Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on May 24, 2012, 10:49:PM
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Letter contents written by Colin Caffell to Ralph Bamber sparks off shootings
The jury were not made aware of the contents of a letter addressed to Ralph Bamber written by the father of the two child victims (Daniel and Nicholas) Colin Caffell. But police seized it from the scene, and although the police have not officially confirmed that Sheila's fingerprints were found upon its pages inside whf, it is understood that she found it and read its contents before going on her killing spree...
Read the contents here:-
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Several things come to mind, one, that is an incredibly sad letter for anybody to have to write (and being a dad I would fine it very distressing) two, we have strong confirmation there of June's influence on the family which is worrying, three, could this have been what was in the Bible that is next to Sheila in the photo ( I thought i had seen the word love on that scrap of paper but looking at CCs writig it cold have been 'have') and four, it brings me back to a point that has been ignored numerous times when I've made it about the pictures drawn by the two boys which i find very disturbing and seem to depict negative and demonic images of women and should surely have been a warning to somebody that something was seriously wrong with the women in the lives of the twins.
But a very interesting post Mike, thanks, others may have seen this before but it is new to me
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A very moving and heartfelt letter, showing a fathers concern over the welfare of his dear children. Mike I am so pleased you have shared this tonight, it strengthens my own feelings greatly. It also shows that Shelia was going through an enormous confused stage in her life. Colin say in his book he did not want the children to go the WHF that day......I dare bet he punishes himself over and over again....How very sad...:(
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Several things come to mind, one, that is an incredibly sad letter for anybody to have to write (and being a dad I would fine it very distressing) two, we have strong confirmation there of June's influence on the family which is worrying, three, could this have been what was in the Bible that is next to Sheila in the photo ( I thought i had seen the word love on that scrap of paper but looking at CCs writig it cold have been 'have') and four, it brings me back to a point that has been ignored numerous times when I've made it about the pictures drawn by the two boys which i find very disturbing and seem to depict negative and demonic images of women and should surely have been a warning to somebody that something was seriously wrong with the women in the lives of the twins.
But a very interesting post Mike, thanks, others may have seen this before but it is new to me
I am posting new material over the coming days, not seen before which could shed more light on what took place and why...
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A very moving and heartfelt letter, showing a fathers concern over the welfare of his dear children. Mike I am so pleased you have shared this tonight, it strengthens my own feelings greatly. It also shows that Shelia was going through an enormous confused stage in her life. Colin say in his book he did not want the children to go the WHF that day......I dare bet he punishes himself over and over again....How very sad...:(
I will be posting new material not yet seen before over the coming days which you should also find very interesting...
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A very moving and heartfelt letter, showing a fathers concern over the welfare of his dear children. Mike I am so pleased you have shared this tonight, it strengthens my own feelings greatly. It also shows that Shelia was going through an enormous confused stage in her life. Colin say in his book he did not want the children to go the WHF that day......I dare bet he punishes himself over and over again....How very sad...:(
The picture of the sculptue in his book gave me a cold chill Patti, I found that very sad indeed, I really felt for him, I couldn't possibly imagine anything happening to my son and how I would be.
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I will be posting new material not yet seen before over the coming days which you should also find very interesting...
Is this stuff you got hold of today while visiting essex?
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A very moving and heartfelt letter, showing a fathers concern over the welfare of his dear children. Mike I am so pleased you have shared this tonight, it strengthens my own feelings greatly. It also shows that Shelia was going through an enormous confused stage in her life. Colin say in his book he did not want the children to go the WHF that day......I dare bet he punishes himself over and over again....How very sad...:(
The picture of the sculptue in his book gave me a cold chill Patti, I found that very sad indeed, I really felt for him, I couldn't possibly imagine anything happening to my son and how I would be.
Hi AJ I know....it doesn't bare thinking about....don't go there eh? :)
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I will be posting new material not yet seen before over the coming days which you should also find very interesting...
Cheers Mike, I do hope you haven't been pressured into this.....:)
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I have not been pressured into anything, I am moving into a new phase where I will be posting new material and not taking part in any discussion or debate. I have been planning to do this for some time, and that point is not very far away...
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Maybe you could share with the forum when this letter was sent.
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Maybe you could share with the forum when this letter was sent.
Hi Vic it says on the letter between 1984/85.... :)
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Maybe you could share with the forum when this letter was sent.
After Sheila was discharged from hospital and prior to the shootings I should think, because Colin refers to looking after the children etc...
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A sad post in a way but nothing is gained by hiding behind doors , does anyone wonder why June was shot between the eyes ? because i do not.
