Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on July 14, 2012, 07:12:PM
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Body of Ralph Bamber was stage managed before police took photographs...
His head was photographed inside the coal scuttle, yet he had no facial injuries injuries on his face or head from it falling into contact against the metal rim of the bucket?
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Body of Ralph Bamber was stage managed before police took photographs...
His head was photographed inside the coal scuttle, yet he had no facial injuries injuries on his face or head from it falling into contact against the metal rim of the bucket?
If police found Ralph's body with his head resting in the coal hod, surely they would have been alerted to the fact that someone had placed his body on the floor in that position, with his head in the coal bucket and that there was no injuries to his face or his head from it striking the rim of the metal bucket?
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If police found Ralph's body with his head resting in the coal hod, surely they would have been alerted to the fact that someone had placed his body on the floor in that position, with his head in the coal bucket and that there was no injuries to his face or his head from it striking the rim of the metal bucket?
Not to mention for the fact that the gap behind the overturned chair upon which the crumpled heap of his body was just sufficient for the internal door that led through to the entrance hallway of the other kitchen, and the opening to the downstairs office, for the police to gain entry to the main kitchen?
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Not to mention for the fact that the gap behind the overturned chair upon which the crumpled heap of his body was just sufficient for the internal door that led through to the entrance hallway of the other kitchen, and the opening to the downstairs office, for the police to gain entry to the main kitchen?
Furthermore...
the fact that any would be killer had placed and positioned a pair of cotton trousers, along with a series of seat cushions, and a towel on the floor in the immediate vicinity at the base of the coal bucket, to prevent the spread of blood further afield on the kitchen floor, did nothing to alert the police that someone had gone out of their way to keep large areas of the kitchen floor blood free?
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Furthermore...
the fact that any would be killer had placed and positioned a pair of cotton trousers, along with a series of seat cushions, and a towel on the floor in the immediate vicinity at the base of the coal bucket, to prevent the spread of blood further afield on the kitchen floor, did nothing to alert the police that someone had gone out of their way to keep large areas of the kitchen floor blood free?
How convenient, also that the kitchen table was pushed to one side to allow the placement of the seat cushions, trousers and towel, aforementioned, on the floor, to do the job they had been placed there to do?
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According to one of the very first police officers who entered the main kitchen as part of the raid team, he described the scene that met the police inside, and in particular - that the kitchen table was overturned with broken crockery strewn about all over the kitchen floor? How then, is the kitchen table photographed upright with utensils and other sundries upon it by the time PC Bird started to take his crime scene photographs at about and from 10 O'clock that morning? How did the overturned kitchen table upright itself and have things placed upon the top of it, two and a half hours later?
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According to one of the very first police officers who entered the main kitchen as part of the raid team, he described the scene that met the police inside, and in particular - that the kitchen table was overturned with broken crockery strewn about all over the kitchen floor? How then, is the kitchen table photographed upright with utensils and other sundries upon it by the time PC Bird started to take his crime scene photographs at about and from 10 O'clock that morning? How did the overturned kitchen table upright itself and have things placed upon the top of it, two and a half hours later?
Worse still...
By the time PC Bird started to photograph the scene in the kitchen, there had materialized a large wooden chair, between the position of Ralph Bambers crumpled overturned body, and the door behind this which led to and from the hallway in the vicinity of the other kitchen and back door - how then if the police had not touched or moved anything prior to these photographs being taken by PC Bird at and from 10 O'clock, had the original raid team managed to get into the kitchen through that blocked doorway in order to make the discovery of only Ralph Bambers body in the kitchen, without disturbing that large wooden chair? How had it been physically possible for anyone to get into the kitchen with that large wooden chair pushed up against the very door that needed to open inwards into the main kitchen?
Impossible...
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Worse still...
By the time PC Bird started to photograph the scene in the kitchen, there had materialized a large wooden chair, between the position of Ralph Bambers crumpled overturned body, and the door behind this which led to and from the hallway in the vicinity of the other kitchen and back door - how then if the police had not touched or moved anything prior to these photographs being taken by PC Bird at and from 10 O'clock, had the original raid team managed to get into the kitchen through that blocked doorway in order to make the discovery of only Ralph Bambers body in the kitchen, without disturbing that large wooden chair? How had it been physically possible for anyone to get into the kitchen with that large wooden chair pushed up against the very door that needed to open inwards into the main kitchen?
Impossible...
With that large wooden chair pushed tightly up against the door between the kitchen and the back door entrance, not only would access to the main kitchen have not been possible for the six members of the raid team who first entered the kitchen at about 7:35am, but it would have prevented the senior officers who followed them into the kitchen at about 8:15am, to enter the premises by the very same route?
