Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on May 06, 2013, 10:04:AM
-
How to combat "bias" in chosen trial judges - Mike Tesko's law...
Two judges are required at each trial by jury - one whose views are in favour of guilt, a second judge in favour of innocence...
-
How to combat "bias" in chosen, trial judges - Mike Tesko's law...
Two judges are required at each trial by jury - one whose views are in favour of guilt, a second judge in favour of innocence...
Until my law is introduced, and applied, there will always be potential miscarriages of justice, because the CPS / DPP can manipulate which judges a case is tried in front of, thus effecting the outcome of trials, and appeals - it is a fact that certain judges are known to favour prosecution arguments, it's a bit like our forum, where we have the views of each side, them versus us, us versus them...
-
It can be a case of "Pot luck" how a trial pans out, and who gets convicted or not, there's nothing fair about certain trials, it's like a game, where cases are manipulated, depending on the views of a particular judge, none of them are impartial, we need a dramatic overall of the way cases are tried in the UK, I might even be pursuaded to agree to a trail being heard by three judges, where one favours the prosecutions arguments, another the defence arguments, and a third who's job it is, to be impartial...
-
It can be a case of "Pot luck" how a trial pans out, and who gets convicted or not, there's nothing fair about certain trials, it's like a game, where cases are manipulated, depending on the views of a particular judge, none of them are impartial, we need a dramatic overall of the way cases are tried in the UK, I might even be pursuaded to agree to a trail being heard by three judges, where one favours the prosecutions arguments, another the defence arguments, and a third who's job it is to be impartial...
I have been there, I have witnessed this bias, I have suffered as a result of this bias, things need to dramatically change, so that no-one can ever complain, that they did not receive a fair trial - lets eliminate appeals, let trials be fair...
That is all I ask for, before I leave this earthly, existence...
-
Mike,,a lot has to do with the fact as to whether you're " liked " or not too,,,as an instant dislike or a clash of personalities doesn't go down too well.
This shouldn't come into it,,,but it does. Biased one way or the other before anyone has uttered a word.
-
It is just a dream of mine, that each and every person who elects to stand trial, should at the time of such a trial, never be in fear that they did not receive a fair hearing, and that all the interpretations of the evidence were argued, or mentioned to a jury, who reached a verdict...
Is that / this too much to ask for - Mike Tesko's Law, cut out the bias in these criminal trials, cut down the costs of appealss to the public purse, let every accussed person or individual know that whatever the outcome, they did receive a fair trial, no matter what...
-
Mike,,a lot has to do with the fact as to whether you're " liked " or not too,,,as an instant dislike or a clash of personalities doesn't go down too well.
This shouldn't come into it,,,but it does. Biased one way or the other before anyone has uttered a word.
This I know indirectly from Sir John Globe. ( nudge nudge-wink wink )
-
Mike,,a lot has to do with the fact as to whether you're " liked " or not too,,,as an instant dislike or a clash of personalities doesn't go down too well.
This shouldn't come into it,,,but it does. Biased one way or the other before anyone has uttered a word.
I agree, Bias in trials is unforgiveable, if it is not...
-
This I know indirectly from Sir John Globe. ( nudge nudge-wink wink )
Hi Lookout
Do you mean Sir Henry Globe?
Jim
-
Until my law is introduced, and applied, there will always be potential miscarriages of justice, because the CPS / DPP can manipulate which judges a case is tried in front of, thus effecting the outcome of trials, and appeals - it is a fact that certain judges are known to favour prosecution arguments, it's a bit like our forum, where we have the views of each side, them versus us, us versus them...
Hi Mike
The CPS/DPP cannot manipulate which Judge hears a case
It is utter bollocks to suggest otherwise
Jim
-
Hi Mike
The CPS/DPP cannot manipulate which Judge hears a case
It is utter bollocks to suggest otherwise
Jim
Of course they can, its to do with listing the case, stop trying to tell me, what Michael Mansfield, said to me, happens, they simply list cases to be heard when they know certain judgges are, or will be available...
-
Of course they can, its to do with listing the case, stop trying to tell me, what Michael Mansfield, said to me, happens, they simply list cases to be heard when they know certain judgges are, or will be available...
Trials, and appeals are listed for specific time duration, and when a case is listed for hearing, this can be manipulated to fall at the right time...