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I don't believe it was ever sent patti. If I'm wrong then I apologise now, but I believe this is the unsent letter (which I've seen before) and if I'm right, and not sent, it could not have influenced the shootings as described in the thread title.
Another point. Jeremy said that they discussed the fostering of the children on the night of the murders, Jeremy pushing this as a possible motive for Sheila's violent reaction.
It is quite clear from this letter that Colin very much was in control of the children and would simply have stopped them from being fostered.
For me, it is a clear indication that the alleged discussion the night before the murders didn't happen.
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After Sheila was discharged from hospital and prior to the shootings I should think, because Colin refers to looking after the children etc...
So you wrote the thread title without knowing when the letter was sent?
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I don't believe it was ever sent patti. If I'm wrong then I apologise now, but I believe this is the unsent letter (which I've seen before) and if I'm right, and not sent, it could not have influenced the shootings as described in the thread title.
Another point. Jeremy said that they discussed the fostering of the children on the night of the murders, Jeremy pushing this as a possible motive for Sheila's violent reaction.
It is quite clear from this letter that Colin very much was in control of the children and would simply have stopped them from being fostered.
For me, it is a clear indication that the alleged discussion the night before the murders didn't happen.
Im not so sure, at any point were the boys given a choice to sit and pray at the foot of the bed with June , the letter mentions this does it not ?
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Sorry Mertol, I don't get your point.
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I too like patti have a hardback copy of colins book, this issue is there in the letter about the forced praying.
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According to Scott lomax, this letter was never sent.
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So, how could an unsent letter 'spark off the shootings' mike?
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Mike
Thank you for posting the letter.
On a first read and in my opinion, the letter as posted would be regarded as evidence that contradicts Jeremy's alleged claims that Nevill and June Bamber were actively discussing the possiblity of making arrangements for Sheila to have the twins fostered. Such discussions being the trigger for Sheila to turn violent and use the gun Jeremy had not secured safely after Jeremy had been outside to try and shoot some rabbits.
If Nevill had received such a letter from Colin such discussions, as alleged by Jeremy, with Sheila whilst involving June but not including Colin would only serve to alienate Colin from Nevill. In my opinion, it is also clear from the letter, as posted, Colin regards Nevill as a potential ally in resolving a matter that had been affecting his two young boys. As such, I would very much doubt Nevill would want to alienate Colin as Colin's letter appears to be very reasonable in terms of it being a request for help to a man who has earnt Colin's confidence.
In my opinion, the letter does not support and is inconsistent with the case of the defence.
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CC says the children are 5 years old in the letter. Given the fact they were 6 in June 1985....and the letter is not dated, it had to have been written between June 1984 to June 1985. :) :) :) :)
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Mike
Thank you for posting the letter.
On a first read and in my opinion, the letter as posted would be regarded as evidence that contradicts Jeremy's alleged claims that Nevill and June Bamber were actively discussing the possiblity of making arrangements for Sheila to have the twins fostered. Such discussions being the trigger for Sheila to turn violent and use the gun Jeremy had not secured safely after Jeremy had been outside to try and shoot some rabbits.
If Nevill had received such a letter from Colin such discussions, as alleged by Jeremy, with Sheila whilst involving June but not including Colin would only serve to alienate Colin from Nevill. In my opinion, it is also clear from the letter, as posted, Colin regards Nevill as a potential ally in resolving a matter that had been affecting his two young boys. As such, I would very much doubt Nevill would want to alienate Colin as Colin's letter appears to be very reasonable in terms of it being a request for help to a man who has earnt Colin's confidence.
In my opinion, the letter does not support and is inconsistent with the case of the defence.
Absolutely.
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Mike
Thank you for posting the letter.
On a first read and in my opinion, the letter as posted would be regarded as evidence that contradicts Jeremy's alleged claims that Nevill and June Bamber were actively discussing the possiblity of making arrangements for Sheila to have the twins fostered. Such discussions being the trigger for Sheila to turn violent and use the gun Jeremy had not secured safely after Jeremy had been outside to try and shoot some rabbits.
If Nevill had received such a letter from Colin such discussions, as alleged by Jeremy, with Sheila whilst involving June but not including Colin would only serve to alienate Colin from Nevill. In my opinion, it is also clear from the letter, as posted, Colin regards Nevill as a potential ally in resolving a matter that had been affecting his two young boys. As such, I would very much doubt Nevill would want to alienate Colin as Colin's letter appears to be very reasonable in terms of it being a request for help to a man who has earnt Colin's confidence.
In my opinion, the letter does not support and is inconsistent with the case of the defence.