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With that large wooden chair pushed tightly up against the door between the kitchen and the back door entrance, not only would access to the main kitchen have not been possible for the six members of the raid team who first entered the kitchen at about 7:35am, but it would have prevented the senior officers who followed them into the kitchen at about 8:15am, to enter the premises by the very same route?
When the police surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI "Bob" Miller, entered the premises they would have been prevented from examining the body of Ralph Bamber in the kitchen and pronouncing him as being dead, (8:44am) because they would not have been able to get through the door into the kitchen by the route they described having taken, because of the position of that large wooden chair directly behind the door?
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When the police surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI "Bob" Miller, entered the premises they would have been prevented from examining the body of Ralph Bamber in the kitchen and pronouncing him as being dead, (8:44am) because they would not have been able to get through the door into the kitchen by the route they described having taken, because of the position of that large wooden chair directly behind the door?
By 9am, the Commander of the firearms operation, PS Adams, would not have been able to enter the kitchen and survey the scene there, because the very same door which would have served to prevent access to the kitchen by the raid team, would still be in the same position blocking off direct access...
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By 9am, the Commander of the firearms operation, PS Adams, would not have been able to enter the kitchen and survey the scene there, because the very same door which would have served to prevent access to the kitchen by the raid team, would still be in the same position blocking off direct access...
With the arrival of DCI "Taff" Jones, and DC Clarke at the scene at about 9:10am, how would they have been able to enter the main kitchen and see the body of Ralph Bamber, with that wooden chair still pushed up into position against the inside of the internal kitchen door?
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With the arrival of DCI "Taff" Jones, and DC Clarke at the scene at about 9:10am, how would they have been able to enter the main kitchen and see the body of Ralph Bamber, with that wooden chair still pushed up into position against the inside of the internal kitchen door?
Then of course...
What about the group of training officers who carried out a reconstruction of the raid as part of a training exercise? How had they managed to reconstruct access into the main kitchen, through the very door which was blocked off because of that wooden chair being pushed up against the door inside the kitchen, thus preventing the possibility of the door in question being opened at all?
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Then of course...
What about the group of training officers who carried out a reconstruction of the raid as part of a training exercise? How had they managed to reconstruct access into the main kitchen, through the very door which was blocked off because of that wooden chair being pushed up against the door inside the kitchen, thus preventing the possibility of the door in question being opened at all?
By the time SOCO arrived at the scene (9:20am), how had they managed to get into the main kitchen to view the overturned body of Ralph Bamber with his uninjured head in the coal bucket, if they could not get through the very door behind which was jammed the large wooden chair?
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By the time SOCO arrived at the scene (9:20am), how had they managed to get into the main kitchen to view the overturned body of Ralph Bamber with his uninjured head in the coal bucket, if they could not get through the very door behind which was jammed the large wooden chair?
10 minutes later, with the arrival of the Coroners officer, PC Wright, do I really need to ask the very same question, about how he managed to get into the main kitchen to view the body of Ralph Bamber, with his uninjured head resting in the coal hod, and the kitchen table overturned, or up righted by this stage, and the pair of cotton trousers, seat cushions and a towel strewn about on the Kitchen floor controlling the spread of blood?
Does anybody really believe that the police did not move or touch anything at all until after PC Bird started to take and took all of his photographs in certain parts of the farmhouse, from after 10 am?
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Did Jeremy stage manage the scene in the kitchen?
Did Sheila stage manage the scene in the kitchen?
Did Ralph Bamber stage manage the scene in the kitchen?
Did June Bamber stage manage the scene in the kitchen?
Did some as yet unidentified killer, stage manage the scene in the kitchen?
Or was it the police?
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Mike could we have the photos posted under the "Police trapped in kitchen for 15 minutes" thread posted again,especially the one with the silhouette of Ralph(Nevill) with words that are possible to read?
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You do not set about stage managing the scene in the kitchen unless you are trying to hide or cover something up, in my opinion...
This cover up started from a very early stage (within the first couple of hours of the bodies being found inside the farmhouse), and revolved around the original discovery of two bodies downstairs / three bodies upstairs, which turned into one body downstairs and four bodies upstairs - and the fact that police shot Sheila under the chin, during the movement and repositioning of the body / gun. It must follow that the displacement of a female body from downstairs to upstairs, was / is linked to the circumstances of how police ended up shooting Sheila...
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You do not set about stage managing the scene in the kitchen unless you are trying to hide or cover something up, in my opinion...
This cover up started from a very early stage (within the first couple of hours of the bodies being found inside the farmhouse), and revolved around the original discovery of two bodies downstairs / three bodies upstairs, which turned into one body downstairs and four bodies upstairs - and the fact that police shot Sheila under the chin, during the movement and repositioning of the body / gun. It must follow that the displacement of a female body from downstairs to upstairs, was / is linked to the circumstances of how police ended up shooting Sheila...
