fittest in the Thompson family but what sparked off the idea of doing what they did to little James Bulger wonder if they have ever discussed their reasons with Social Workers. Very sad indeed all round.
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Susan HELLO :) I imagine they would both have had therapy but it doesn't work for everyone. Of the two, I feel that Venebles was more at the mercy of others than Thompson who gained some control over others through his family's heiratical system. To say that Venables applied all those things to little Jamie which he would have LIKED to apply to those how had hurt him, is perhaps too simplistic, but it forms part of the bigger picture.
It seems possible that Thompson, because he inflicted pain on the younger members of his family, had more control than Venables who had pain inflicted on him by others. Venables gained control courtesy of violent and pornographic videos in that he could imagine that HE was in them. Thompson and Venebles became a toxic mix. I think they had both fantasized about acting out some kind of vicious scenario and it was only a matter of time before the opportunity presented itself.
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Hello April. Would imagine Thompson gained power in his life by exerting hurt on others, Venables was mainly a victim of others with no outlet for his anger against those that hurt him. He was probably looking conciously or not for his own victim? In many ways they were all victims although this is an unpopular comment to make. We should remember there were adults involved in this who maybe should have had to take some blame for the neglect and abuse of their children. Imo
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Caroline stated..
Thompson was seen as the instigator because he seemed less emotional (although they both blamed each other)
This was not the case as Thompson was the only one who did show emotion at the trial and had cried many times prior and during it, he was the 1st to actually admit to what he had done and to understand the gravity of the act. It took years for Venables to do the same.
Thompson came from one of the strangest families I have ever researched as it was strangely hierarchical in terms of the abuse, they were basically left alone to fend for themselves (left alone emotionally and literally at times) but the eldest controlled the one below him through violence, even on the day of the murder John Thompson had brought his younger brother along at the time as he was not allowing him to go to school but through his whinging he was let off to return to the school.
To Thompson the acts of violence where understandable to him more so to someone younger than himself, one thing is for sure we can dispense with the born evil idea's as these two were products of what was and is still wrong with society.
It was Venables who cried constantly and admitted to the crime first (stating "We did it. Will you tell his mum I'm sorry?"). His defence was to blame Thompson - who has ALWAYS been described as the 'cold' instigator.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/james-bulger-murder-20-years-1594811
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-21413364
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It was Venables who cried constantly and admitted to the crime first (stating "We did it. Will you tell his mum I'm sorry?"). His defence was to blame Thompson - who has ALWAYS been described as the 'cold' instigator.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/james-bulger-murder-20-years-1594811
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-21413364
Hi Caroline, you are right, I was a little confused by the suggestion it was the other way round. Maybe the fact Venables was more able to emote than Thompson has also made it more difficult for him to come to terms with what he did and move on? I mean if Thompson, who had a loveless and appallingly abusive childhood has no real ability to emote because he was so damaged and he rather plays a part having read the rules of social and relationship behaviour whereas Venables may be so guilt ridden and unable to grasp the concept of his own behaviour that he suffers mental illness on some level? We really don't know the truth of the matter and that's why I believe we should not judge these boys by our own standards. :-\
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Hi Caroline, you are right, I was a little confused by the suggestion it was the other way round. Maybe the fact Venables was more able to emote than Thompson has also made it more difficult for him to come to terms with what he did and move on? I mean if Thompson, who had a loveless and appallingly abusive childhood has no real ability to emote because he was so damaged and he rather plays a part having read the rules of social and relationship behaviour whereas Venables may be so guilt ridden and unable to grasp the concept of his own behaviour that he suffers mental illness on some level? We really don't know the truth of the matter and that's why I believe we should not judge these boys by our own standards. :-\
Hi Maggie, thanks, I thought I was going mad there for a sec ;D ;D.
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Hi Maggie/Caroline I am now confused to who was the instigator between Thompson and Venables I also thought Venables then Thompson and now I don't know. Caroline and yourself and Gordo30 post very reliable information but we seem to have a difference of opinion. I shall have to ask the BBC.
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Hi Maggie/Caroline I am now confused to who was the instigator between Thompson and Venables I also thought Venables then Thompson and now I don't know. Caroline and yourself and Gordo30 post very reliable information but we seem to have a difference of opinion. I shall have to ask the BBC.