Hi Curious. The twins had been in foster care before. I agree we do not know the conversation that happened that night, all we have is what Jeremy tells us and that is that her mother had wanted SC to come and live closer to them and take a job at the caravan site.....and during that time the children could be in foster care.....If you read all of what Jeremy says that is what they were implying....I might be wrong, but you can certainly challenge me on it. JB goes on to say that his mother said she might be better off living at JB's cottage....I doubt if Jeremy would have liked that after spending all that cash on his home over the past year.....and I dare bet Sheila who hated the place would wish to give up her independence.
There were issues about the gal Curious, you can't run from that....poor poor woman was confused...the teachers had raised concerns, Colin had raised concerns, Colins mum had raised concerns and Freddie had raised concerns.....In the end, the children lived with Colin...they were happy....Unfortunately Sheila was not, she was in her own world.
Whoever committed these crimes Curious, was very sick indeed.....:)
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Very, very sad.
Is the test done? :) :) :)
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Somebody close to the Bambers has backed up Jeremys claim that fostering was indeed being discussed by the family.Im not prepared to say who as Jeremy may decide to use this information in the future.
Since June and Nevill were discussing Sheila going to stay away somewhere to help her get better,then it is very possible that the Bambers were thinking of bringing the twins down to Essex so that they could retain contact with them.Its obvious that Colin would have not allowed this but that wouldnt necessarily have stopped the Bambers discussing it?
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So, how could an unsent letter 'spark off the shootings' mike?
So how and why has this letter been used in your opinion? Is it something cc gave to the police for example, or taken from a property that wasn't the the farm
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Hi tyler the fact that the twins lived with their Father would this fostering suggestion affected Sheila so badly maybe from the point of it stirred up feelings about her own adoption and I seem to think I read she was fostered for a short time herself during June,s illness.
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Hi Patti can you give me some information on the letter you are talking about must have missed it again good thing I don,t travel by bus :) :) :)
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Hi mertoll I think we have discussed this forced praying before and the fact the twins I assume did not stay too often with their Grannie I don,t think it would have had such an adverse effect on them.
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Mertoll it is like an execution style killing :'(
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Morning egap1 I think you could be right the effect on Sheila after meeting her birth mother could have had an adverse effect :( on her. We just don,t know what was going on in her mind. Her own Mother gave her up for adoption and as you said perhaps the thought of loosing custody of her twins she would have felt she too had failed as a Mother. :(
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So anyway... since this letter was never sent I guess this is just another inaccurate thread title..
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Absolutely! In debate this morning that's 2 already!!
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It's a bit like buses, isn't it?
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The children should have been of paramount importance here,and they weren't.
Nothing changes.Even today children slip through the net of social workers.
There should have been a court order in place to have kept the children in foster care,until such times that their home life was free from emotional abuse. They couldn't have been on an " at risk " register,or they could possibly have still been alive today.
The school teacher should have contacted social services if she'd have had doubts about the twin's welfare. Also the GP should have played a larger part in their welfare than he did.
How sad and desperate Colin must have felt.Whether he sent the letter or not,he wrote his feelings,,,,,,he was pleading,and probably banging his head against a brick wall. Poor man.
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The children should have been of paramount importance here,and they weren't.
Nothing changes.Even today children slip through the net of social workers.
There should have been a court order in place to have kept the children in foster care,until such times that their home life was free from emotional abuse. They couldn't have been on an " at risk " register,or they could possibly have still been alive today.
The school teacher should have contacted social services if she'd have had doubts about the twin's welfare. Also the GP should have played a larger part in their welfare than he did.
How sad and desperate Colin must have felt.Whether he sent the letter or not,he wrote his feelings,,,,,,he was pleading,and probably banging his head against a brick wall. Poor man.
They had a perfectly good father, why would they need to have been placed in foster care?
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I don't believe it was ever sent patti. If I'm wrong then I apologise now, but I believe this is the unsent letter (which I've seen before) and if I'm right, and not sent, it could not have influenced the shootings as described in the thread title.
Another point. Jeremy said that they discussed the fostering of the children on the night of the murders, Jeremy pushing this as a possible motive for Sheila's violent reaction.
It is quite clear from this letter that Colin very much was in control of the children and would simply have stopped them from being fostered.
For me, it is a clear indication that the alleged discussion the night before the murders didn't happen.
That's assuming he had time and means to look after them, if he had either why didn't he start proceedings to do just that?...with fostering he would still have had access to them and they would also be receiving any support they would need for the problems they already had, maybe something he had no experience of?
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They were living with him.
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Because father's/single parents usually have to go to work anyway. Then there'd be the constant disharmony between Colin and Sheila as to who has the children during week-ends,holidays,etc,,,with the knowledge that Colin already had about Sheila's unpredictable " behaviour ".