The undisclosed police officers report (1612) about the shooting incident in the kitchen, is also linked to the discovery of Sheila's body downstairs in the kitchen...
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(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18734;image)
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Mike could we have the photos posted under the "Police trapped in kitchen for 15 minutes" thread posted again,especially the one with the silhouette of Ralph(Nevill) with words that are possible to read?
These:-
(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4075;image
(2) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18680;image
(3) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4077;image
(4) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18681;image
(5) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18682;image
(6) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4080;image
(7) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4081;image
(8) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18683;image
(9) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4086;image
(10) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4090;image
(11) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4527;image
(12) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4528;image
(13) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18688;image
(14) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18689;image
(15) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18690;image
(16) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18691;image
(17) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18692;image
(18) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18693;image
(19) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=7295;image
(20) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18733;image
(21) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18734;image
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I wonder why no-one has ever questioned why there was no blood found on the kitchen table, or upon any utensil or sundry item upon it, or the floor in that part of the kitchen?
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I wonder why no-one has ever questioned why there was no blood found on the kitchen table, or upon any utensil or sundry item upon it, or the floor in that part of the kitchen?
You see, I don't get how there could have been a struggle with a badly wounded Ralph Bamber, and kitchen table gets knocked over, or otherwise, and utensils and sundry items get knocked about all over the place, and there is not a spot of blood on any of it, and more importantly, no such blood splashes or drips of blood to indicate that Ralph was / had been injured whilst such a struggle took place in the immediate vicinity of the kitchen mantle, where the mantle itself supposedly got scratched by the silencer fitted to the guns barrel, whilst Ralph had already been shot four times?
I don't buy the story about Ralph already having been shot up to four times before the struggle in the kitchen commenced, I don't buy into that scenario because there is a marked absence of any corresponding blood upon the kitchen table, any of the utensils or sundry items, or upon the floor / carpet in that immediate vicinity where all this activity allegedly took place or occurred...
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Hi Mike
Scott Lomax says in his book that the white towel is actually a white tea shirt. Also he says the towel and tea shirt is placed over the blood as were the cushions. I have a thought on the cushions....but I would rather not say at this stage... :)
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Imagine for one moment, picture in your minds eye, a badly wounded Ralph Bamber, shot up to four times already, blood dripping, running, splashing all over the place during the occasion when he supposedly struggled with the person who killed him. Kitchen table and contents knocked over, end of imaginary silencer coming into contact with the aga surround, and yet not even one microscopic drop or drip of his blood found its way upon anything in that part of the kitchen?
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You see, I don't get how there could have been a struggle with a badly wounded Ralph Bamber, and kitchen table gets knocked over, or otherwise, and utensils and sundry items get knocked about all over the place, and there is not a spot of blood on any of it, and more importantly, no such blood splashes or drips of blood to indicate that Ralph was / had been injured whilst such a struggle took place in the immediate vicinity of the kitchen mantle, where the mantle itself supposedly got scratched by the silencer fitted to the guns barrel, whilst Ralph had already been shot four times?
I don't buy the story about Ralph already having been shot up to four times before the struggle in the kitchen commenced, I don't buy into that scenario because there is a marked absence of any corresponding blood upon the kitchen table, any of the utensils or sundry items, or upon the floor / carpet in that immediate vicinity where all this activity allegedly took place or occurred...
Mike Nevill had been shot 8 times. Only 3 shell cases are in the kitchen area and extra shell case found in the main bedroom assuming he was shot times there once on the landing and once in shoulder on the stairs....the later confirms this because it was a downward shot... :) :) :)
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Mike Nevill had been shot 8 times. Only 3 shell cases are in the kitchen area and extra shell case found in the main bedroom assuming he was shot times there once on the landing and once in shoulder on the stairs....the later confirms this because it was a downward shot... :) :) :)
PI "Bob" Miller, instructed DC Hammersley to vacate the original four exhibits bearing the exhibit labels, DRH/1, DRH/2, DRH/3 and DRH/4, so that four bullet cases could be introduced into the main bedroom scenario, so I would suggest in the very strongest possible terms that at least four bullet cases which have inadvertently placed amongst the main bedroom totals are dodgy, and should be treated with skeptism. If you deduct these four cases from the 12 found in the bedroom, it leaves only 8. There was another bullet case found on the landing, and another one found on the stair (which police are saying was probably carried there upon the tread of a policeman's boot as a result of walking through the crime scene...
June Bamber was shot seven times in the main bedroom - this would leave only one more bullet case, and this corresponds to the fatal shot under Sheila's chin (in my opinion)...