As am I, Susan. I based what I said on Gordo30's info but if Caroline's info is correct, I'm going to have to rework it. Oh well, back to the drawing board :D
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Hi april both Caroline and Gordo30 are very reliable sources so we will have to wait till they are both on the forum together and they can have a good old free for all ;D ;D ;D ;D You can be referee ;D
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Don't take my word for it ......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItmMDwlGluY -
The above link is an account of the initial interviews of Thompson and Venables by DS Phil Roberts (who interviewed Thompson) and Lawrence Lee (Solicitor of John Venables) taken from the Crimes that Shook Britain episode about the Bulger case. Drag the the progress bar to 6.50. Roberts clearly states that Thompson was regarded as the 'instigator' and that they had to 'drip feed' him evidence to which he continued to make excuses or blame Venables. Lawrence Lee then describes how after hours of being questioned 'Venables' finally admits killing James. Roberts then goes on to say how even AFTER hearing that Venables had admitted to killing James, Thompson continued to deny his part and said he was only present near the railway line at the 'initial stage' of the attack and blamed Venables for most of the injuries to poor James.
Another account of how Thompson was regarded as the instigator.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/bulger/6.html
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Hi Caroline thank you for the link on the Thompson and Venables case think one was as bad as the other. Infact I am in total disbelief especially that they got compensation find it difficult to accept they did not know what they were doing they knew it to be wrong and if I was James Bulgers Mother I could never find it in my heart to forgive them for what they did to her beautiful wee boy.
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The early reports from the newspapers allude to the times during the investigations and subsequent interviews where Thompson did indeed show less remorse, basically it wasn't his normal method of self preservation to blurt out what had happened, It took time to realise that what Venables was doing was in effect dropping him in it.
Venables knew what showing emotion did and how it could be used to manipulate people more so adults dealing with a child , I have always seen Venables as the instigator of the crime and what happened was very much his fantasy and his ultimate strike against everyone who had or were abusing him as these were mainly children.
When I talk about Thompson I was meaning at trial and in the dock, It took years for Venables to actually show any remorse or atonement for his crime after the trial and by that i mean through mental assessment, Venables spoke about his actions on that day to many different inmates of the various establishments, on occasion he got into a fight with one over who committed the worst crime and on occasion was said to have been bragging about it, which seems to still be a problem to this day.
The major problem was the coming together of these two boys, two individuals who were abused but reacted to that abuse differently, Venables wanted to become like his mentally disabled siblings because he had seen how these were shielded from that abuse i.e taken to special schools,days out and adult attention while he was left to fend for himself something he couldn't cope with.
Thompson on the other hand had learned to deal with his abuse by hitting back and thereby he felt no need to understand what he was encountering as long as he could cope with it by being stronger, no need to invent fantasies to take him away from the abuse but simply to attack that abuse head on.
When they came together you had strength being able to fulfill the fantasy.
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Hi Gordo30
I do agree with your post and think that each in their own way leaders but neither would have committed the horrendous crime against James Bulger wihout each other they both played a part. I think Thompson was the clever one of the two but in a quiet sort of deep way Venables was cunning and knew what he was about. Not much to choose between them in my eyes but do think Venables had the really cruel streak against children in him and this is why he is now into child porn. Thompson appears to have been rehabilitated. I am convinced both boys were disturbed.
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This is where I differ completely as for Thompson I don't think he was as messed up emotionally due to the type of abuse, It became a way of life for him just an everyday occurrence that he had to survive, he learned how to survive by using the same violence to get through his life to that point. The violence was used to control and control only works if there is someone to control through its use.
That's why I don't think that he had any plan to kill as it goes against the very nature he came to know. He had emotional attachments to kids in a form, even violence can be considered by a certain type of person as a form of affection and with younger brothers himself he had to have had some attachment to kids. He went to lay flowers at the crime scene and to adults that may seem some sick form of bravado but to a kid his age I feel he actually did have remorse and felt a form of tragedy at what transpired.
In the Thomson family although to us it was very dysfunctional the two older brothers who had to fight against the alcoholism of the mother and absence of the father went on to also have families and steady jobs and I,m sure the very youngest went on to make something of a good life for himself through the arts.