-
Trials, and appeals are listed for specific time duration, and when a case is listed for hearing, this can be manipulated to fall at the right time...
Hi Mike
Who manipulates the system?
Are you seriously suggesting that the CPS/DPP can arrange which judge hears a particular case?
Jim
-
Hi Lookout
Do you mean Sir Henry Globe?
Jim
Is it Henry John,Jim.?
-
Is it Henry John,Jim.?
Yes,,that's the man.
-
Yes,,that's the man.
Hi Lookout
I think it's Henry Brian Globe
Jim
-
Is it Henry John,Jim.?
Or John Henry ? ( after the song. )
-
Hi Mike
Who manipulates the system?
Are you seriously suggesting that the CPS/DPP can arrange which judge hears a particular case?
Jim
Although they should not, I certainly believe they can and sometimes do influence the decision concerning the judge allocated to a specific case.
-
Although they should not, I certainly believe they can and sometimes do influence the decision concerning the judge allocated to a specific case.
Hi NGB
But who does the manipulation?
Jim
-
Hi Lookout
I think it's Henry Brian Globe
Jim
I'm not on first name terms,Jim,,just Mr Globe to me.
-
Hi NGB
But who does the manipulation?
Jim
Court staff responsible for listing, having regular contact with counsel's clerks and officials at the CPS/DPP. Also sometimes judges take steps to be allocated a particular case. I suspect these things are done usually on a "nod and a wink" basis. It may not happen now - I have not been involved since the mid 1990s, but it certainly happened then.
-
Does anyone know of what month in 1986 the CPS was set up ?
-
Court staff responsible for listing, having regular contact with counsel's clerks and officials at the CPS/DPP. Also sometimes judges take steps to be allocated a particular case. I suspect these things are done usually on a "nod and a wink" basis. It may not happen now - I have not been involved since the mid 1990s, but it certainly happened then.
Hi NGB
Well, can't both sides play that game?
Jim
-
Hi NGB
Well, can't both sides play that game?
Jim
In theory, yes, but it is far more difficult. Defendants are obviously represnted by a range of different firms of solicitors. These solicitors never have staff based at a Crown Court. The CPS on the other hand act for the proscution is the vast majority of cases. They frequently have staff based at court. They therefore know the court staff better and inevitably have more influence as a result of that.
-
In theory, yes, but it is far more difficult. Defendants are obviously represnted by a range of different firms of solicitors. These solicitors never have staff based at a Crown Court. The CPS on the other hand act for the proscution is the vast majority of cases. They frequently have staff based at court. They therefore know the court staff better and inevitably have more influence as a result of that.
What does "based at court" mean?
jim
-
What does "based at court" mean?
jim
Work in offices within the court building.
-
Work in offices within the court building.
Can you identify one court where CPS employees "work in offices within the court building"?
jim
-
Can you identify one court where CPS employees "work in offices within the court building"?
jim
Certainly when I was in practice there were staff at the Central Criminal Court. Maybe the position has changed now. You are a solicitor as I understand it - are you with the CPS? If so perhaps you could tell us the current position.
-
Certainly when I was in practice there were staff at the Central Criminal Court. Maybe the position has changed now. You are a solicitor as I understand it - are you with the CPS? If so perhaps you could tell us the current position.
Hi ngb
i'm not a solicitor but I am familiar with the court setting
I know of no court in the land where CPS employees are "based at" a criminal court
I do, however, accept that at many crown courts there is a room (which contains a telephone) which is used by CPS employees - but that is not (at least in my understanding of the term) an "office"- it's usually used to hang up coats and the like
jim
-
Hi ngb
i'm not a solicitor but I am familiar with the court setting
I know of no court in the land where CPS employees are "based at" a criminal court
I do, however, accept that at many crown courts there is a room (which contains a telephone) which is used by CPS employees - but that is not (at least in my understanding of the term) an "office"- it's usually used to hang up coats and the like
jim
If you are a police officer I accept you will have up to date information about current arrangements for the CPS at court. Do you go to the CCC?
-
If you are a police officer I accept you will have up to date information about current arrangements for the CPS at court. Do you go to the CCC?