Well,I must say,it wasn't such a good idea taking them for that last weekend at WHF.
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Because father's/single parents usually have to go to work anyway. Then there'd be the constant disharmony between Colin and Sheila as to who has the children during week-ends,holidays,etc,,,with the knowledge that Colin already had about Sheila's unpredictable " behaviour ".
Well,I must say,it wasn't such a good idea taking them for that last weekend at WHF.
That's incredibly harsh.
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Because father's/single parents usually have to go to work anyway. Then there'd be the constant disharmony between Colin and Sheila as to who has the children during week-ends,holidays,etc,,,with the knowledge that Colin already had about Sheila's unpredictable " behaviour ".
Well,I must say,it wasn't such a good idea taking them for that last weekend at WHF.
I'm sure there will be more than a few single parents who will feel insulted by the suggestion that because they have to work their children would be better off in foster care.
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sorry vidvic I seem to have lost the thread who was living with him?
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I'm sure there will be more than a few single parents who will feel insulted by the suggestion that because they have to work their children would be better off in foster care.
many children are better off in foster care the recent case of a boy living in a coal bunker is unaceptable the current year is 2012 not 1912, would you describe the parents of this boy as good loving parents ?
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Harsh it may be,but I was trying to get my point across about the importance of all children in general who are living in such a situation. Though sadly,it's not always such families who are under suspicion,,,,,but who end up being killed by either parent. We read about such cases quite regularly,unfortunately,as emotional abuse doesn't always show like bumps and bruises do.
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sorry vidvic I seem to have lost the thread who was living with him?
The children. The twins. They were living with Colin, not Sheila. Colin had support from his family too. As I have suggested before, any talk of fostering was not the bamber's call to make.
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many children are better off in foster care the recent case of a boy living in a coal bunker is unaceptable the current year is 2012 not 1912, would you describe the parents of this boy as good loving parents ?
Would you describe that as a typical example of single parenting?
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Vidvic,,,,,Sheila would still have had rights to have seen the twins,even though they were with their father.
Who knows what would/could have happened in their future.? No matter who they lived with. As Colin stated,their granny wasn't a " full shilling " with her bible preachings to the twins.
Pillar to post isn't a good start to any child's life. It was by no means ideal.
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Vidvic,,,,,Sheila would still have had rights to have seen the twins,even though they were with their father.
Who knows what would/could have happened in their future.? No matter who they lived with. As Colin stated,their granny wasn't a " full shilling " with her bible preachings to the twins.
Pillar to post isn't a good start to any child's life. It was by no means ideal.
But Colin was in control of the situation not Sheila or the bamber's, that is the point. Of course Sheila had access, hence their tragic visit to the farm and hence his proposed letter to Nevill.
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Thanks for that vidvic I am sure Colin was a good and loving Father to the twins and he would have been capable of bringing them up can,t see the relevance of this fostering unless it just agitated Sheila I read she wanted to get back with Colin and become a family again.
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Thanks for that vidvic I am sure Colin was a good and loving Father to the twins and he would have been capable of bringing them up can,t see the relevance of this fostering unless it just agitated Sheila I read she wanted to get back with Colin and become a family again.
Am trying to provide the context with which bamber's version of that nights events, seems improbable.
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The fostering conversation would have been a " stop-gap " to give Colin a breather,,,or why else did they go in the first place.? It's a last resort before the children can be looked after by any other family member.
Where was Colin when the children were taken.? I'd have thought he'd have moved Heaven and Earth before anyone would have taken them.
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The fostering conversation would have been a " stop-gap " to give Colin a breather,,,or why else did they go in the first place.? It's a last resort before the children can be looked after by any other family member.
Where was Colin when the children were taken.? I'd have thought he'd have moved Heaven and Earth before anyone would have taken them.
The children were never taken anywhere. Sheila had day care support but she still struggled to cope and was then hospitalised. This is when Colin took control.
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The fostering conversation would have been a " stop-gap " to give Colin a breather,,,or why else did they go in the first place.? It's a last resort before the children can be looked after by any other family member.
Where was Colin when the children were taken.? I'd have thought he'd have moved Heaven and Earth before anyone would have taken them.
I'm not sure what you are asking. It's my understanding that the children were never 'taken', they did spend part days with foster carers, who might be better described as baby sitters. I've never been able to find much about that.
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Can I add this to my myth list? That the children were taken away from Sheila?
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Am trying to provide the context with which bamber's version of that nights events, seems improbable.
There were discussions by Nevill and June about fostering the twins. I accept that this is something which would have been strongly resisted by Colin and he would probably have been able to prevent it. This nevertheless was something being actively considered by Nevill and June. They favoured the twins being fostered locally with Sheila also living locally. It should be remembered that although Colin had some respect for Nevill he certainly did not have any for June. In fact his opinion of her could be described as close to loathing, and the fellings was I suspect mutual. Colin was clearly not held in high regard, I suspect for several reasons.