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Gordo30 do you think Thompson was easily lead by Venables and who do you think instigated the abduction of little James then the murder was it just a game they were playing. I have read that Thompson left his bloody shoe mark across the face of James Bulger what kind of a boy would do that. He was brought up to defend himself as he was surrounded by violence but he was obviously a bully and so was the other one. What happens in the heads of young boys that they can be so violent to an innocent young child who had done them no harm. They knew what they were doing was wrong but still did it. Glad to hear the other kids in the Thompson family have made good it proves that whatever kind of backgroud you come from it does not turn you into a young thug who tortures and murders a young child as Thompson and Venables did so how can we use their background as a reason for this horrendous crime. Who knows Thompson could have been quite smart in his thinking and that is why he lay flowers at the crime scene strange behaviour in my way of thinking did he think that was going to make things right. But we all think differently and have different opinions and only they know what went on in their heads that day and everyday since.
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I not sure if Thompson was led by Venables, when you think of the abduction of James, Thompson had already perpetrated a similar even that day with his younger brother. I'm not sure if I could argue that he wasn't the person to hatch the idea of taking another child, but faced with that opportunity I would argue that the events afterwards were controlled by Venables. When I think of some of the 50+ people who witnessed or tried to intervene in that abduction over the time all the excuse's to keep James with them came from Venables.
I don't think the phrase "easily led" applies as I believe Thompson was as culpable as Venables but the final element of the death I would lay at Venables hand , even to the point that he carried it out.
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Gordo30 wonder if Thompson was afraid of Venables as I am sure he did not set our to kill James but once involved he had to act the part. I believe Venables called him all kind of names as he played with dolls I think so maybe Thompson had to show how tough he was. Anyway it would appear that he has been rehabilitated but I don't think Venables ever will be sadly now he is into porn heaven knows where this will lead to hope I am wrong.
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The early reports from the newspapers allude to the times during the investigations and subsequent interviews where Thompson did indeed show less remorse, basically it wasn't his normal method of self preservation to blurt out what had happened, It took time to realise that what Venables was doing was in effect dropping him in it.
Venables knew what showing emotion did and how it could be used to manipulate people more so adults dealing with a child , I have always seen Venables as the instigator of the crime and what happened was very much his fantasy and his ultimate strike against everyone who had or were abusing him as these were mainly children.
When I talk about Thompson I was meaning at trial and in the dock, It took years for Venables to actually show any remorse or atonement for his crime after the trial and by that i mean through mental assessment, Venables spoke about his actions on that day to many different inmates of the various establishments, on occasion he got into a fight with one over who committed the worst crime and on occasion was said to have been bragging about it, which seems to still be a problem to this day.
The major problem was the coming together of these two boys, two individuals who were abused but reacted to that abuse differently, Venables wanted to become like his mentally disabled siblings because he had seen how these were shielded from that abuse i.e taken to special schools,days out and adult attention while he was left to fend for himself something he couldn't cope with.
Thompson on the other hand had learned to deal with his abuse by hitting back and thereby he felt no need to understand what he was encountering as long as he could cope with it by being stronger, no need to invent fantasies to take him away from the abuse but simply to attack that abuse head on.
When they came together you had strength being able to fulfill the fantasy.
Which was what I was referring to with my initial comment. The feeling at the time was that Thompson was the instigator. Personally, I feel they were both equally to blame. Singularly, they may never have offended but together they formed a dangerous alliance.
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Which was what I was referring to with my initial comment. The feeling at the time was that Thompson was the instigator. Personally, I feel they were both equally to blame. Singularly, they may never have offended but together they formed a dangerous alliance.
Caroline, like the perfect storm, theirs was the perfect relationship in that each found in the other the components they lacked to form the necessary toxicity.
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I think that Thompson was more cunning than Venables. He instigated the bullying of Venables at school and if he was naughty in class,Venables followed suit.Venables admitted it was his idea to take James. But listen to how easily Thonpson lies in his police interview,and allegedly it took him years to admit his guilt. Although it does seem he is rehabilitated. As for Venables it seems to me he is a child locked in a mans body. Its almost like he didn't mature?