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PI "Bob" Miller, instructed DC Hammersley to vacate the original four exhibits bearing the exhibit labels, DRH/1, DRH/2, DRH/3 and DRH/4, so that four bullet cases could be introduced into the main bedroom scenario, so I would suggest in the very strongest possible terms that at least four bullet cases which have inadvertently placed amongst the main bedroom totals are dodgy, and should be treated with skeptism. If you deduct these four cases from the 12 found in the bedroom, it leaves only 8. There was another bullet case found on the landing, and another one found on the stair (which police are saying was probably carried there upon the tread of a policeman's boot as a result of walking through the crime scene...
June Bamber was shot seven times in the main bedroom - this would leave only one more bullet case, and this corresponds to the fatal shot under Sheila's chin (in my opinion)...
June Bamber - 1
June Bamber - 2
June Bamber - 3
June Bamber - 4
June Bamber - 5
June Bamber - 6
June Bamber - 7
Sheila Caffell - 1
8 Bullet cases found in main bedroom, before four additional bullet cases were added into the equation upon the instruction of Pi "Bob" Miller...
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June Bamber - 1
June Bamber - 2
June Bamber - 3
June Bamber - 4
June Bamber - 5
June Bamber - 6
June Bamber - 7
Sheila Caffell - 1
8 Bullet cases found in main bedroom, before four additional bullet cases were added into the equation upon the instruction of Pi "Bob" Miller...
Four bullet cases have been added to the bedroom scenario by and under the instruction of PI "Bob" Miller, after the nature of the case changed from SC/688/85 to SC/786/85...
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Just explain again your scenario Mike. Picture 14 suggests a hand grasping the side of the kitchen worktop,and blood on the floor near the telephone,yet we have to account for a telephone call made by Ralph(Nevill). Could you also explain the area on photo 18-is it an alcove to the kitchen where Jeremy laid the rifle the previous evening? Could you also explain this chair propped up against the kitchen door-is there only one egress from the kitchen or is the back door to the house the kitchen door leading onto the garden,with another door in the kitchen leading up one of the staircases?
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Just explain again your scenario Mike. Picture 14 suggests a hand grasping the side of the kitchen worktop,and blood on the floor near the telephone,yet we have to account for a telephone call made by Ralph(Nevill).
Bloodied fingerprints on the edge of kitchen worktop were / are from Ralph Bambers left hand, and blood on the floor is related to this injury. If Ralph was already injured when he made the call to Jeremy's cottage, he must have picked up and used the telephone with the fingers of his uninjured right hand. However, the bullet wound injury to Ralph's left arm could have taken place or occurred after Ralph had called Jeremy and the police, or even before Ralph activated the attack alarm. Either way, this gives a perfectly reasonable explanation for why there was no blood found on the telephone ( I would strongly suggest)...
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Bloodied fingerprints on the edge of kitchen worktop were / are from Ralph Bambers left hand, and blood on the floor is related to this injury. If Ralph was already injured when he made the call to Jeremy's cottage, he must have picked up and used the telephone with the fingers of his uninjured right hand. However, the bullet wound injury to Ralph's left arm could have taken place or occurred after Ralph had called Jeremy and the police, or even before Ralph activated the attack alarm. Either way, this gives a perfectly reasonable explanation for why there was no blood found on the telephone ( I would strongly suggest)...
Just for arguments sake, let us look at the four non fatal wounds the police case suggests were inflicted whilst he was upstairs in the bedroom:-
(1) - Bullet PV/2 - left arm of Ralph Bmber
(2) - Bullet PV/5 - fragment from left jaw
(3) - Bullet PV/10 - left side of neck
(4) - Bullet PV/11 - cervical muscles in left side of neck
Now...
Ask yourself why there was / is no evidence at all that Ralph Bamber was bleeding from any other wound other than the wound to his left arm at the time he left his fingerprints on the edge of the kitchen worktop? Why was / is there no evidence of any expiated blood from the other three wounds to his jaw, and the left side of his neck, found upon the top of the kitchen worktop, or upon any sundry item placed there in that locality? I would suggest that the marked absence of any such expiated blood from these other wounds was / is because by that stage when those bloodied fingermarks were made upon the edge of the worktop, had not been inflicted by the time those fingermarks were made there on that part of the worktop. If anything, the absence of any expiated blood from any or either of the other three wounds helps to establish that Ralph Bamber had not been shot up to four times inside the main bedroom....
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If I am wrong (which I am not) it would mean that Ralph was shot four times non fatally upstairs in the bedroom, and that he made it all the way downstairs to the kitchen, without so much of a speck of microscopic blood being expiated in the bedroom, on the landing, down the stairs and on the kitchen worktop close to the telephone?
I am sorry but that proposition is a totally unacceptable one - it didn't happen like that at all...