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There were discussions by Nevill and June about fostering the twins. I accept that this is something which would have been strongly resisted by Colin and he would probably have been able to prevent it. This nevertheless was something being actively considered by Nevill and June. They favoured the twins being fostered locally with Sheila also living locally. It should be remembered that although Colin had some respect for Nevill he certainly did not have any for June. In fact his opinion of her could be described as close to loathing, and the fellings was I suspect mutual. Colin was clearly not held in high regard, I suspect for several reasons.
How do you know?
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There were discussions by Nevill and June about fostering the twins. I accept that this is something which would have been strongly resisted by Colin and he would probably have been able to prevent it. This nevertheless was something being actively considered by Nevill and June. They favoured the twins being fostered locally with Sheila also living locally. It should be remembered that although Colin had some respect for Nevill he certainly did not have any for June. In fact his opinion of her could be described as close to loathing, and the fellings was I suspect mutual. Colin was clearly not held in high regard, I suspect for several reasons.
According to Colin's mother's statement June at least was against the idea of fostering.
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How do you know?
I posted on this a while back Vic. A witness has recently confirmed that such discussions did take place. This person is a credible witness with no axe to grind (the witness in fact believes JB is guilty). The witness did provide witness statements for the trial but appears never to have been asked about this until recently.
My information about the relationship between Colin and Nevill and June is taken from Colin's book.
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I posted on this a while back Vic. A witness has recently confirmed that such discussions did take place. This person is a credible witness with no axe to grind (the witness in fact believes JB is guilty). The witness did provide witness statements for the trial but appears never to have been asked about this until recently.
My information about the relationship between Colin and Nevill and June is taken from Colin's book.
Fostering ( suggesting over night stays ) or day care support ( mothers help ) ?
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Fostering ( suggesting over night stays ) or day care support ( mothers help ) ?
I was told fostering.
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I was told fostering.
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Isn't that a masterful piece of fence sitting Neil?
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I was told fostering.
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Isn't that a masterful piece of fence sitting Neil?
Why Vic? I did not speak to the witness myself so can only report what I have been told. I do trust the source of my information.
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Why Vic? I did not speak to the witness myself so can only report what I have been told. I do trust the source of my information.
Do you see why it's an important distinction though Neil? I'm slightly surprised you didn't ask that question yourself.
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Foster carers aren't babysitters. They are a legal requirement ordered by social sevices where there is doubt about the welfare of children. It's not a babysitting service.
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Do you see why it's an important distinction though Neil? I'm slightly surprised you didn't ask that question yourself.
I did not see the need to ask the question as fostering was the word used. If the suggestion had been that some child care support was being contemplated it would have had no significance to the case. This was reported to me as a significant new piece of evidence (albeit peripheral to the main issues in the case) and I believe the person who conveyed this information understood the significance.
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Foster carers aren't babysitters. They are a legal requirement ordered by social sevices where there is doubt about the welfare of children. It's not a babysitting service.
As in this case, the carer was approached seemingly by the bamber's, then that is exactly my point. When I'm working I sometimes need help to look after my children, in Sheila's case she needed help to cope with her children on a day to day basis, meaning she could spend more time with her children. This is not foster care. My point completely.
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I'm sure there will be more than a few single parents who will feel insulted by the suggestion that because they have to work their children would be better off in foster care.
Those children had problems though, as stated in his letter. I'm sure they probably needed stability away from the obvious problems the parents had.
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Isn't the main issue around how Sheila would perceive the suggestion of such help, given her state of mind? What any rational person might think, no matter which side of the divide they are on is surely irrelevant?
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Those children had problems though, as stated in his letter. I'm sure they probably needed stability away from the obvious problems the parents had.
What problems did Colin have? There's a lot of people seemingly more than happy to surrender children on the forum.
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Of course they had problems,Lonny. Pretty bad emotional ones,,,whereby if their school teacher had intervened at the appropriate times of their visible difficulties,a lot more could,or should have been done.
The school teachers are usually the first to spot any changes,etc which appear concerning children,then it's up to them to contact social services of any concern,so it would have been through social services that the children were placed in foster care.
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Isn't the main issue around how Sheila would perceive the suggestion of such help, given her state of mind? What any rational person might think, no matter which side of the divide they are on is surely irrelevant?
You could use this argument to explain Sheila's alleged rampage about any subject then, if she had no rational thought?