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Tyler I am sorry to have to disagree with you here but the actual amount of time the Thompson and Venables spent together in school was minimal, in fact Venables only came into contact with Thompson once he left his 1st school through the bullying. Venables did seem to have some reservations about the reputation the the Thompson,s and did his best to stay away from Thompson to start with. When we talk about being "naughty in class" nothing fits more accurately in the way Venables manipulated the teachers at every turn, there was hardly a day that went by when Venables didn't disrupt the class to the point where he would imitate his older brother by banging his head on his desk almost for the whole duration of the school day. He went as far as to hold a ruler to a boys throat to get out of school although it was an isolated incedent and not one I feel he could of carried on with.
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Caroline, like the perfect storm, theirs was the perfect relationship in that each found in the other the components they lacked to form the necessary toxicity.
April your bang on there but when culpability needs to be assessed and any understand gained from what had happened and if I may say anything positive to come out of this crime then what happened that day has be examined fully and understood and that's why this type of discussion becomes imperative and we as adults don't blind ourselves to what occured and what might in the future happen.
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April your bang on there but when culpability needs to be assessed and any understand gained from what had happened and if I may say anything positive to come out of this crime then what happened that day has be examined fully and understood and that's why this type of discussion becomes imperative and we as adults don't blind ourselves to what occured and what might in the future happen.
Gordo, I have absolutely no argument with any part of what you say in the above. Indeed, I concur. My personal take is this. We come into the world "Tabula rasa" and the world takes our experiences of/in it and brands us with them. Those of us lucky enough to recognize that we have been branded in a less than attractive way stand a good chance of getting erased as much as possible of it. Sadly there will always be those who don't realize that they've been branded and see the behaviours inflicted by it as normal. These are the people who go on to inflict the same form of branding on the next generation which at some point may result in the type of tragedy which befell James Bulger.
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Gordo, I have absolutely no argument with any part of what you say in the above. Indeed, I concur. My personal take is this. We come into the world "Tabula rasa" and the world takes our experiences of/in it and brands us with them. Those of us lucky enough to recognize that we have been branded in a less than attractive way stand a good chance of getting erased as much as possible of it. Sadly there will always be those who don't realize that they've been branded and see the behaviours inflicted by it as normal. These are the people who go on to inflict the same form of branding on the next generation which at some point may result in the type of tragedy which befell James Bulger.
Absoutely, April it's a wheel which turns generation after generation. One would imagine the parents of both boys were damaged to different extents and in different ways by their own upbringing and not able to recognise this within themselves and probably it was so for generations back in time. It's hard to know where the real blame lies in such families.....depravation, lack of education, grinding poverty, or genetically low emoting capabilities? None of it a reason on it's own and there are many who suffer such experience and recognise it but for some reason others just don't or can't?
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H Mags some of the Thompson boys have gone on to lead a "normal" life so their upbringing did not affect them to the extent of making them into violent little thugs like Thompson and Venables. I believe Thompson is doing a degree at open university Venables I am afraid is going nowhere he has shown signs of violence he has bragged of his crime and is heavily involved in child porn. Off to read april's post my Oxford Dictionary is at the ready ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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H Mags some of the Thompson boys have gone on to lead a "normal" life so their upbringing did not affect them to the extent of making them into violent little thugs like Thompson and Venables. I believe Thompson is doing a degree at open university Venables I am afraid is going nowhere he has shown signs of violence he has bragged of his crime and is heavily involved in child porn. Off to read april's post my Oxford Dictionary is at the ready ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I know Susie but there is always a continuation in parts of these families. I remember the graph egap posted about a year ago which showed the difference between people's emoting skills and it was quite a big gap between the top and the bottom.
I presume the bottom represented people who would be considered psychopathic up to others who emote highly and instinctively where it's an instinctive gift. I imagine Venables may be somewhere near the bottom genetically, some of his siblings may have been higher up the scale. If his life had been kinder he may never have been anything worse than a bit callous and heartless??
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Hi Mags I thought Venables had more support from Susan his Mother than Thompson ever did from his Mother. The Solicitor who represented Venables said he looked through the glass partition at Thompson who turned and said you are a f*****g ugly b*****d nice child by the sound of it. He said Thompson was the coldest child he had ever come across. I think Venables was an attention seeker but had a cruel streak in him and this is why he has not been rehabilitated Thompson may appear to have been but I do wonder as he is clever and will know how to play the system Venables I fear does not want to play the system. Sorry for being so cynical but that is how I feel about both of them. In a post by Gordo yesterday he said Thompson lay flowers at the scene of James Bulger's death now to me that is not showing remorse but showing how underhand and cunning he was for a 10 year old.