Hi NGB
I've only been to CCC on one occasion and that was many decades ago
jim
[edited to fix quote]
-
The more I think about it, therre should only be two trial judges, one in favour of guilt, the other in favour of innocence, and the jury should be the judges of fact, as argued by both judges...
Mike Tesko's Law - it makes sense for a trial, to be fair...
-
The more I think about it, therre should only be two trial judges, one in favour of guilt, the other in favour of innocence, and the jury should be the judges of fact, as argued by both judges...
Mike Tesko's Law - it makes sense for a trial, to be fair...
Not bias...
-
Furthermore, I advocate that all witness statements should be recorded, so that it can be seen what questions were being asked, and answers given, at each step of the way, to counter the practice ofd police officers putting words into the mouths of witnesses...
-
Ive always held mike as British law as insane outdated and in need of change , why cant a judge come from the dirt and earned their place like coming from a council estate, why cant they take a wage of £15000 a year , judges are useless and live in another world to me like them or hate them i believe North Korean justice is harsh swift and the way to administer real justice.
-
Ive always held mike as British law as insane outdated and in need of change , why cant a judge come from the dirt and earned their place like coming from a council estate, why cant they take a wage of £15000 a year , judges are useless and live in another world to me like them or hate them i believe North Korean justice is harsh swift and the way to administer real justice.
hi mertol
And what do you suppose would have happened to a certain mr bamber if his trial had taken place in Korea ?
Oh, the irony
Jim
-
Ive always held mike as British law as insane outdated and in need of change , why cant a judge come from the dirt and earned their place like coming from a council estate, why cant they take a wage of £15000 a year , judges are useless and live in another world to me like them or hate them i believe North Korean justice is harsh swift and the way to administer real justice.
What a quite ridiculous statement.
On what experience of judges and the legal system are you basing your insight? Personal or working experience?
Are you aware of the years and years of training and dedication it takes to become a judge in England, Do you think that people should pursue this career path, often making numerous sacrifices along the way to reach their goal, then be 'rewarded' with a salary of £15,000?! What kind of world do you live in?!
-
Ive always held mike as British law as insane outdated and in need of change , why cant a judge come from the dirt and earned their place like coming from a council estate, why cant they take a wage of £15000 a year , judges are useless and live in another world to me like them or hate them i believe North Korean justice is harsh swift and the way to administer real justice.
Hi Mertol
Perhaps there are lots of misconceptions about judges :-\ The following book is good:
http://www.amazon.com/Sitting-Judgment-Working-Lives-Judges/dp/1849462399/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367906240&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=sitting+in+judgement+penny+darbyshire
-
Ive always held mike as British law as insane outdated and in need of change , why cant a judge come from the dirt and earned their place like coming from a council estate, why cant they take a wage of £15000 a year , judges are useless and live in another world to me like them or hate them i believe North Korean justice is harsh swift and the way to administer real justice.
I see where you're coming from, I think thats what we have jury members for.
The locals round here do 'administer' their own justice if and when they deem it necessary.
-
I see where you're coming from, I think thats what we have jury members for.
The locals round here do 'administer' their own justice if and when they deem it necessary.
The making of rules and administering of justice is not a straightforward as it may seem. Several years ago I did a course entitled "Crime, Justice and Society" during which we were broken up into groups and each group was given a list of crimes which we were asked to judge. After a set time we reconvened to deliver our findings. I was elected as spokesperson for my group and was first to take the stage. With much embarrassment, I had to confess that we hadn't been able to reach any decision. There was an audible sigh of relief. It seemed than none of the other groups had come to a mutual conclusion, either. We were a very eclectic group comprising journalists, magistrates and probation officers and those of us who were interested bystanders. One group member, who said very little, turned out to be a VERY high ranking police officer who was interviewed a few weeks later when it appeared our national security was thought to be under threat. I'm of the opinion that our judicial system hasn't moved any further forward from where it was when I attended that course in 1991.
-
The making of rules and administering of justice is not a straightforward as it may seem. Several years ago I did a course entitled "Crime, Justice and Society" during which we were broken up into groups and each group was given a list of crimes which we were asked to judge. After a set time we reconvened to deliver our findings. I was elected as spokesperson for my group and was first to take the stage. With much embarrassment, I had to confess that we hadn't been able to reach any decision. There was an audible sigh of relief. It seemed than none of the other groups had come to a mutual conclusion, either. We were a very eclectic group comprising journalists, magistrates and probation officers and those of us who were interested bystanders. One group member, who said very little, turned out to be a VERY high ranking police officer who was interviewed a few weeks later when it appeared our national security was thought to be under threat. I'm of the opinion that our judicial system hasn't moved any further forward from where it was when I attended that course in 1991.