Roch, when she was at WHF she had help with the children already. If it is a mothers help being approached then this was no different from before. And I simply do not believe that the bamber's would ever have contemplated voluntarily placing them in care, nor had they any right to.
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Rochford,,,Sheila was in no fit state to discuss the welfare of the children.This is why there had to be the intervention of the social sevices. Sheila should have been properly dealt with by those concerned in her health. To my mind,the children should have been the priority in this case,not Sheila,Colin or the Bambers.
This was a job for the authorities concerned in child care.
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Of course they had problems,Lonny. Pretty bad emotional ones,,,whereby if their school teacher had intervened at the appropriate times of their visible difficulties,a lot more could,or should have been done.
The school teachers are usually the first to spot any changes,etc which appear concerning children,then it's up to them to contact social services of any concern,so it would have been through social services that the children were placed in foster care.
At the time the children were having problems they were living with Sheila. When they went to live with Colin they settled down and their school work improved. Are you suggesting that that should be ignored, and they should have been placed in care anyway?
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As a precautionary measure,children are placed in care until such times as a member/s of the family are assessed and proved to be able to look after the children,,,which,for all we know,is what happened in Colin's case. We don't know the full history,do we.?
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You could use this argument to explain Sheila's alleged rampage about any subject then, if she had no rational thought?
Roch, when she was at WHF she had help with the children already. If it is a mothers help being approached then this was no different from before. And I simply do not believe that the bamber's would ever have contemplated voluntarily placing them in care, nor had they any right to.
I believe there were (three or four?) witness statements of foster carers, not child minders, recorded in the list of statements that Mike recently posted here.
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At the time the children were having problems they were living with Sheila. When they went to live with Colin they settled down and their school work improved. Are you suggesting that that should be ignored, and they should have been placed in care anyway?
I think your'e moving the goal posts bridget. Those boys must have been deeply affected by their experience of living with a schizophrenic mother. The dissasociation, and withdrawn world she lived in must have been very frightening for them. I would suggest the whole family should have been deeply concerned about what was happening. The fact is, as well, Sheila may not have been listening to whatever the conversation was, she lived inside herself, apparently Jeremy said she wasn't taking part in the conversation, was not invoved. Schizophrenics become very withdrawen before a pschotic episode.
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There probably are such statements,Chochok,as with all government involvements,they have to be documented.
The process is either voluntary,or via a court order,so it must have been a voluntary decision,whereby there still has to be a signature when the children are handed over.
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I think your'e moving the goal posts bridget.
No I'm not, I'm reading exactly what the letter says, instead of guessing what may or may not have been happening in the surrounding circumstances.
Those boys must have been deeply affected by their experience of living with a schizophrenic mother. The dissasociation, and withdrawn world she lived in must have been very frightening for those little boys. I would suggest the whole family should have been deeply concerned about what was happening.
Maybe they were, but have you ever seen any criticism of Colin's care of the boys?
The fact is as well that Sheila may not have been listening to whatever the conversation was, she lived inside herself, apparently Jeremy said she wasn't taking part in the conversation, ws not invoved. Schizophrenics become very withdrawen before a pschotic episode.
Then it's unlikely that any such conversation would have sparked anything off.
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I believe there were (three or four?) witness statements of foster carers, not child minders, recorded in the list of statements that Mike recently posted here.
I believe your'e right keira. I definitely remember seeing statements of foster carers. After all however, the antis dress it up Sheila was a very sick young woman.
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There probably are such statements,Chochok,as with all government involvements,they have to be documented.
The process is either voluntary,or via a court order,so it must have been a voluntary decision,whereby there still has to be a signature when the children are handed over.
The children were never handed over.
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I believe there were (three or four?) witness statements of foster carers, not child minders, recorded in the list of statements that Mike recently posted here.
Be nice to see them.
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Bridget
The conversation could have been a coincidence, whether Sheila heard it or not doesn't mean she wasn't responsoble for the ensuing tragedy. If she was extremely withdrawn that in itself is a sign of a psychotic episode occurring very soon. I haven't seen anything adverse about colin's fathering. I am not accusing anyone I am just stating that any family, I'm sure, would have been very perturbed about the boys situation and no doubt, many conversations took place. After all June and neville loved those boys therefore would want what they saw as the best for them
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Bridget
The conversation could have been a coincidence, whether Sheila heard it or not doesn't mean she wasn't responsoble for the ensuing tragedy. If she was extremely withdrawn that in itself is a sign of a psychotic episode occurring very soon. I haven't seen anything adverse about colin's fathering. I am not accusing anyone I am just stating that any family, I'm sure, would have been very perturbed about the boys situation and no doubt, many conversations took place. After all June and neville loved those boys therefore would want what they saw as the best for them
Now who's moving the goal posts lol :)
In her statement Colin's mother said that June had been concerned that the boys may be put in foster homes because of Sheila's illness, and that she was obviously against it.