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Hi Mags I thought Venables had more support from Susan his Mother than Thompson ever did from his Mother. The Solicitor who represented Venables said he looked through the glass partition at Thompson who turned and said you are a f*****g ugly b*****d nice child by the sound of it. He said Thompson was the coldest child he had ever come across. I think Venables was an attention seeker but had a cruel streak in him and this is why he has not been rehabilitated Thompson may appear to have been but I do wonder as he is clever and will know how to play the system Venables I fear does not want to play the system. Sorry for being so cynical but that is how I feel about both of them. In a post by Gordo yesterday he said Thompson lay flowers at the scene of James Bulger's death now to me that is not showing remorse but showing how underhand and cunning he was for a 10 year old.
Yes, Susie I do suspect that although Venables had love from his parents and however dysfunctional they were they did both try to give love to him he has a low emotional level and therefore cannot emote well or at all to other people. Thompson had a much crueller and unloving family so therefore he may have learned cruelty and anger or he also may have a genetically low ability to emote as maybe his mother did which caused her own lack of love and affection to her kids. We really don't know and it's really all speculation imo. :)
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Hi Mags I thought Venables had more support from Susan his Mother than Thompson ever did from his Mother. The Solicitor who represented Venables said he looked through the glass partition at Thompson who turned and said you are a f*****g ugly b*****d nice child by the sound of it. He said Thompson was the coldest child he had ever come across. I think Venables was an attention seeker but had a cruel streak in him and this is why he has not been rehabilitated Thompson may appear to have been but I do wonder as he is clever and will know how to play the system Venables I fear does not want to play the system. Sorry for being so cynical but that is how I feel about both of them. In a post by Gordo yesterday he said Thompson lay flowers at the scene of James Bulger's death now to me that is not showing remorse but showing how underhand and cunning he was for a 10 year old.
Susan, I'm sure you realize that I'm not excusing either of these boys, but like Gordo, I do think it's important to understand them which also means understanding the worlds they inhabited. EG, if we look at that sentence "You are a f*****g ugly b*****d" they're not really the sort of words children use to address other children, but I wouldn't mind betting that he'd heard it said by his parents, to each other, OR if one of them was feeling particularly cruel, to him. If left to their own devices and given no boundries or guidance, children become feral and in such cases full rehabilitation may never happen.
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Hi Mags
yes we all have our own views Gordo posted yesterday that Thompson did show affection to his young brother (think it was Gordo) and I understand Thompson did play with dolls and infact he intended to rob one on the day they snatched little James. Venables tormented him because of this and also Venables knew when to turn on the tears when he thought it was to his advantage. The only people who knew what was going on in their heads that day was them and we will never really know.
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Hi april I agree Thompson had probably heard his Father say that to his Mother and he was brought up without any boundaries swearing at neighbours fighting the whole family had a bad reputation. Venables what can I say about him he was an attention seeker and used the tears when it suited him IMO the kind of upbringing they had was not the sole reason they carried out the attack on James Bulger they were both very disturbed boys and not mentally stable to do what they did and are they rehabilitated I wonder.
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Hi april I agree Thompson had probably heard his Father say that to his Mother and he was brought up without any boundaries swearing at neighbours fighting the whole family had a bad reputation. Venables what can I say about him he was an attention seeker and used the tears when it suited him IMO the kind of upbringing they had was not the sole reason they carried out the attack on James Bulger they were both very disturbed boys and not mentally stable to do what they did and are they rehabilitated I wonder.
Sadly, Susan, by the time we know the answer to your question, it may be too late.
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Hello april you must find people like me quite difficult as I don't fit into the text book theories of the why's and therefore's. I know you have had training and have much more experience than me in these matters I have none at all. I know I am always quoting "give me the child and I will give you the man" but I don't think either Thompson or Venables were subjected to horrendous cruelty like they inflicted on James Bulger they may have been into boys fighting and name calling and emotionally neglected but their life was not so much more different than hundreds of other kids who did not go and commit a cruel preplanned sadistic slow death to a small child who could not defend himself and what they did was for pleasure and amusement and for Thompson to lay flowers at the crime scene tells me all I need to know about him don't think he was capable of remorse until he knew it would be to his benefit. I know I sound so hard but my thoughts are always with James Bulger's parents especially his Mother.