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If I am wrong (which I am not) it would mean that Ralph was shot four times non fatally upstairs in the bedroom, and that he made it all the way downstairs to the kitchen, without so much of a speck of microscopic blood being expiated in the bedroom, on the landing, down the stairs and on the kitchen worktop close to the telephone?
I am sorry but that proposition is a totally unacceptable one - it didn't happen like that at all...
Furthermore, no expiated blood in the vicinity of the aga surround where the alleged struggle between Ralph and his killer took place? Think about it, it didn't happen like that at all. Police have introduced a story to fool the jury into convicting Jeremy of these murders by relying upon a false scenario that Ralph had been shot four times in the bedroom. Police falsified the account about how many bullet cases had been found inside the main bedroom by adding four additional bullet cases to the total found there, changing the ratio from 8 to 12 in the process...
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Absence of blood on the telephone is indicative of Ralph having made that call to Jeremy and the police before he was shot in the jaw, and the right side of his neck...
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Absence of blood on the telephone is indicative of Ralph having made that call to Jeremy and the police before he was shot in the jaw, and the right side of his neck...
What is also apparent is that Ralph was not shot four times non fatally upstairs in the bedroom, before he came downstairs, or was brought downstairs, but that he may have been shot at least three times non fatally whilst he was present in the kitchen? I am prepared to accept that he could have been shot once non fatally whilst he was upstairs on the landing near the top of the stairs, but if so no time can be fixed to exactly at what stage he was shot in the laft arm on that occasion?
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So you're saying that at this stage Sheila has shot Ralph(Nevill) once,he decides to try and conceal the fact that it's a family member so he contacts another member of the family,Jeremy on the telephone to keep the incident "in-house". But we have to explain why this telephone call is interrupted suddenly,and how Nevill manages to make a further call to the Police. If Sheila is standing over him with the gun at this stage and he puts the receiver down,then she gives him the severe beating with the rifle butt it would explain the blood in the telephone area but not where Nevill's body is eventually found.
However if it was Jeremy who came into the master bedroom after having shot the twins in theirs it's possible that Nevill is waiting for the intruder. Jeremy starts firing at Nevill and June,but runs out of ammunition and has to reload the gun. Nevill manages to get onto the landing and moves downstairs to attempt to use the telephone. Nevill is shot once more on the landing but manages to get into the kitchen as far as the kitchen worktop where he rests his bloodied hand,but by this time Jeremy is there and fires at him again. Nevill instinctively heads for the kitchen door where he is finally killed and bashed by Jeremy. In this scenario there is no telephone call. Then Jeremy goes back upstairs to finish off June,who by this stage has managed to drag herself to the door,where she dies with a gunshot between the eyes.
He then goes to Sheila,who as Pamela Boutflour said at 10pm the previous evening sounded like a zombie,and who would go to her death meekly not knowing anything about it.
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So you're saying that at this stage Sheila has shot Ralph(Nevill) once,he decides to try and conceal the fact that it's a family member so he contacts another member of the family,Jeremy on the telephone to keep the incident "in-house". But we have to explain why this telephone call is interrupted suddenly,and how Nevill manages to make a further call to the Police.
I am not saying that Sheila has shot Ralph by the time he made the call to Jeremy, and or the police, or even when he activated the attack alarm which sent the police at Witham racing to the scene. I am pointing out that even if she had it would account for why there was no blood on the telephone...
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So you're saying that at this stage Sheila has shot Ralph(Nevill) once,he decides to try and conceal the fact that it's a family member so he contacts another member of the family,Jeremy on the telephone to keep the incident "in-house". But we have to explain why this telephone call is interrupted suddenly,and how Nevill manages to make a further call to the Police. If Sheila is standing over him with the gun at this stage and he puts the receiver down,then she gives him the severe beating with the rifle butt it would explain the blood in the telephone area but not where Nevill's body is eventually found.
However if it was Jeremy who came into the master bedroom after having shot the twins in theirs it's possible that Nevill is waiting for the intruder. Jeremy starts firing at Nevill and June,but runs out of ammunition and has to reload the gun. Nevill manages to get onto the landing and moves downstairs to attempt to use the telephone. Nevill is shot once more on the landing but manages to get into the kitchen as far as the kitchen worktop where he rests his bloodied hand,but by this time Jeremy is there and fires at him again. Nevill instinctively heads for the kitchen door where he is finally killed and bashed by Jeremy. In this scenario there is no telephone call. Then Jeremy goes back upstairs to finish off June,who by this stage has managed to drag herself to the door,where she dies with a gunshot between the eyes.
He then goes to Sheila,who as Pamela Boutflour said at 10pm the previous evening sounded like a zombie,and who would go to her death meekly not knowing anything about it.