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Now who's moving the goal posts lol :)
In her statement Colin's mother said that June had been concerned that the boys may be put in foster homes because of Sheila's illness, and that she was obviously against it.
Sorry Bridget, will answer later, have to go out, am late.
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I believe there were (three or four?) witness statements of foster carers, not child minders, recorded in the list of statements that Mike recently posted here.
Yes, day foster carers, as Vic has already said.
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Before this case, I didn't realise that such a thing existed. I alway took foster care to mean semi permanent home. All I'm trying to do is show that in this case 'foster' care isn't what some people might think it suggests.
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From what I remember reading about the social sevices regarding the twins,was that " they were satisfied that they weren't in any danger " ( famous last words ) ,so therefore crossing them off the register.
Look what happened to Baby P and those like him where the parents either don't answer the calls,or they ignore any danger signals.
I would have had eyes in the back of my head with a woman like Sheila around,even though she held no responsibility for her illness,they have to be watched closely. Missing medication is a danger signal in schizophrenics. I know,,,,,,,I've worked with them.
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You could use this argument to explain Sheila's alleged rampage about any subject then, if she had no rational thought?
Roch, when she was at WHF she had help with the children already. If it is a mothers help being approached then this was no different from before. And I simply do not believe that the bamber's would ever have contemplated voluntarily placing them in care, nor had they any right to.
Vic, I don't follow you on your first point. What we need to do is look at exactly what was said by Jeremy Bamber on this. What is his exact quote in his statement re the alleged conversation?
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The fact that June mentioned the fostering of the children to Colin's mother proves that it was something she was thinking might happen. although she was against the idea. The conversation that evening may have revolved around trying to get Sheila to make more effort with the boys otherwise they might end up being fostered. More like a warning or, to Sheila, a threat.
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ngb1066 say that the Bambers had little regard for Colin Caffell and I'm inclined to agree. I feel he was not, nor ever had been, fully accepted as one of "us." I sense that it may have suited them to have greater control of their grandchildrens' lives, encouraging them towards their lifestyle, gradually weaning them away from their father. Was he an aetheist? Just an after thought. As to any legal rights Colin had regarding the twins, Neville was a magistrate and I imagine he would be fairly confident that Social Workers wouldn't be breathing down his neck for trying to provide a stable lifestyle for his only grandchildren.
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Having looked at the letter again. Colin says that Sheila had just come out of hospital and that the twins were 5 years old.
So this must mean the letter was written in June 1985, for the last time Sheila was in hospital was 1983 which would mean the twins would have been much younger.... :) :) :) :)
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Evening Patti, Sheila was last in hospital around the spring of 85. It's in Dr F's stats:
June 1959
June 1981
Sheila 1983
Sheila 1985
Hi egap, thank you...so the letter must have been written in June 1985...Have you done the experiment? :) :) :) :) :)
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Hi Vidic
I hope you don't think this is too harsh, but my view is that when June was admitted to a psychiatric hospital in 1959 to treat severe depression requiring ect caused by her decision to adopt Sheila in 1958, the authorities should have intervened and removed Sheila. Sheila should then have been placed with another adoptive family with a proven track record. The Bambers should have been prevented from adopting any futher children.
Egap1.I dont think that Junes depression a year after adopting Sheila was due to the adoption.It was around that time that June had tests carried out on why she could not conceive and was found to have a growth on her ovary.She was told that she would never be able to have natural children.I believe it was this news that was the cause of her severe depression.
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What everyone seems to have forgotten,on this thread,is that Jeremy never said that fostering was being discussed necessarily in the context of full time.He just said that it was being discussed.
And no matter how much we all think that Colin seems a lovely man and was a great father,the reality was that June did not agree.She believed that he was taking drugs (albeit smoking dope) and would also have been aware that Colin would have to work.
It may not have actually been talk of fostering that triggered Sheila that fateful evening (if that is indeed what happened).It may have been that June and Nevill were insisting that Sheila return to Essex where they would be in a better position to help her,and Sheila may have not taken kindly to her last piece of independance being taken away.It was no secret that she hated the country lifestyle,which is why she chose to live in London.
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Hi Vidic
I hope you don't think this is too harsh, but my view is that when June was admitted to a psychiatric hospital in 1959 to treat severe depression requiring ect caused by her decision to adopt Sheila in 1958, the authorities should have intervened and removed Sheila. Sheila should then have been placed with another adoptive family with a proven track record. The Bambers should have been prevented from adopting any futher children.