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Hello april you must find people like me quite difficult as I don't fit into the text book theories of the why's and therefore's. I know you have had training and have much more experience than me in these matters I have none at all. I know I am always quoting "give me the child and I will give you the man" but I don't think either Thompson or Venables were subjected to horrendous cruelty like they inflicted on James Bulger they may have been into boys fighting and name calling and emotionally neglected but their life was not so much more different than hundreds of other kids who did not go and commit a cruel preplanned sadistic slow death to a small child who could not defend himself and what they did was for pleasure and amusement and for Thompson to lay flowers at the crime scene tells me all I need to know about him don't think he was capable of remorse until he knew it would be to his benefit. I know I sound so hard but my thoughts are always with James Bulger's parents especially his Mother.
Susan, there has to be a background to every story because nothing just happens on its own. Thomson laying flowers at the crime scene was tantamount to any other child offering to clean the family cars because its' wrong doings had been discovered. None of us is qualified to say how much cruelty Thompson and Venables were subjected to and you may be correct in saying that it was no worse than that experienced by countless others, but if we measured outcome by experience, I, like Sheila, may have developed schizophrenia OR Sheila, as I, would have come through bruised but stronger. The big difference is that Thompson and Venables met and the internalized pain and anger they both held wasn't just doubled, it multiplied and spiralled out of control until it became a seething need to revenge themselves on the cruelty and neglect they had experienced and I'm fully convinced there was an element of "Serves you right for having a Mum who loves you" about what they did but I believe emphatically that had either of them been in that shopping mall by themselves, James would still be alive.
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april found your post very interesting and you of course know more about behavioural problems than I most 10 year old boys I knew were either choir boys or the worse thing they ever did was steal apples and knock on doors although my husband in his line of work met many Thompson and Venable type kids most of them went on to abuse drugs.
My knowledge on this subject is limited and most is what I have read on the internet but I have just read where Jon Venables came from a very respectable Mother and Father who loved him and he loved them I think his biggest problem was he was bullied by other kids but has shown signs of violence in recent years he is the difficult one I think to figure out. Thompson was a survivor but think his Mother loved him when she was sober and they were dragged up as opposed to brought up. Think he was street wise and when he was arrested he said why would I kill a baby when I put a single rose at the crime scene in his own mind he thought this would make the police suspect him less. Anyway have read what they did to him and find it difficult to comprehend how any human being could do this to another but it happened. I hope James Bulgers Mother can find some peace in her life and Sue Venables too who appeared to really love her son I suppose in her own way the Mother of Thompson did as well. It is strange that the Solicitor representing Venables expected Thompson to reoffend not Venables.
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april found your post very interesting and you of course know more about behavioural problems than I most 10 year old boys I knew were either choir boys or the worse thing they ever did was steal apples and knock on doors although my husband in his line of work met many Thompson and Venable type kids most of them went on to abuse drugs.
My knowledge on this subject is limited and most is what I have read on the internet but I have just read where Jon Venables came from a very respectable Mother and Father who loved him and he loved them I think his biggest problem was he was bullied by other kids but has shown signs of violence in recent years he is the difficult one I think to figure out. Thompson was a survivor but think his Mother loved him when she was sober and they were dragged up as opposed to brought up. Think he was street wise and when he was arrested he said why would I kill a baby when I put a single rose at the crime scene in his own mind he thought this would make the police suspect him less. Anyway have read what they did to him and find it difficult to comprehend how any human being could do this to another but it happened. I hope James Bulgers Mother can find some peace in her life and Sue Venables too who appeared to really love her son I suppose in her own way the Mother of Thompson did as well. It is strange that the Solicitor representing Venables expected Thompson to reoffend not Venables.
Susan, I feel sure that all those who became involved with Thompson and Venables because of what they did to James, would sooner not have been. I think they would have been a mix of scared child, devious, defiant adolescent, and feral animal.
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april I agree most people involved in the case have never experienced anything like it and twenty years on it is still vivid in their minds. I think Thompson tried to act the tough guy but was as you said a scared child underneath and Venables seemed more worried that his parents would not love him anymore. Tragic all round I would say and very very sad.