But June wasn't heading towards the door, she was going the opposite way towards where Sheila was....this is so obvious...look at June's picture and stand her up..her killer was infront of her at the bottom of the bed...:)
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. But we have to explain why this telephone call is interrupted suddenly,and how Nevill manages to make a further call to the Police.
I think that Ralph very quickly interrupted the call to Jeremy because he may have become aware that Sheila might soon be coming downstairs, and he took the opportunity to make the call to the police, which resulted in Jeremy being unable to re-establish contact with Ralph and which produced the inevitable engaged tone when Jeremy tried to call back...
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It looks like her killer had been stood above her, june already on the floor wounded, then gets a shot between the eyes.
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If Sheila is standing over him with the gun at this stage and he puts the receiver down,then she gives him the severe beating with the rifle butt it would explain the blood in the telephone area but not where Nevill's body is eventually found.
I don't think it happened quite like that...
I am not happy with the suggestion that anybody battered Ralph with the butt of the rifle, I think injuries found on his body were made when he fell after being shot and those prts of his body struck blunt objects or surfaces (that's my explanation, anyway)...
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It looks like her killer had been stood above her, june already on the floor wounded, then gets a shot between the eyes.
No way is her killer stood above her and, shoots her where she falls near the door. Look at the blood spatter there is none at the door way. She was shot stood up, all the spatter went left of the bottom of the bed...there is no bleeding from that wound where her body lays....June has a wound to he shoulder and this marks the door as she fell backwards... :)
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I don't have the picture of June,nor Anne Eaton's statement if anybody has the link? At what point was the panic alarm activated and is there any official record of it?
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However if it was Jeremy who came into the master bedroom after having shot the twins in theirs it's possible that Nevill is waiting for the intruder. Jeremy starts firing at Nevill and June,but runs out of ammunition and has to reload the gun. Nevill manages to get onto the landing and moves downstairs to attempt to use the telephone. Nevill is shot once more on the landing but manages to get into the kitchen as far as the kitchen worktop where he rests his bloodied hand,but by this time Jeremy is there and fires at him again. Nevill instinctively heads for the kitchen door where he is finally killed and bashed by Jeremy. In this scenario there is no telephone call. Then Jeremy goes back upstairs to finish off June,who by this stage has managed to drag herself to the door,where she dies with a gunshot between the eyes.
But there was a telephone call to Jeremy's cottage, and the police, and somebody activated the attack alarm which sent the police at Witham police station (CA07) racing to the scene, updated about the call Jeremy had made to PC West, whilst CA07 were already en route to the scene...
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I think that Ralph very quickly interrupted the call to Jeremy because he may have become aware that Sheila might soon be coming downstairs, and he took the opportunity to make the call to the police, which resulted in Jeremy being unable to re-establish contact with Ralph and which produced the inevitable engaged tone when Jeremy tried to call back...
Yet Ralph(Nevill) the farmer doesn't avail himself of a gun from the den to protect his family.
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What photograph are you looking at?
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He then goes to Sheila,who as Pamela Boutflour said at 10pm the previous evening sounded like a zombie,and who would go to her death meekly not knowing anything about it.
She would not be acting like a zombie - she had not been taking her medication (anafranil), and was in an agitated mood when she was seen earlier in the day by an official who visited whf to take a reading from the electric meter. On that occasion, June Bamber told the official that Sheila had not been taking her medication and that she was not well...
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What photograph are you looking at?
The one of June, which I can't post. It is the full one that is graphic...:(
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Its not in the case related pictures, what thread is it on? i know which one you mean.
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She would not be acting like a zombie - she had not been taking her medication (anafranil), and was in an agitated mood when she was seen earlier in the day by an official who visited whf to take a reading from the electric meter. On that occasion, June Bamber told the official that Sheila had not been taking her medication and that she was not well...
So concerned was June about the state Sheila had got herself into that day, that June even cancelled her regular Tuesday evening bible class, because she feared for the safety of her grandchildren...
June later told her sister Pamela that Sheila had been behaving oddly all day (6rth August 1985)...
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No way is her killer stood above her and, shoots her where she falls near the door. Look at the blood spatter there is none at the door way. She was shot stood up, all the spatter went left of the bottom of the bed...there is no bleeding from that wound where her body lays....June has a wound to he shoulder and this marks the door as she fell backwards... :)
The problem here is we know the police treated the scene as an exercise [to blood] some 60 odd officers, so we will never know the position of the bodies prior to the photo's being taken. We are aware that the rifle was moved about Sheila's body, so maybe June, and Sheila were on the bed, and carted about during the police exercise.
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But what I don't understand is why would the Police stage manage the scene? I suppose the answer is that the Police (accidentally or otherwise) shot Sheila??????