This is part of the point I was trying to make. The Bambers were, socially, very well placed and maybe it was this fact that made it possible for them to slip through nets which those less well placed could not. Which authority, in those days, would have removed children from a couple of such high social standing? Blind eyes being turned?
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Morning April1
Spot on. I'm in the process of to taking this up with various bods in the adoption world. Rest assured it will be pursued vigorously!
Hi, egap1, morning to you, too, and should you need anyone elses' input, or if I can help in any way........
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What everyone seems to have forgotten,on this thread,is that Jeremy never said that fostering was being discussed necessarily in the context of full time.He just said that it was being discussed.
Exactomundo. This in my opinion is a very important point.
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Exactomundo. This in my opinion is a very important point.
Yes Roach.....he also said he wasn't really listening but was in the laundry room eating something. He did comment that Sheila wasn't responding when he was there. There 's no guarantee that she was listening at all but may have been more interested in her own head, she was extremely withdrawn at that time apparently so I have read.
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What everyone seems to have forgotten,on this thread,is that Jeremy never said that fostering was being discussed necessarily in the context of full time.He just said that it was being discussed.
That may be correct, but wasn't his reasoning that that conversation was the catalyst for Sheila doing what he claims she did? Why would she be so concerned at the prospect of day fostering, the boys had had it before.
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That may be correct, but wasn't his reasoning that that conversation was the catalyst for Sheila doing what he claims she did? Why would she be so concerned at the prospect of day fostering, the boys had had it before.
Did Jeremy suggest that the talk of fostering may have caused Sheila to go 'beserk' or is that another assumption. I know he said June and Neville were having a conversation about it and that Sheila wasn't participating.
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Did Jeremy suggest that the talk of fostering may have caused Sheila to go 'beserk' or is that another assumption. I know he said June and Neville were having a conversation about it and that Sheila wasn't participating.
I believe that was his argument yes, but accept that I may have picked that up from one of the theories posted here.
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You could use this argument to explain Sheila's alleged rampage about any subject then, if she had no rational thought?
Roch, when she was at WHF she had help with the children already. If it is a mothers help being approached then this was no different from before. And I simply do not believe that the bamber's would ever have contemplated voluntarily placing them in care, nor had they any right to.
I know someone in a similar position as Sheila was. She has a daughter but also had a problem with drugs at the time and so without the permission of the child's father the child was put into the care of the grandmother and grandfather. This young woman must now get a court order to get back the custody of her child.
I should think that Ralph and June with Colin's permission could have got custody of Sheila and Colin's children and also have them fostered out? It might have proved to be a long process though?
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Hi Grahame,,,Another tricky area. Grandparents have rights concerning the welfare of their grandchildren,and it's usual for social services to take this preferred route rather than to foster the children out. Foster care is a last resort if you like,,where, if there is known proof that the children are in danger,then a court order is used to gain access to collect the children.
If the children concerned did go into a foster home, then a signature of one of the parents would have been necessary in order to meet the voluntary requirements.
In that case you know about Grahame,yes,the mother will have to get a court order in which to get back her daughter,as the childs' mother will have to prove to the court that the child isn't neglected in any way,,but the court then have to be satisfied that the mother is attending a rehabilitation programme in order to wean her off drugs so that she can devote her time to the welfare of the child.
If the Bambers' had gained custody of the twins,they wouldn't have been put into care,unless June felt that she couldn't cope,then the law wouldn't have allowed an adoption in the first place.
Had they have still been alive,there would have been support for the children from social services which would have saved them from going into care,always supposing they'd have been living with their father.
Why is it that the children always suffer in times of divorce,separation,etc etc.? It's criminal. It's cruel.
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I believe that was his argument yes, but accept that I may have picked that up from one of the theories posted here.
Isn't it likely that the theory in question was introduced in the aftermath of the incident, when people tried to piece together what had took place?
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Isn't it likely that the theory in question was introduced in the aftermath of the incident, when people tried to piece together what had took place?
Yes, entirely likely, you see people doing that throughout this case and from both sides of the fence. What I'm unclear on is whether or not it's a theory that Jeremy himself has also put forward.
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June was also trying to persuade Sheila to take a 'holiday' in a care home in Bournemouth. This and talk of the fostering may have seemed to Sheila's psychotic mind that they were trying to have her committed and have her children taken away from her.
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June was also trying to persuade Sheila to take a 'holiday' in a care home in Bournemouth. This and talk of the fostering may have seemed to Sheila's psychotic mind that they were trying to have her committed and have her children taken away from her.
Good point, Lebaleb.
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that letter, had brought afew tears to my eyes! :-[ poor Sheila aww I wish I could give her a hug from behind. :'(