Morning April
I would judge a crime by the impact it has on others eg victims :)
-
Morning april
I think I would judge a crime on the evidence infront of me and my own gut feeling and the actions of witnesses but of course you would not have that in your experiment.
-
Morning april
I think I would judge a crime on the evidence infront of me and my own gut feeling and the actions of witnesses but of course you would not have that in your experiment.
Morning April
I would judge a crime by the impact it has on others eg victims :)
Ladies, good afternoon :) Excellent solutions from you both BUT the were 8-10 people in each group and trying to convince all of them to go with ANY course of action was not possible. A bit like this forum, really, eh girls :)
-
Hello april
very difficult to get a group of people to agree. I have given this some thought and suspect I would be a nighmare on a Jury especially if my other half was on it as well a unanimous decision would never be reached ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Basically, what I am saying, is that the system of trial by jury needs to be changed so that trials are much more fairer, because at the moment there is a great deal of bias depending upon which trial judge you get - I can clearly remember Michael Mansfield, QC, commenting on two of the three appeal court judges who heard my appeal, he said we were up against it, because two of the judges who sat in judgement at my appeal were pro police, who would not accept any allegation of dishonesty and deceipt on the part of the police. He told me this and other things before we even set foot into the court of appeal, so nobody can ever hope to convince me that fiddling of case judgements doesn,t go on, because it does, and it did...
This bias could be eradicated at the stroke of a pen, if for example, two judges sat on the bench during trials, where one judge sided with the prosecutions arguments against the accused, and sought to interpret all the available evidence in favour of guilt, whilst the other judge sided with defence arguments and sought to interpret all the available evidence in favour of an acquital. At the end of a case, both judges would present a biased summing up to the jury, where one favours a conviction, whilst the other favours an acquital...
Trials should be fair, not biased...
-
Hello april
very difficult to get a group of people to agree. I have given this some thought and suspect I would be a nighmare on a Jury especially if my other half was on it as well a unanimous decision would never be reached ;D ;D ;D ;D
Susan Hello :) We were never told the reason for the course, but some of us suspected that there was a plan afoot to decentralise the courts by putting them out to community control as was done in medieval times. This naturally wouldn't have included the hearing of serious crimes which is probably just as well whenwe couldn't even decide what to do with the lad who'd nicked a television :D
-
Hello april the lad who nicked the teli must have been desperate with the rubbish that is on ;D ;D ;D is punishment should have been to make him watch the teli 24/7 ;D ;D ;D
-
hi mertol
And what do you suppose would have happened to a certain mr bamber if his trial had taken place in Korea ?
Oh, the irony
Jim
yes he would have gone , but nonsense like jm would not have counted in his sentence
-
Basically, what I am saying, is that the system of trial by jury needs to be changed so that trials are much more fairer, because at the moment there is a great deal of bias depending upon which trial judge you get - I can clearly remember Michael Mansfield, QC, commenting on two of the three appeal court judges who heard my appeal, he said we were up against it, because two of the judges who sat in judgement at my appeal were pro police, who would not accept any allegation of dishonesty and deceipt on the part of the police. He told me this and other things before we even set foot into the court of appeal, so nobody can ever hope to convince me that fiddling of case judgements doesn,t go on, because it does, and it did...
This bias could be eradicated at the stroke of a pen, if for example, two judges sat on the bench during trials, where one judge sided with the prosecutions arguments against the accused, and sought to interpret all the available evidence in favour of guilt, whilst the other judge sided with defence arguments and sought to interpret all the available evidence in favour of an acquital. At the end of a case, both judges would present a biased summing up to the jury, where one favours a conviction, whilst the other favours an acquital...
Trials should be fair, not biased...
A fair trial is like asking for a fair Mp mike asking a hell of a lot thesedays
-
A fair trial is like asking for a fair MP mike asking a hell of a lot these days
A what? ;D
-
A what? ;D
An excellent example of a contradiction in terms.