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I don't have the picture of June,nor Anne Eaton's statement if anybody has the link? At what point was the panic alarm activated and is there any official record of it?
Steve AE's statement is in the archives, you need to read page 30 dated 1991. The full picture of June is not in the archives...Mike did post it on a thread somewhere...Yes There is a record regarding the alarm...not sure where it is. I have seen it, but it was a while ago. :)
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But what I don't understand is why would the Police stage manage the scene? I suppose the answer is that the Police (accidentally or otherwise) shot Sheila??????
That is correct - accidentally or otherwise...
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Its not in the case related pictures, what thread is it on? i know which one you mean.
I have no idea which thread it is on....sorry!
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The problem here is we know the police treated the scene as an exercise [to blood] some 60 odd officers, so we will never know the position of the bodies prior to the photo's being taken. We are aware that the rifle was moved about Sheila's body, so maybe June, and Sheila were on the bed, and carted about during the police exercise.
Hi Buddy
What time was this exercise done, do you know? Because if Sheila was shifted about, this could mean that any reside on her hands had dropped off....and if any copper had touched her hand during the movement of it...PC Adams says the bible was 14 to 16 inches away at the level of her wrist...but in the pics it was near her shoulder...He also says her head had was not in the same position either...:) :)
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But what I don't understand is why would the Police stage manage the scene? I suppose the answer is that the Police (accidentally or otherwise) shot Sheila??????
The second bullet to enter Sheila was a contact injury. I just don't see how this could have occurred with Sheila already having one bullet wound. There was also a reward of £1million offered by Jeremy Bamber's defence team for information proving his innocence and after 27 years since the incident one would think this would be claimed.
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Where is the EVIDENCE that some form of training exercise (involving upwards of 60 officers) took place at whf?
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1641.0.html
The pic of June is here, no way was she stood up when she was shot between the eyes.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1641.0.html
The pic of June is here, no way was she stood up when she was shot between the eyes.
And no way was she laid down either when that shot was delivered....look at it closely. When you get an head injury the blood from the head spurts out profousley, she could have been sat up, but she did not receive that shot laid down...sorry...of the spatter would be directly in front of her...and it isn't... :)
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1641.0.html
The pic of June is here, no way was she stood up when she was shot between the eyes.
If you are of a squeamish disposition I suggest that you do not click on the above link.
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Yes its quite graphic, steve. I should have warned of that.
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What I am trying to say is this. If June was running toward the door she would have either been shot in the back, if her killer was in the bedroom and she would have fell forward.
Or, if she was heading for the door and the killer shot her from the front, she would have fell backwards.
It is obvious her killer was facing her for she fell backwards towards the door...this means she was facing her killer at the left hand side of the bed...and not as suggested that she was heading out of the door...:)
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I only suggested that she waas on the floor when she was shot, she doesnt appear to have been stood up. The blood stain is low down on the door.
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The second bullet to enter Sheila was a contact injury. I just don't see how this could have occurred with Sheila already having one bullet wound. There was also a reward of £1million offered by Jeremy Bamber's defence team for information proving his innocence and after 27 years since the incident one would think this would be claimed.
I think I may have mentioned this before, but I will say it anyway. We are all aware that the rifle was moved about Sheila's body. Her hands are all wrong for a suicide. Now just imagine if you will that the police entered the bedroom and attempted to take the rifle from Sheila and there was an accidental discharge which was the second shot.
Why was there no fingerprints on the rifle, except SC, and JB? IMO the cops wiped the rifle to get rid of their prints when they tried to sieze the weapon and it accidently went off killing Sheila. How come there were no other fingerprints when we know the police moved the rifle around?
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I only suggested that she waas on the floor when she was shot, she doesnt appear to have been stood up. The blood stain is low down on the door.
Yes, the blood on the door is from her shoulder, which suggests that she fell towards the door and left a blood transfer on it....What I am saying is that she wasn't heading for the door, she was heading in the direction of her killer, which was at the left hand side of the bed, or the bottom of the bed...
If you look at her contact wound on her head, there is no bleed...or pool of blood from that injury, which tells you that was not the position she received her shot. Blood flies for yards from a head wound...and there is not a great deal of spatter directly infront of her.....:)
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But surely, if the police "wiped" the rifle, it wouldn't, upon examination, have contained any person's fingerprints?
How on earth do you selectively wipe away fingerprints from any article?
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There is also no blood running down her face, which suggests she wasnt stoodup, i believe she was on the floor either sat or laying down when she received the fatal shot between the eyes. We will have to agree to dosagree on that .
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But surely, if the police "wiped" the rifle, it wouldn't, upon examination, have contained any person's fingerprints?
How on earth do you selectively wipe away fingerprints from any article?
Good pont, Jim.
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There is also no blood running down her face, which suggests she wasnt stoodup, i believe she was on the floor either sat or laying down when she received the fatal shot between the eyes. We will have to agree to dosagree on that .
Andrea there is not blood at all...what does that suggest to you...none running down her face and none running where she lay on the floor...think about it...when does one stop bleeding?
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I think I may have mentioned this before, but I will say it anyway. We are all aware that the rifle was moved about Sheila's body. Her hands are all wrong for a suicide. Now just imagine if you will that the police entered the bedroom and attempted to take the rifle from Sheila and there was an accidental discharge which was the second shot.
Why was there no fingerprints on the rifle, except SC, and JB? IMO the cops wiped the rifle to get rid of their prints when they tried to sieze the weapon and it accidently went off killing Sheila. How come there were no other fingerprints when we know the police moved the rifle around?
Wouldn't the Police under those circumstances just admit that Sheila had shot herself as they approached her?
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Andrea there is not blood at all...what does that suggest to you...none running down her face and none running where she lay on the floor...think about it...when does one stop bleeding?
There is none down her face , That is plain. but you cant say for sure that there is none running down the side of her face/head, the picture quality is too poor. She would have bled from that wound and has, the picture quality is just too poor to show it.
Im sticking with she was on the floor when shot between the eyes by jb. ;D
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Wouldn't the Police under those circumstances just admit that Sheila had shot herself as they approached her?
of course they would if true and why would every Police officer involved (and there was many) risk losing their job and freedom by perverting the course of justice, when there was no need to if just a suicide!!
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Andrea there is not blood at all...what does that suggest to you...none running down her face and none running where she lay on the floor...think about it...when does one stop bleeding?
Patti one stops bleeding when one is dead xx
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Patti one stops bleeding when one is dead xx
i think you find they don't...
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Hallo, Ben :D
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Patti one stops bleeding when one is dead xx
remember she wasn't dead till after the second shot also...
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Hallo, Ben :D
Howdy. :D
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i think you find they don't...
I think you'll find that once the blood stops circulating that people do not bleed. The factt is poor June mayy already have been dead
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remember she wasn't dead till after the second shot also...
Do you mean, Sheila? ben.
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But surely, if the police "wiped" the rifle, it wouldn't, upon examination, have contained any person's fingerprints?
How on earth do you selectively wipe away fingerprints from any article?
OK...
In the stage managed photographs which PC Bird took of Sheila on the bedroom floor, her hand is clearly positioned, placed upon the rifle around the trigger mechanism, yet no fiongeroprints were found to be present on that part of the gun where her right hand was clearly resting, so how do you explain that / this? I will tell you for why, no attempt was made to fingerprint that part of the rifle because a police officer was handling it at the time Sheila got shot under the chin by use of it...
Now please explain to me how her fingerprints could not be found on this part of the rifle if her hands were resting upon it at different times and in different positions depending upon the stage when photographs showing this were taken?
(1) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4304;image
(2) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18722;image
(3) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4306;image
(4) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4307;image
(5) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18730;image
(6) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4457;image
(7) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4459;image
(8) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4992;image
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But the police surley wouldnt have handled the rifle by the trigger?
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But the police surley wouldnt have handled the rifle by the trigger?
Oh, but they did - and that was why they never fingerprinted the trigger itself...
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it looks like a DLR picture of Sheila with the rifle, i picked that term up in my early days.
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The other thing is that because Sheila's hands were photographed on that part of the rifle, to be pondered is why tests were not done in the form of swabs to check that part of the rifle to see if adequate traces of lead deposit could be detected or found, including a swab taken from the trigger itself?
None were done, because police were satisfied that they were dealing with a case of four murders and a suicide...
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it looks like a DLR picture of Sheila with the rifle, i picked that term up in my early days.
DLR?
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The other thing is that because Sheila's hands were photographed on that part of the rifle, to be pondered is why tests were not done in the form of swabs to check that part of the rifle to see if adequate traces of lead deposit could be detected or found, including a swab taken from the trigger itself?
None were done, because police were satisfied that they were dealing with a case of four murders and a suicide...
Didn't the Police doctor erroneously spot only one bullet would on Sheila,thus making the suicide theory more likely.
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DLR?
dont look right
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Didn't the Police doctor erroneously spot only one bullet would on Sheila,thus making the suicide theory more likely.
Police surgeon, Dr Craig, said that at that time Sheila had what appeared to be a solitary wound to her neck, and this description was acknowledged by PI "Bob" Miller, who later reinforced that view at the opening of the inquest on 14th August 1985, when he told Deputy Coroner, Mr Thompkin, that the police were satisfied that Sheila had killed the others, and that she had taken her own life by way of a solitary wound beneath the chin...